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close and welcome to crossfire computer labelle as the world remembers the tragic events that befell separately it's a dutch court rules that peacekeepers task to protect civilians during the bosnian conflict failed in their duties sixteen years on do we have a fair and balanced interpretation of this war and we have a proper memory for all victims. can. still be. crossed out the bosnian conflict i'm joined by mohammed chuckled he's a former bosnian ambassador to the u.n. and in london across the me share of the old it she is a political expert on the balkans all right gentlemen cross talk rules are in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want me should i go to you first today is the sixteenth anniversary official anniversary of events that occurred in seventy two are you satisfied how mainstream media portrays those events and we can use tragic events or i can you can use whatever you want but how do you feel that the description of that anniversary is being understood understood today. well i've

been most unhappy for the last sixteen years the way that it has been represented later start out with its description was the worst a war crime in europe soon so the second world war the worst war crime in the second world war was the crime of aggression by nazi germany against the neighboring state of that was not decided by me it was decided by the nuremberg tribunal that action has been repeated in europe by the bomb being of the federal republic of yugoslavia by nineteen nato states led by the united states and that is the worst war crime for me and this war crime if you're going to call it that it's robin it's our last about three or four days so it's a military operation in which some crimes have have certainly taken place but they have to be defined very much more closely and the word massacre is used in connection with robyn and so but then also the word genocide these are two very

distinct terms and massacre you know does not have to be illegal you know war is certainly illegal if one massacre of women and children or let's say prison a sort of war which of orderly surrendered but if there is an ambush if armed forces of the other side are simply sprayed by machine guns as as often happened in a war and then that can also be called massacre we have to distinguish between executions which is deliberate killing in this particular situation and combat death which certainly occurred in the case of servants and the other big problem of course is the word genocide because genocide against whom and how do we know what the perpetrators intended to do in this in this particular case let me give you an idea of genocide of the jews during the second rate me seriously let me let me go to the ambassador here mr ambassador do you do you how to what point you agree or disagree with what you should just said because he doesn't like to use the term

genocide massacre when it comes as a breach of it that some mainstream media portrays it so go ahead. well it's not mainstream media it's actually the international court of justice and the war crimes tribunal for the former yugoslavia in the hague has called this genocide and it actually has also shown that there was an intent to commit genocide so for that reason it is genocide it's not about the media and second of all when he speaks of what happened in kosovo in one nine hundred ninety nine that's subsequent to what happened in seventy eight's up so when we talk about the war stack the wars war crime since world war two i think seventy eight's is more than appropriate but i would like to focus really on two levels one is the individuals themselves and the crime that was committed against them and the second is in fact what was in mind of the perpetrators which was to ethnically cleanse this territory and to create

purely at the cli clear syrup territories and that is the other part of this situation that i think is so damned in the context of international law and today's political standards i'm i'm afraid that we talk of all the victims as you have introduced the subject it is appropriate people have suffered on all sides but what differentiates what belgrade and its proxy forces in bosnia-herzegovina were doing here was to try to create an ethnically pure greater serbia and that would be the same thing as if you took the russian and and they german conflict in world war two and many german suffered but what differentiates the crimes committed by the nazis is their intent to create ethnically pure german areas and of course the invasion of the soviet union or if you would russia itself and i think those two situations

are quite comparable ok michelle i mean i don't need to be in the middle of this here go right ahead you want to reply i just want to say for the international court of justice. in the case of bosnia and herzegovina against the federal republic of yugoslavia only against has decided that was innocent of any wrongdoing or participation in what had happened and i'm afraid you are case you are the court did not excuse me the court did not decide that serbia was innocent the court decided number one there was genocide and number two it concluded that serbia at least failed to take adequate steps to prevent the genocide in serbia it said it had no you and i do so is this where you want to go further to condemn ok me should jump in you can refine that already anyway do you mean you're going to jump in i agree it is a big issue here between failure to prevent something i don't know how so be acquitted by the way prevented it other than by committing an act of aggression on

having. the forces of the then federal because we could go invasion in general and lively and silent anything well sorry i know nobody will sell justice this was an officer. good me well he didn't owe me a lot of himself was a general of the officer of the serbian forces and he continued to be paid continue to receive logistics and he in fact continue to receive his pension even after he retired from serbia so there was more than adequate command and control and in fact there is a trial now that is concluding general mom sheila parish which who was the serbian military a chief at the time for exactly the events surrounding seventy eight's in the siege of sarajevo and other such grave violations of international military law where serbia was directly involved ok mishi go ahead reply to that ok ok first of all

there are some tenuous connections to go with mr bill with mr enlarge missed on a lot of each was in fact a general within of it jamie the yugoslav national army which when it broke up in the conflicts of the civil war in bosnia actually became commander awfully forces of the bosnian serbs into a conflict but i have to say this although i know that people always want to involve belgrade it is not going to negotiate on his i am sorry allow me i have my mission to continue doing my case i will not be interrupting you all the time the international court of justice has stated that serbia has not been involved in the in the case of srebrenica there is another issue in the trial of mr milosevic the prosecution which also claims that belgrade and handsomest going to last which were involved in the creation of greater serbia in boston or actually dropped officially the case of greater serbia they they dropped it i can give you that space at the

