life. video on demand. mind old girls. and r.s.s. feeds now with the palm of your. comb. continuing our breaking news coverage here on our t.v. easier headlines the rescue that's now recovery effort divers retrieving more victims from the doomed pleasure cruiser that sank on sunday in the boulder river in russia's republic of tatarstan. good evening gold coast child's remains no matter what they believe that the number of those confirmed dead stands at sixty five as shocked relatives struggle to come to terms with how their loved ones were dragged to their deaths within minutes. russia's president orders those responsible

for the tragedy to be found and punished blaming the disaster on their credit barges cruising the country's one. next peter labelling gas debate whether the us robber needs a massacre sixteen years ago is being used today as a political tool crosstalk coming up next. live. lives. can. flow in welcome across talk on people about as the world remembers the tragic events that befell supper needs a judge court rules that peacekeepers task to protect civilians during the bosnian conflict failed in their duties sixteen years on we have

a fair and balanced interpretation of this war and we have a proper memory for all victims. can. live. across not the bosnian conflict i'm joined by mohammed chocolatey he's a former bosnian ambassador to the u.n. and in london we cross to me should i be all that she is a political expert on the balkans all right gentlemen crosstalk rules are in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want me should i go to you first today is the sixteenth anniversary official anniversary of events that occurred in cyber needs are you satisfied how mainstream media portrays those events and we can use tragic events or i can you can use whatever you want but how do you feel that the description of that anniversary is being understood understood today. well i've been hoping for the last sixteen years the way that it has been represented let us start out with its description was the worst the war crime in europe since so the

second world war the worst war crime in the second world war was the crime of aggression by nazi germany against a neighboring state but that was not decided by meat was decided by the nuremberg tribunal that action has been repeated in europe by the bonding of the federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states and that is the worst war crime for me in this war crime if you're going to call it that so it's troubling it's our last about three or four dates so it's a military operation in which some crimes have have certainly taken place but they have to be defined very much more closely and the word massacre is used in connection with robin it's a but then also the word genocide and these are two very distinct terms and massacre you know does not have to be illegal you know war is certainly illegal if one massacres of women and children or let's say prison

a sort of war which of orderly surrendered but if there is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as often happens in a war and then that can also be called massacre we have to distinguish between executions which is deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which are certainly occurred in the case of servants and the other big problem of course is the word general site because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of the genocide of the jews during the second or at least really any let me legally ambassador here mr ambassador do you know how to what point you agree or disagree with what he she just said because he doesn't like to use the term genocide massacre when it comes to release of it that's how mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the former

yugoslavia hate has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine that subsequent to what happened it's sort of been eats up so when we talk about the war stacked the worst war crime since world war two i think srebrenica is more than appropriate but i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create purely at weekly clear serb territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of international law and today's political

standards. i'm afraid that while we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade and its proxy forces in bosnia-herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you took the russian and and they german conflict in world war two and many german suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations are quite comparable ok i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just wanted to say with the international court of justice. in the case of bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of

yugoslavia only again so b.-o. has decided was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened in sirte i'm afraid you are case you are the court did not excuse me the court did not decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one that there was genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you know so it's very hard to go further to condemn ok me should jump in you can reply in that way do. i agree i was a big issue here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be acquitted by the way prevented it out of them by committing an act of aggression on having. the forces of the event for a little bit more because slavia invasion in general and lively should sell into anything well sorry i know nobody should sell joe francis was an officer.

meanwhile he just an old bloodied himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive this pension even after he retired from serbia so there was more than adequate command and control and in fact there is a trial now that is concluding general mom she lost parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events surrounding serbian its in the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international military law where serbia was directly involved ok mishi go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all there are some tenuous connections here with mr gould with mr love each misnomer was in fact a general within janeway of the yugoslav national army which when it broke up in

the context of of a civil war in bosnia actually became commander off of the forces of the bosnian serbs into bosnian conflict i have to say that although i know that people always want to involve belgrade. ok sorry allow me i had my mission to your point i case i have not been for upping you all the time the international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr me last year which the prosecution which also claimed that belgrade and hence mr milosevic were involved in the creation of greater serbia in boston or actually dropped officially the case of greater serbia they dropped it i can give you the space the precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here a situation that is being ignored all the time but it has not been

a case of greater serbia it has been like a soft. foreign intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by a foreign power we have the largest u.s. military base in kosovo being constructed after they have been illegally invaded and occupied the region the largest. airport military airport in bosnia this is the port has been taken over by the united states during the war and missed on luggage is actual crime if i dare say so was actually called on the sixteenth of may ninety nine feet to some three years before srebrenica and that was growing up in the area of the which one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe we wondered the americans and nato wanted to have but the one that the yugoslavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check of course or point out that yugoslavia was a on a line state and did not belong to either side that was missed in logic is actual

