federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states that is the worst war crime for me this war crime if you're going to call it that lasted about three or four days so it's a military operation in which some crimes have certainly taken place but they have to be defined very much more closely the word massacre is used in connection with robyn and so but then also the word genocide these are two very distinct terms massacre you know does not have to be illegal you know war is certainly illegal if one massacre of women and children or let's say prison of of war which of orderly surrendered but if there is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as as often happened in a war and then that can also be called massacre we have to distinguish between executions which is a deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which are

certainly occurred in the case of servants and the other big problem of course is the word genocide because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of genocide of the jews during the second one i mean really i mean let me let me go to the ambassador here mr ambassador do you how to what point do you agree or disagree with what me she just said because he doesn't like to use the term genocide massacre when it comes to bring it's a big that's how mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the former yugoslavia in the hague has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in one nine hundred ninety nine that's subsequent to what happened in

srebrenica so when we talk about the war stacked the war swar crime since world war two i think strabane it's is more than appropriate but i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create purely at the cli clear serb territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of international law and today's political standards i'm afraid that while we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade and its proxy forces in bosnia herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you

took the russian and and they german conflict in world war two many german suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations are quite comparable ok michelle i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just want to do so for the international court of justice. in the case of bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of yugoslavia only against has decided that was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened i'm afraid you are the court did not excuse me the court did not decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one that there was

genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you know if there's any point to go further to condemn ok me should jump and you can reply no way do. i agree i think this year here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be a quote of by the way prevented that all of them making an act of aggression and having. the forces of the then federal be called because slavia invasion general and lobby and sell into anything well sorry i know you don't think this was an officer. go ahead may well he didn't owe me a lot is himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive his pension even after he retired from serbia so there was more than adequate command and control and in

fact there is a trial now that is concluding general mom sheila parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events surrounding serbian its in the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international military law where serbia was directly involved ok mishi go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all there are some tenuous connections here with mr bit with mr milosevic missed on a lot of each was in fact a general within the jna of the yugoslav national army which when it broke up in the context or fully of the civil war in bosnia actually became commander of the forces off of the bosnian serbs in an into a conflict but i have to say that although i know that people always want to involve belgrade it is not going to negotiate i am sorry allow me had my mission continue to enjoy my case i have not been interrupting you all the time the

international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr middle age the prosecution which also claimed that belgrade and hence mr milosevic were involved in the creation of greater serbia in boston or actually dropped officially the case of greater serbia they they dropped it i can give you the space of the precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here a situation that is being ignored all the time but there has not been a case of greater serbia it has been a case of. foreign intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by foreign power we have the largest u.s. military base in kosovo being constructed after they have been illegally invaded and occupied the region the largest. airport military airports in boston area

this is the airport has been taken over by the united states during the war and mr lederach is actual crime if i dare say so was actually quite make it on the sixteenth of may ninety ninety two some three years before srebrenica and that was blowing up in the area of because each one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe the one that the americans and nato wanted to have but the one that the yugoslavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check with of course a point out that yugoslavia was a l. ner line state and did not belong to either site that was mr lederach is actual crime let me know any other crimes have been added to sub sub circles subsequently to ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman law that has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension that

means salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if you would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide his true allegiances as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with general. today and the verdict will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to speak of that we're to speak here what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i'll be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected zone of strive benita that was betrayed by the u.s.

by france by the u.k. at least by the officials of those countries when they made fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the dutch peace create peacekeepers to intervene with air support once those once the survey to safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevic and law which to create new facts on the ground to in effect create an ethnically partition bosnia-herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come point we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. we need to spread but it's a victims because they were victims during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here this very interesting to hear

what we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on seventy two state with darky. first tree removal called the clear cut. second explosives are used to blast compete for the there's a. church in the remains are removed by machinery. find it easy for someone who is deposited in valley feel.

on a. will . bring you the latest in science and technology from around russia. we've got the future of coverage. and you can. still. welcome back to crosstalk i'm here about to remind you we're talking about seventy percent sixteen years on. and you can see. ok michel if i can go back to you in london there is no doubt of that to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really

refutes that but my question is i'm remembering that or all the victims of that war remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. so there is a precedent to it you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany of the then at all yugoslav state it's a very simple process you know the invader of the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes you declare half the country to be the enemy to be the baddies and the other half the goodies so you arm them your way you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army is going to roll

over that is what mr hitler's army and his axis policy did and every single statement at the time in the german vulcan shells the film fell newsreels in the focus should be all buffed up the nazi newspaper stated that and as far as i can see nato has basically just repeated that divide the country amongst the serbs were approximately forty percent of the population. and and the other this creator f. activity of conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for takeover in every single case of the the sites that were being supported where those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states can i just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is

the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to understand that in that context they try. bunol its main purpose here and also srebrenica which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and certainly here from london i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this divide and rule basis it is standard those people who know about it can easily recognize it on the telly today if yugoslavia the good news and the bad is the serbs about is so they have to be presented in that way ok mr ambassador vango do you do you think all of the victims of that conflict are properly remembered

because again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess they will the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and are they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never have the aggressor in this war i consider to belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as a regime i actually do not only acknowledge it but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serbs as a nationality who defend that sarajevo and it defended bosnia herzegovina probably one of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero defense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic bosnia and herzegovina in general you have on d.v.r.

