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market. what's really happening to the global economy max cars are no holds barred the global financial headlines tune in to. place. blame you can see. plenty of. the celebs close in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the world remembers the tragic events the details of her need to attach court rules that peacekeepers task to protect civilians during the bosnian conflict failed in their duties sixteen years

on do we have a fair and balanced interpretation of this war and we have a proper memory for all victims. the same can say the same crosstalk the bosnian conflict i'm joined by mohammed chuckled he's a former bosnian ambassador to the u.n. and in. london across the me share of the old richie is a political expert on the balkans all right gentlemen cross talk rules are in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want me schiff i can go to you first today is the sixteenth anniversary official anniversary of events that occurred in seventy two are you satisfied how mainstream media portrays those events and we can use tragic events or i can you can use whatever you want but how do you feel that the description of that anniversary is being understood understood today. well i've been most unhappy for the last sixteen years the way that it has been represented

like to start out with its description was the worst a war crime in europe soon so the second world war the worst war crime in the second world war was the crime of aggression by nazi germany against a neighboring state and that was not decided by a meet was decided by the nuremberg tribunal that action has been repeated in europe by the bonding of the federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states and that is the worst war crime for me and this war crime if you're going to call it that so it's rabbinate sell us about three or four dates so it's a military operation in which some crimes have to have certainly taken place but they have to be find very much more closely and the word massacre is used in connection with robyn and so but then also the word genocide these are two very distinct terms and massacre you know does not have to be illegal you know war is certainly illegal if one massacre of women and children or let's say prison of soft

war which of orderly surrender but if there is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as as often happened in a war then there can also be called massacre we have to distinguish between executions which is a deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which are certainly occurred in the case of srebrenica and the other big problem of course is the word general site because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of genocide of the jews during the second wave me show me the link to the ambassador here mr ambassador do you do you how to what point you agree or disagree with what we should just said because he doesn't like to use the term genocide massacre when it comes disagree need to be that some mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court

of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the former yugoslavia in the hague has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in one nine hundred ninety nine that's subsequent to what happened in srebrenica so when we talk about the war stack the worst war crime since world war two i think struggle and it's is more than appropriate but i i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create purely at the cli clear serb territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of

international law and today's political standards. i'm afraid that we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade and its proxy forces in bosnia herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you took the russian and german conflict in world war two many german suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations are quite comparable ok me i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just want to do so of international courts of justice. in the case of

bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of yugoslavia only against has decided that it was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened and so i'm afraid you are case you are the court did not excuse me the court did not decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one that there was genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you're not going to go further to condemn ok me should jump and you can refine that any way do you mean you're going to. i agree i was a big issue here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be acquitted by the way prevented other than michael making an act of aggression and having. the forces of a gun found out all because we could go invasion general and lively and sell into anything well sorry i know nobody thinks this was an officer.

go ahead meanwhile he did get old bloodied himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive this pension even after he retired from serbia so there was more than adequate could command and control and in fact there is a trial now that is concluding general noam shalit parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events around the serbian it's in the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international military law where serbia was directly involved ok mishi go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all there are some tenuous connections here with mr booth with mr large mr was in fact a general within the jayme the yugoslav national army which when it broke up in

a complex story of the civil war in bosnia actually became commander of the forces of the bosnian serbs into a conflict i have to say that although i know that people always want to involve belgrade. i am sorry allow me i am in michigan to your point my case i would not be interrupting you all the time the international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr me nauseous each the prosecution which also claims that belgrade and hence mr milosevic were involved in the creation of greater serbia in austria actually dropped officially the case of greater serbia they they dropped it i can give you the space the precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here

a situation that is being ignored all the time but it has not been a case of greater serbia it has been a case of. foreign intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by falling power we have the largest u.s. military basing cost of war being constructed after they have been illegally invaded and occupied the region the largest. airport military airport in boston area this is the port has been taken over by the united states during the war and mr lederach is actual crime if i dare say so was actually quite naked on the sixteenth of may ninety ninety two some three years before srebrenica and that was growing up in the area of be touch one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe the one that the americans and nato wanted to have but the one that you were slavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check with of course or point out

that yugoslavia was the only line state and did not belong to either side and that was mr english is actual crime. any other crimes have been added to subsequent subsequently to ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension and salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if he would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide his true allegiances as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with general. today and a verdict will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to

speak of that we're to speak here what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i would be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected zone of srebrenica that was betrayed by the u.s. by france and by the u.k. at least by the officials of those countries when they in fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the peace create peacekeepers to intervene with the air support once those once the survey it's a safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevic and law which to create new

facts on the ground to in effect create an ethnically partition bosnia-herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come point we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. to seventy eight's of victims because they were victims during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i have to jump in here it's very interesting to hear what we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion and somebody to stay with archy. the you can see. plenty of. the in. h.l. martin here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.

