breaking news aeronauts divers find the bodies of over one hundred people trapped inside of pleasure boats but sank in just minutes on russia's volga river recovery efforts are underway. distraught relatives and friends have gathered desperate for information about their loved ones most of accounts given by survivors reports of many children being trapped inside the ship as a plane. many theories are being investigated as to why the but certain crew such terrible consequences overcrowding thank goodness recklessness of the crew incident

. but next to people of ellen his guests in debates when the strange and it's a massacre sixteen years ago is being used today as a political to cross-talk is next. live. lives. can. start. to. flow and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the world remembers the tragic events the developer needs a dutch court rules that peacekeepers task to protect civilians during the bosnian conflict failed in their duties sixteen years on do we have

a fair and balanced interpretation of this war and we have a proper memory for all victims. lives. can. start. to cross out the bosnian conflict i'm joined by mohammed shakopee he's a former bosnian ambassador to the u.n. and in london we cross to me should i be all that she is a political expert on the balkans all right gentlemen crosstalk rules are in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want me schiff i can go to you first today is the sixteenth anniversary official anniversary of events that occurred in seventy two are you satisfied mainstream media portrays those events and we can use tragic events or i can you can use whatever you want but how do you feel that the description of that anniversary is being understood understood today. well i've been hoping for the last sixteen years the way that it has to be represented lead to start out with its description of the worst the war crime in europe since the

second world war the worst war crime in the second world war was the crime of aggression by nazi germany against a neighboring state that was not decided by meat was decided by the nuremberg tribunal that action has been repeated in europe by the bonding of the federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states that is the worst war crime for me and this war crime if you're going to call it that when it's our last about three or four dates so it's a military operation in which some crimes have have to have certainly taken place but they have to be defined very much more closely and the word massacre is used in connection with seven eight some and then also the word genocide and these are two very distinct terms massacre you know does not have to be illegal in a war it is certainly illegal if one massacres of women and children or let's say

prisoners of war which of orderly surrendered but if it is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as as often happened in a war and then that can also be called a massacre we have to distinguish between executions which is a deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which are certainly occurred in the case of servants and the other big problem of course is the word general site because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of genocide of the jews during the second let me show you the let me legally ambassador here mr ambassador do you know how to what point you agree or disagree with whitney she just said because he doesn't like to use the term genocide massacre when it comes to civil needs of it that's how mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court

of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the for me it was lobby in the hague has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine that's subsequent to what happened in srebrenica so when we talk about the worst act the worst war crime since world war two i think strabane it's more than appropriate but i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create purely at bickley clear serb territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of international law and today's political standards. i'm afraid that

while we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade and its proxy forces in bosnia herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you took the russian and and the german conflict in world war two many germans suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations are quite comparable ok i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just wanted to say but the international court of justice. in the case of bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of yugoslavia only again so b.

has decided that was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened i'm afraid you are case you are the court did not excuse me the court did not decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one that there was genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you're not going to go further to condemn ok me should jump in you can refine that already anyway do. i agree i was a big issue here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be acquitted by the way prevented it out of them making an act of aggression and having. the forces of event federal republic yugoslavia invasion general and a lot of each and selling to anything well sorry i know you'll be watching so i'll

just say that it's like an officer. go ahead yes well he did you know me i did himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive this pension even after he retired from serbia so there was more than adequate could command and control and in fact there is a trial now that is concluding general mom she locked parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events surrounding serb in its end the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international humanitarian law where serbia was directly involved ok me should go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all there are some tenuous connections you have with mr move with mr milosevic mr lardy was in fact a general within the janeway of the yugoslav national army which when it broke up

in the conflicts or family or the civil war in bosnia actually became commander of the forces of the bosnian serbs into bosnian conflict i have to say that although i know that people always want to involve belgrade. ok sorry i'll me i'll have my mission continuing my case i've not been for upping you all the time the international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr amin washroom each of the prosecution which also claimed that belgrade and hence mr b. lusher which were involved in the creation of greater serbia in bosnia actually dropped officially the case of greater serbia they they dropped it i can give you that space the precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here a situation that is being ignored all the time but there has not been

a case of greater serbia it has been a case of. foreign intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by falling power we have the largest u.s. military base in kosovo being constructed after they have been illegally invaded and occupied the region the largest. airport military airport in bosnia this is the port has been taken over by the united states during the war and muslim luggage is actual crime if i dare say so was actually quite mature on the sixteenth of may ninety ninety two some three years before srebrenica and that was blowing up in the area of bihar church one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe the one that the americans and nato wanted to have but the one that the yugoslavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check of course point out that yugoslavia was

a an alliance state and did not belong to either site that was muslim law which is actual crime living and any other crimes have been added to subsequent subsequently to the ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension that means salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if you would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide his true allegiances as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with gentlemen. today and a verdict will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to