there were many others in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not relevant as to the issue of srebrenica it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence most of these crimes including struggle needs to happen and i should also point out the strip it needs is the one that stands out the most not because the numbers there were even higher numbers of people killed in places like prayed or in. the serbian it's a straight stands out because of

a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch indirectly to. general and his forces directly but what about their betrayal of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's what we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serb and cry and so many of the victims who are of mixed ethnicity as well as bosniak or bosnian muslims because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same

light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would seek to destroy bosnia this med to lead and create ethnically pure territories from it and that's the only differentiation that i myself focus on here ok do you think seventy two is the correct signifier of the war is that is that is that the best way to define the tragedy what happened to bosnia. is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have to come back just to get to the background that mr sosebee is talked about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude as being victims so that only victims by the way if i do not share which is in some cases acted against them well that may be open but you know i follow b.b.c. i followed him and i live here in a western capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one

side of the story of the tribunal has been set up by the way but maybe i'm here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry i want to see look the tribunal tells us that it wants true to exists in order to ensure that justice is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know eight it has two parts and three parts if you like it has the part of the prosecution it has the part of a defense and the defense must be given at least the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which has now operated for a just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point

a few of the defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raised the threat in saying dikembe and on several occasions here in london i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color the font in the middle should be strong he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. represent n. tiley the case for the prosecution if you are a prosecution justice and basically you have a lynch and it is very clear that they have to basically to present here foreign policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue and then the letters are so big but if we had if we have those jet is not as easy which is a nice saying here ok mr ambassador go ahead. i think the point here is that you're confusing the serve people with milosz of h h carriage which if that's the

road that you take then you are in effect condemning the serve people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serb people that as i do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and for what their regime did to what extent the serve people want to in fact confirm those crimes is their own it's by your own discussion right right now that you're doing that and you are adopting what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and it's been a plot the former president of republika srpska she in fact said to both the general. and to charles situ is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said

for the sake of the server people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the acts of the serve people and i will remind the world today that without the work of such brave people as in the tosh i can beach in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian prisoners and servants that neither the world nor the service serve people themselves for that matter that mr minister let me jump in here because we're almost out of time most animals and i to go in the last hour in the program go ahead about thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop. the the truth that has taken place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution's side of the issue of the people who are indicted and the case

of b. and a plush which is just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty to what plead guilty to western and nato actions ations why they're there they're told in the netherlands one is going to plead guilty if the information is available and such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and s to a regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a largest refugee group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry your time here oh thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. hungry for the full story we've got it. the biggest issues get

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breaking news on r.t. divers make the tragic discovery of up to fourteen children's bodies inside the some complex cruiser in central russia down in minutes killing around half of the two hundred seventy on board. hopes. for a change of finding people alive from the sunken ship but the search now goes on to extract the bodies from under the water present it says those responsible for the tragedy are going to be found and prosecuted as he believes the vessel was not in a condition to say just the details and just. go to dinner with both postmarked charles remain no matter. whether his struggles as hollow loved ones were dragged to the death with a bold carry a sign can open water during a weekend. tree.

welcome you're watching r t from moscow it's midnight now my name is kevin owen and first divers have found the bodies of up to forty children trapped in a room on the sunken pleasure cruiser on the volga river two hundred seven people were on board the boat when it capsized around half of them have perished barton is near the rescue operation h.q. in tatarstan. the people here have been waiting hour upon hour with their heads down they haven't wanted to talk to was the media some of them may be related to these young victims some of them to other victims on board the boat some of them may still not have heard about the people they love but this is certainly a great blow and puts a lot of confirmation to the fears of rescuers and their like none of those children inside that room managed to escape to try and glance back at the journey

that this pope took it was sailing along the volga river popular river cruise location lots of lots of people on the weekends and on the holidays and some a light to go along that when the boat got very rapidly into trouble and when i say very rapidly the whole thing had gone underwater in under three minutes this is what gave rise to such a terrible death toll of the fact that people didn't even have time to put on their life jackets or to organize a proper kind of evacuation before the water was on them or they had to jump into the water one of the relatives of victims on the boat earlier spoke about the ordeal that she has been through. the baldwins a bet there are three of them in the cabin my son my daughter in law and my grandson my son said he tried to open the cabin door holding his child when the wave crashed into them and he lost grip of my grandson he said he swim towards the light and made it out alive by.