a nuremberg tribunal that action has been repeated in europe by the bombing of the federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states that is the worst war crime for me this war crime if you're going to call it that last about three or four days so it's a military operation in which some crimes have certainly taken place but they have to be defined very much more closely the word massacre is used in connection with robyn and so but then also the word genocide these are two very distinct terms massacre you know does not have to be illegal you know war is certainly illegal if one massacre of women and children or let's say prison a sort of war which orderly surrendered but if there is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as often happened in a war then that can also be called massacre we have to distinguish between

executions which is a deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which are certainly occurred in the case of servants and the other big problem of course is the word genocide because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of genocide of the jews during the second and what it means to me i mean let me let me go to the ambassador here mr ambassador do you know how to what point do you agree or disagree with what me she just said because he doesn't like to use the term genocide massacre when it comes to bernita but that's how mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the former yugoslavia in the hague has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in

one nine hundred ninety nine that's subsequent to what happened in srebrenica so when we talk about the war stacked the warse war crime since world war two i think srebrenica is more than appropriate but i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create purely at the cli clear serb territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of international law and today's political standards i'm afraid that while we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade

and its proxy forces in bosnia herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you took the russian and and the german conflict in world war two many germans suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations are quite comparable ok me i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just want to do so for the international court of justice. in the case of bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of yugoslavia only against has decided that was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened i'm afraid you are case you are the court did not excuse me the court did not

decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one that there was genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you're not going to go further to condemn ok me should jump and you can reply no really any way do you go ahead and jump in i agree it is a big issue here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be a quote of by the way prevented that all of them making an act of aggression on having. the forces of the then federal be called invasion general and lobby to sell into anything well sorry i know nobody thinks this was an officer. go ahead may well he did gentlemen himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive this pension even after he

retired from serbia so there was more than adequate command and control and in fact there is a trial now that is concluding our general mom sheila parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events surrounding serban its end the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international military law where serbia was directly involved ok mishit go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all there are some tenuous connections here with mr bit with mr milosevic missed on a lot of each was in fact a general within the jna of the yugoslav national army which when it broke up in the complex or fully of the civil war in bosnia actually became commander of the forces off of the bosnian serbs into a conflict but i have to say that although i know that people always want to involve belgrade it is not going to negotiate here just

a sorry allow me to continue to enjoy my case i have not been interrupting you all the time the international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr amin loss of each the prosecution which also claimed that belgrade and hence mr milosevic were involved in the creation of greater serbia in boston actually dropped officially the case of great to be they they dropped it i can give you the speech the precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here a situation that is being ignored all the time but there has not been a case of greater serbia it has been a case of. foreign intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by foreign power we have the largest u.s. military base in kosovo being constructed after they have been illegally invaded

and occupied the region the largest. airport military airports in boston area this is the airport has been taken over by the united states during the war and mr lederach is actual crime if i dare say so was actually quote on the sixteenth of may ninety ninety two some three years before srebrenica and that was blowing up in the area of because each one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe the one that the americans and nato wanted to have but the one that the yugoslavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check with of course a point out that yugoslavia was a l. ner line state and did not belong to either site that was missed in law which is actual crime let me know any other crimes have been added to sub sub circles subsequently to ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman law

which has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension that means salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if you would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide his true allegiances as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with general. today and the verdict will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to speak of that were to speak here what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i'll be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected

zone of srebrenica that was betrayed by the u.s. by france by the u.k. at least by the fishes of those countries when they made fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the dutch peace create peacekeepers to intervene with air support once those once the servants a safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevic and law which to create new facts on the ground to in effect create an ethnically partition bosnia-herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come point we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. we need to spread beneath the victims because they were victims

during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here it's very interesting to hear what we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on seventy two state with r.t. . and if you still. want to go. first a creepy removal called clear cut. second explosives are used to blast to be heard in the clear. third the remains are removed by machinery. finally the fund wanted soil is deposited in vallecito.

modern tub legal on offer to. russia would be soon which brightened if you need monsoon from feinstein freshens. screens for instance on t.v. dot com.

and you can see. welcome back to cross talk you know about to remind you we're talking about several needs in sixteen years on. education. ok michel if i go back to you in london there is no doubt of it to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really refutes that but my question is i'm remembering that or all the victims of that war

remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. there is a precedent to it you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany of the then at all yugoslav state it's a very simple process you know the invader of the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes you declare half the country to be the enemy to be the baddies and the other half the goodies so you arm them your way you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army is going to roll over that is what mr hitler's army and his axis powers did and every single

statement at the time in the german vulcan shells the film fell newsreels in the fall to show bell bucked the nazi newspaper stated that and as far as i can see nato is basically just repeated that divide the country amongst the serbs who are of approximately forty percent of the population. and and the other this creator f. activia conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for takeover in every single case of the the sites that we have been supported where those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states can i just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is