precise date it was the twenty fifth of august two thousand and five when this was done so we have here a situation that is being ignored all the time but there has not been a case of greater serbia it has been a case of. what an intervention in which the whole of the balkans is now being controlled by a foreign power we have the largest u.s. military base in cost of all being constructed after they have been illegally invaded and occupied the region the largest. airport military airport in boston this is the port has been taken over by the united states during the war and mr lederach is actual crime if i dare say so was actually called make it on the sixteenth of may ninety ninety two some three years before srebrenica and that was growing up in the area of because each one of the most advanced underground military airports in europe the one that the americans and nato wanted to have but

the one that you were slavia had actually had for its own defense against any invasion either from the east or west i have to i have to check but of course a point out that yugoslavia was a on a line state and did not belong to either site that was missed in law which is actual crime. any other crimes have been added to subsequent subsequently to ok mr ambassador go right ahead. well first of all gentleman has been shown clear evidence that he was receiving his salary and his pension salary while he was active in bosnia from the serbian military command in belgrade he was also receiving all his logistics and in fact many of his commands from there the fact that he happened to call himself the bosnian serb general or commander if you would was only a matter of convenience to in fact hide is true legion says as for the notion of greater serbia that case still continues with gentleman's. today and the verdict

will be coming in soon as to what happened in kosovo as to what happened with american presence in the region i think on july eleventh we're not here to speak of that we're to speak here what happened in srebrenica and if we wish to open up that whole broader issue i would be very happy to agree with you on one critical point which is that when it came to the safe area and i should emphasize here the nato protected zone of srebrenica that was betrayed by the u.s. by france and by the u.k. at least by the officials of those countries when they in fact did not allow or did not respect the call of the dutch peace create peacekeepers to intervene with air support once those once the survey it's a safe area came under attack by his forces i believe that was not just an

omission i believe that was a yellow signal to allow milosevich. to create new facts on the ground to in effect create and ethically partition bosnia and herzegovina and i think that's the most important we should come point we should come back to i'm not here to speak on behalf of muslims i have a responsibility. we need to spread the needs of victims because they were victims during my tenure as bosnian foreign minister all right gentlemen i have to tell you it's very interesting to hear what we have to go through a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion i'm sorry to state with darky. live. in the city. live. the settled.

the thing. live live live live live see. lynn issues three liquidation three lives four charges three. arrangement three. three. three limos. videos for your media projects a free media party. can . listen to.

live welcome back to cross talk to people about who we're talking about seventy to sixteen years on live can. live. ok michele if i can go back to you in london there is no doubt a day to a tragedy occurred in seventy to sixteen years ago i don't think anybody really refutes that but my question is i'm remembering that are all the victims of that war remembered in the proper context because i mentioned media earlier and in western media the serbs are just painted as the bad guys all the time in a series of civil wars why has that happened. there is a precedent to it you know and this is the second world war because it happened also during the invasion of nazi germany of the then. yugoslav state

it's a very simple process you know the invader the one who wants to control the territory in the region ideally divides thing people into friends and foes you need half the country to be the enemy to be the baddies and the other half the goodies so you you on them you know you speak nicely about them in your media and so on and then they can have a nice civil war between them neutralize each other and your army is going to roll over that is what mr hitler's army and he is axis powers did and every single statement at the time in the german involvement shall see the film fill newsreels in the focus should be all but the nazi newspapers stated that and as far as i can see nato is basically just repeated that divide the country and monks the serbs were of approximately forty percent of the population. and. the other this

creator ethic to be a conflict in order to neutralize the country and to be ready for takeover in every single case of the the sites that we have been supported where those who were acting against their own state against yugoslavia allowing a french ectomy foreign powers to take over and now control six many states courage just point out that we currently have enough gonna stop the forces of croatia the forces of slovenia of bosnia and herzegovina of montenegro and macedonia serbia is the odd one out but it's very likely that their forces will now instead of defending their own country be posted to to another continent in order to fight for a foreign power and that situation has happened before and i think you have to understand that in that context the train. you know it's main purpose here and also srebrenica which is of course the major part of this is to continuously draw attention away from it but meanwhile we've had iraq we've had as i mentioned

afghanistan and we can all see what is happening in libya it is a case of controlling fourteen territories and i certainly hear from london and i know very well how the british empire has also operated in india and elsewhere on this divide in little basis it is standard those people who know about it can easily recognize it on the telly to yugoslavia the good news on the bad is the serbs about is so they have to be presented in that way ok mr ambassador going to you do you think all of the victims of that conflict are properly remembered because again i don't want to keep harping on the media but i guess i will. the serbs are just painted in the worst possible colors but a lot of serbs died in that conflict as well and they properly remembered because they were victims as well. you gentlemen have used the word serbs i never have the aggressor in this war i consider to belgrade and serbian not serve as a nationality but serbian as citizens or in this case as