crime. any other crime so we added a sub sub circle starting really to ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman law that has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension means salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if you would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide his true allegiances as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with gentlemen. today and a verdict will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to

speak of that we're to speak air what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i'll be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected zone of srebrenica that was betrayed by the u.s. by france by the u.k. at least by the officials of those countries when they in fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the dutch peace create peacekeepers to intervene with the air support once those once the mate's a safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevic and law which to create a new facts on the ground to in effect create an ethnically partition bosnia and

herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come point we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. he to seventy eight's of victims because they were victims during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i'm going to have to judge any yes very interesting to hear what we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion i'm so ready to state with our team. slump can you see the sofa. first the cream in the old cold a clear cut. second explosives are used to blast the movie for the jurors.

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can i say. welcome back to cross talk you know about to remind you we're talking about severe need to sixteen years on. kick. start. ok michel if i go back to you in london there is no doubt of it to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really refutes that but my question is i'm remembering all the victims of that war remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. so there

is a precedent for that you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany. the then. yugoslav state it's a very simple process you know the invader of the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes you declare half the country to be the enemy to be the baddies and the other half the goodies so you arm them your way you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army scum and all of that is what mr hitler's army and he is axis powers did and every single statement at the time in the german shells their film film newsreels in the focus should be all bucked the nazi newspaper stated that and as far as i can see nato is basically

just repeated that divide the country and once the serbs were of approximately forty percent of the population. and. the others creator f. actively a conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for takeoff in every single case of the sites that were being supported were those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states courage just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to

understand it in that context the try. main purpose here and also srebrenica which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and certainly here from london i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this new vide in the role basis and the standards those people who know about it can easily recognise it on the thirty to if you're just an obvious the good isn't about is the serbs about it so they have to be presented in that way ok mr ambassador i'm going to you do you think all of the victims of that conflict are properly remembered because again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess i will. the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never

have the aggressor in this war i consider to belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as a regime i actually do not only knowledge but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serves as a nationality who defend it so are you going to defend the bosnia-herzegovina probably one of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero of defense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic bosnia and herzegovina in general you have on b.v.i. there were many of those in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create

ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not relevant as to the issue of straw benita it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence most of these crimes including seven need to happen and i should also point out that structure needs is the one that stands out the most not because the numbers they were even higher numbers of people killed in places like prayed or in the shagrat and the survey needs to stretch stands out because of a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch interactively to. general and his forces

directly but what about their betrayal of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's where we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serbian kroc and so many of the victims who are of mixed ethnicity as well as bosnia crowbars the in muslim because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would seek to destroy bosnia this med to lead and create technically pure care authorities from it and that's the only differentiation that i spoke a son here ok do you think seventy three is the correct signifier about war is that

is that is that the best way to define the tragedy what happened to bosnia. each is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have i have to come back just to the background mr sasabe is talking about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude as being victims so only victims by the way if i do not sure which is in some cases acted against them well that may be your position but you know i follow b.b.c. i followed him and i live here in a western capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one side of the story of the tribunal has been set up that way but majorly in here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry i want to see a look at the tribunal tells us that it wants true to exist in order to ensure that

justice is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know it has two parts and three parts if you like he has the part of the prosecution it is the part of the defense and the defense must be given to police the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which has now operated for a just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point of your defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raised the same document on several occasions here in london. i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color the ponto in the middle should be

strong he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. represent n tiley the case for the prosecution if you are a prosecution justice and basically you have a lynch and it is very clear that they have to basically to present your foreign policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue mr nearly as i said but if we had if we have jet is not the issue which is missing here ok mr ambassador go ahead. i think the point here is that you're confusing the syrupy people with milosevich carriage which if pets the road that you take then you are in effect condemning to serve people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serve people that is a do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable

before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and for what their regime did to what extent the serve people want to in fact confirm those crimes is their own it's by your own discussion right right now that you're doing that and you are adopting what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and it's been applied cheech the former president of republika srpska she in fact said to go to general melodic and to char situ is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said for the sake of the serve people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the acts of the serve people and i

will remind the world today that without the work of such brave people as in the thai shop can ditch in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian prisoners and seventy neither the swirled nor the surface people themselves for that matter that mr mr major and many of his response to the crime was animal time and we should like to get the last word in the program go ahead about thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop. initially of the truth but it's taken place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution's side the issue of the people who are indicted and the case of be an awful option should just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty to what plead guilty to western and nato actions ations why they're there they're told in the netherlands one is going to plead guilty if the information is available and

such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and s. to regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a largest refugee group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry your time here oh thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. still. hungry for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice ceased to face with the news makers on the party.

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