speak of that we're to speak air what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i'll be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected zone of srebrenica that was betrayed by the u.s. by france by the u.k. at least by the officials of those countries when they made fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the dutch peace create peacekeepers to intervene with air support once those once the survey it's a safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevic and law which to create new facts on the ground to in effect create an ethically partition bosnia and

herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come quite we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. we need to spread the needs of victims because they were victims during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i would have to judge here it's very interesting to hear what we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion and separates a state with thirty. k. street. and the. first cream removal cold clear cutting. second

explosives are used to plastic a deeper than the period. shirt the remains are removed by machinery. find it easy on board so it is deposited in vallecito. have. been troubling it on the cheap. if. would be so much price and if you want someone from funds to impressions. please for instance hot seat belts come.

can you. say. welcome back to cross talk you know about to remind you we're talking about several needs that sixteen years are. taking.

ok michel if i can go back to you in london there is no doubt that there to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really refutes that but my question is and remembering that all the victims of that war remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. there is a precedent for that you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany. of the then or yugoslav state it's a very simple process you know the invader of the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes half the

country to be the enemy to be the bad is and the other half the goodies so you you on them you you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army skinner all over that is what mr hitler's army and his axis powers did and every single statement at the time in the german vulcan shells their film phil newsreels in the focus should be all bucked the nazi newspaper stated that and as far as i can see nato is basically just repeated that divide the country and monks the serbs were of approximately forty percent of the population. and. the other this creator f. activia conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for takeoff in every single case of the the sites that were being supported were those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states courage

just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to understand that in that context the try. you know its main purpose here and also srebrenica which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and that certainly here from london i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this divide in the whole basis it is standard those people who know about it can

easily recognize it on the territory if you could not get the good news on the bad is the serbs about this so they have to present it in that way ok mr ambassador very good do you do you think all of the victims of that conflict there are properly remembered because again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess there will. be the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and are they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never have. aggressor in this war i consider to belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as a regime i actually do not only knowledge of but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serves as a nationality who defend it sorry it only defended bosnia herzegovina probably one

of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero of the defense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic galls me and it's a given in general you have on b.v.i. there were many others in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not relevant as that issue of straw benita it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence and most of these crimes including stepan it's a happened and i should also point out that structure needs is the one that stands

out the most not because the numbers there were even higher numbers of people killed in places like prayed or in the sugar out. this threat stands out because of a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch into rackley to. general and his forces directly but what about their betrayal of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's where we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serb and cried and so many of the victims who were of mixed

ethnicity as well as bosnia crowbars the in muslim because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would seek to destroy bosnia this med to lead and create technically pure territories from it and that's the only differentiation that i'm i spoke a son here ok do you think seventy three is the correct signifier of the out war is that is that is that the best way to define the tragedy of what happened to bosnia . each is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have to come back just to get to the background that mr sasabe is talked about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude as being victims so upset only victims

by the way if i do not know which is in some cases acted against and while that may be your position but you know i follow b.b.c. i followed him and i live here in the west capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one side of the story of the tribunal has been set up that way but maybe i'm here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry but i want to see a look at the tribunal tells us that it wants to pursue it exists in order to ensure that justice is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know it has two parts and three parts if you like it has the part of the prosecution it is the part of the defense and the defense must be given at least the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us

a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which is now operated for just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point of your defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raised the threat but it's a indictment on several occasions here in london. i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color the ponto in the middle should we struggle he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. represent n tiley the case for the prosecution if you're a prosecution justice and basically you have a leech and it is very clear that they have to basically to present here fighting policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue of mr only. if we had if we have jet is not as easy which is amazing ok mr ambassador go ahead.

i think the point here is that you're confusing the serve people with milosevich law which carriage which if that's the road that you take then you are in effect condemning the sir people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serb people bet as a do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and for what their regime did to what extent the serve people want to in fact confirm those crimes as their own it's by your own discussion right now that you're doing that and you are adopting what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and it's been applied cheech the former president of republika srpska

she in fact said to both the general. and to charles situ is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said for the sake of the serve people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the advice of the serve people and i will remind the world today that without the work of such brave people as natasha can beach in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian prisoners and seventy neither the swirled nor the sir sir people themselves for that matter that mr minister the media and many of his room was behind those animals time and we should like to give you the last word on the program go ahead by thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop

. the the true focus they can place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution's side the issue of the people who are indicted and the case of billion up life situations just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty to what plead guilty to western and nato actions ations while they're there they're tall in the netherlands one is going to plead guilty if mean formation is available and such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and s to a regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a largest refugee group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry. to time your thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching this year on r d c the next time we remember rostock rules.

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