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coverage. you can see. the. welcome back to cross talk here about remind you we're talking about several leads in sixteen years on. the can i say. ok mission if i go back to you in london there is no doubt of it to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really refutes that but my question is in remembering that are all the victims of that war remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. so there

is a precedent to it you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany of the then. yugoslav state it's a very simple process you know the invader the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes you need a half the country to be the enemy to be the baddies and the other half the good is so you you on them you know well you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army is going to roll over and that is what mr hitler's army and he is an axis powers did and every single statement at the time in the german vulcan shells their film fell newsreels in the fall of bell bucked the nazi newspaper stated that span as far as i can see nato is basically just repeated the viber country amongst the serbs were of

approximately forty percent of the population. and. the others creator f. actively a conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for take woke up in every single case of the sites that were being supported where those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states courage just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to understand it in that context the try. you know it's main purpose here and also

thread when it's up which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and certainly here from london i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this divide in the rule basis if the standards those people who know about it can easily recognize it on the thirty two of yugoslavia the goodies and the baddies the serbs about this so they have to be presented in that way ok mr ambassador going to you do you think all of the victims of that conflict are properly remembered because again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess i will. the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never

have the aggressor in this war i consider to have been belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as a regime i actually do not only knowledge but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serves as a nationality who defended sarajevo and defended gaza and had to give it up probably one of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero defense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic bosnia and herzegovina in general you have on d.v.r. there were many others in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the

western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not relevant as to the issue of seventy it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence most of these crimes including serbian it's a happen and i should also point out the strip it needs is the one that stands out the most not because the numbers there were even higher numbers of people killed in places like prayed or in the sugar out there certainly it's a threat stands out because of a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch into rackley to. general and his forces

directly but what about their betrayal of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's where we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serb and krok and so many of the victims who are of mixed ethnicity as well as bosniak or bosnian muslims because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would seek to destroy bosnia this med to lead and create technically pure territories from it and that's the only differentiation that i spoke a son here ok do you think seventy three is the correct signifier of the out war is

that is that is that the best way to define the tragedy what happened to bosnia. each is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have i have to come back just to to the background that mr sasabe has talked about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude subs as being victims so upset only victims by the way if i do not sure which is in some cases acted against them well that may be your position but you know i follow b.b.c. i follows him and i live here in the west capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one side of the story of the tribunal has been set up that way but majorly in here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry i want to see a look at the tribunal tells us that it wants to exists in order to ensure that justice

is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know it has two parts and three parts if you like because the part of the prosecution it is the part of the defense and the defense must be given at least the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which has now operated for just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point of your defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raised the struggle in saying document on several occasions here in london. i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color the pantelion and we all should be strong he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor

has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. would have prevented n tiley the case for the prosecution if you're a prosecution justice and basically you have a lynch and it is very clear that they have to basically to present here foreign policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue mr nearly let us are so big but if we had if we have jet is known as asia which is messing here ok mr ambassador go ahead. i think the point here is that you're confusing the sir p. people with milosz of each carriage which if bets that brode that you take then you are in effect condemning the serb people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serb people that is a do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and

for what their regime did to what extent the serve people want to in fact confirm those crimes is their own it's by your own discussion right now that you're doing that and you are attacking what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and that's been a plush h. the former president of republika srpska she in fact said to both general melodic and to charles situ is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said for the sake of the serve people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the acts of the serb people and i will remind the world today that without the work of such

brave people as in the tosh i can ditch in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian prisoners and strip anita neither the swirled nor the surface serve people themselves for that matter but mr minister the media and many of his response was that i was on a mission and i think he was trying the program go ahead about thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop. the truth that has taken place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution side of the issue of the people who are indicted and the case of be an awful option shouldn't just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty to what plead guilty to west and nato actions ations why they're there they're told in the netherlands someone is going to plead guilty if the information is available and such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and asked to

rate regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a lot just a few ji group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry so we've been running out of time here thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. the. surge the removal called the clear cut. second explosives are used to eat in the. earth the remains are in the field. someone who. doesn't say to him that they feel.

on a. little .