a regime i actually do not only knowledge of but i do have sorrow for all the victims of the war and i also should remind you that there were many serbs that is serbs as a nationality who defended sorry able and friend of bosnia-herzegovina probably one of the greatest heroes if not the greatest hero that sense of bosnia-herzegovina is a serb ethnic bosnia and herzegovina in general your bond there were many others in the government now so i have no qualms about honoring the memory of all the victims but we have to distinguish between a fascist policy and one that engage in ethnic cleansing and genocide to create ethnically pure territories and all the talk about what the united states and the western european countries are doing in the region i may agree or disagree but that's not an. issue of srebrenica it is not relevant to the issue of what belgrade

tried to do which is after yugoslavia fell apart and after bosnia-herzegovina reluctantly went ahead with its independence and most of these crimes including serbian needs to happen and i should also point out that strip needs is the one that stands out the most not because the numbers they were even higher numbers of people killed in places like korea door in the sugar out the survey needs to stretch stands out because of a commitment made by the united nations and nato to defend it as a safe zone and a protected area but it was not and that's where i'm critical of the united states and that's why i'm critical of western europe and nato because they have so easily passed on this responsibility to the dutch indirectly to. general melodic and his forces directly but what about their trail of srebrenica so if we want to talk about what the west was doing on july eleventh the anniversary of servants that's

where we should focus and in effect what amounts to a betrayal if you want to call it hypocrisy i'll be happy to go along with that but in the end i think bosnia must recognize all the victims and i have made the point of always recognizing serb and cry and so many of the victims who are of mixed ethnicity as well as bosniak or bosnian muslims because that was my responsibility and that is the only moral thing to do is to see all of these citizens in the same light but as an official of bosnia i cannot see in the same light those who would seek to destroy bosnia this med to live and create ethnically pure territories from it and that's the only differentiation that i spoke a son here ok do you think seventy three is the correct signifier of the war is that is that is that the best way to define the tragedy of what happened to bosnia . is one of them but i don't think it is a major one we have i have to come back just to to the background of mr sasser

because it is talked about that has been mentioned here who are the victims of this war well every statement everywhere will exclude as being victims so upset only victims by the way if i do not sure which is in some cases acted against them well that may be your position but you know i follow b.b.c. i follows him and i live here in the west capital i can read i go to all the institutions and i can hear only one side of the story of the tribunal has been set up by the way but majorly in here a bit maybe if you're defending if. i'm sorry go ahead please i'm sorry but i want to see a look at the tribunal tells us that it wants to do it exists in order to ensure that justice is done the word justice is used time and again as its actual purpose but justice is terribly simple you know it has two parts and three parts if you

like because the part of the prosecution it is the part of the defense and the defense must be given at least the same time as the prosecution because it's much more difficult defending against accusations and then of course we need an independent jury to give us a verdict now i have followed the tribunal which is now operated for a just over sixteen years not once here in london in a major western capital have i heard a presentation from the point of your defense but i've always heard about prosecution i've heard here in london the chief prosecutor mr richard goldstone the one who actually raised the threat and so indictment on several occasions here in london. i've heard geoffrey nice the right hand man of color del ponte in the middle sharif trial he said several appearances here in london. louise arbor has spoken here the b.b.c. c.n.n. represent end of a case for the prosecution if you are

a prosecution justice and basically you have a lynch and it is very clear that they have to basically to present here foreign policy i'm sorry but that is that is the issue mr nearly as i said. if we had if we have jet is not as easy which is and i think ok mr master go ahead. i think the point here is that you're confusing the serve people with milosz of h h carriage which if that's the road that you take then you are in effect condemning the sir people to be associated with individuals who are guilty of some of the worst crimes since world war two i do not associate those people with the serb people bet as a do not associate those individuals those individuals are being held accountable before the international war crimes tribunal for what they did as individuals and for what their regime did to what extent the serve people want to in fact confirm

those crimes as their own it's by your own discussion right right now that you're doing that and you are adopting what they did as somehow being legitimized let me cite one person who has actually been convicted by the war crimes tribunal for crimes in the in bosnia and it's been a plot cheech the former president of republika srpska she in fact said to both general melodic and to char situ is the ideologues of the greatest serbia she said for the sake of the serve people accept your responsibility plead guilty because what's happening is people are confusing the acts of these individuals with the acts of the serve people and i will remind the world today that without the work of such brave people as in the tosh i can beach in serbia a serb who in fact discovered the footage of the executions the murders of bosnian

prisoners in seventy neither the swirled nor the sir sir people themselves for that matter a great measurement to the meaning of many years for those animals in a time and we should like to go to the last man in the program go ahead about thirty seconds go ahead. i have to say of course the important thing is to stop. view of the truth that has taken place here and we only hear one side and it is the prosecution's side the issue of the people who are indicted and the case of be an up laugh situation just just mentioned she says plead guilty plead guilty to what plead guilty to western and nato actions ations why they're there they're told in the netherlands one is going to plead guilty if the information is available and such information is not available and that is the situation that is missing all the time and best to regarding the serbian victims can i just say that there are a largest refugee group in europe and have been for some time i'm sorry. i'm here

thank you gentlemen many thanks to my guest today in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on our t.v. see you next time and remember rostock rules. a time arriving here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today in the big picture.

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