the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to understand that in that context they try. bunol it's main purpose here and also srebrenica which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and certainly here from london i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this divide and rule basis it is standard those people who know about it can easily recognize it on the telly today if yugoslavia the good news on the bad is the sub sub out is so they have to be presented in that way ok mr ambassador franco do you do you think all of the victims of that conflict are properly remembered because

again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess i will the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never have the aggressor in this war i consider to belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as a regime i actually do not only knowledge but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serbs as a nationality who defended sarajevo and defended bosnia herzegovina probably one of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero defense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic bosnia and herzegovina in general you have on d.v.r. there were many of those in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring

the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not relevant as to the issue of srebrenica it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence most of these crimes including serbia needs to happen and i should also point out the strip it needs is the one that stands out the most not because the numbers there were even higher numbers of people killed in places like korea door in. the seventy stands out because of a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as

a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch indirectly to. general and his forces directly but what about their betrayal of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's where we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serb and cried and so many of the victims who were of mixed ethnicity as well as bosnia the in muslim because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would

seek to destroy bosnia this med to lead and create ethnically pure territories from it and that's the only differentiation that i myself focus on here ok do you think seventy is the correct signifier of the war is that is that is that the best way to define the tragedy what happened to bosnia. is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have to come back just to the background that mr sasabe has talked about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude as being victims so that only victims by the way if i do not share which is in some case acted against them well that may be open but you know i follow b.b.c. i follow him and i live here in a western capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one

side of the story of the tribunal has been set up by the way but maybe i'm here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry i want to see look the tribunal tells us that it wants to sue it exists in order to ensure that justice is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know it it has two parts and three parts if you like it has the part of the prosecution it has the part of a defense and the defense must be given at least the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which has now operated for a just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point a few of the defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in

london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raise the threat in saying dikembe and on several occasions here in london i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color don't want to in the middle should we struggle he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. represent n tiley the case for the prosecution if you have prosecution justice and basically you have a lynch and it is very clear that they have to basically to present here foreign policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue and then. if we had if we have those jet is not the issue which is amazing here ok mr ambassador go ahead. i think the point here is that you're confusing the serve people with milosz of h h carriage it if that's the road that you take then you are in effect condemning the

serve people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serb people that as i do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and for what their regime did to what extent the server people want to in fact confirm those crimes as their own it's by your own discussion right right now that you're doing that and you are adopting what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and it's billion up the former president of republika srpska she in fact said to both the general. and to charset you is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said for the sake of the

server people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the acts of the serve people and i will remind the world today that without the work of such brave people as in the tosh i can ditch in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian prisoners and servants that neither the world nor the service serve people themselves for that matter but i'm sure mr image and many of his room was kind of those animals and i to give you the last word on the program go ahead about thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop. the the truth that has taken place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution's side of the issue of the people who are indicted and the case of billionaire plush which is just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty

to what plead guilty to western and nato actions ations why they're there they're told in the netherlands one is going to plead guilty if the information is available and such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and s. to regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a largest refugee group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry. thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. hungry for the full story we've got it. the biggest issues get

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breaking news. the bodies of more than a hundred people have been found trapped inside a pleasure cruiser just minutes on. witnesses report children trapped inside the sinking ship joins us from the scene of the rescue operation in just a moment. leave your goals. for me don't. let your relatives are devastated fearing they may never see their loved ones again. the ship was not sea worthy that's the only conclusion of an investigation into the disaster which points to some sort of mechanical failure. down such disastrous consequences.

you're watching live from moscow straight to our top story now divers have found the bodies of more than one hundred people around thirty of them children trapped inside a pleasure cruiser that sank on russia's. so far twelve people have been officially confirmed dead from sunday's tragedy in republic of tatarstan search and rescue teams worked throughout the night in the recovery operation continues today he's tom barton is monitoring the efforts. the hunt is still on going for any possible survivors the count that the emergencies ministry has set up behind me next to the volga on a small beach here small boats keep coming to and from this site and they're part of the largest search effort this is screening the area where the area river pleasure cruiser sank to try and find any people either in the water below that looks looking increasingly unlikely now or scattered on some of the small islands

around where the boat sank we heard from one of their spokesman earlier about what they found when they reached the scene of the sunken pleasure cruiser. knocked on the boat's hole and waited for an answer but unfortunately there was nothing they flashlights into the cargo hold so the restrooms bodies there for the scene that unfolded yesterday was one of a quiet sunday afternoon river cruise along the volga many many people do this is very popular among tourists in the summer to travel along the volga in pleasure cruises upstream with its final destination there were many children on board the ship it seems maybe a third of the passengers. on board the ship were children just hours just before the ship began to sank sink a group of about thirty children had gathered on one of the upper decks in the play room to hold either a party or.