it's sometimes. the. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy cause a report on. it is seven thirty on a monday morning in moscow russia's capital on chang thomas this is r t let's take a look at your top headlines a snapped cable has forced rescuers to restart the complicated operation to lift the massive football garia cruiser that sank a week ago craning one hundred twenty nine lives. in the murdoch media scandal claims another scalp as it britain's top cop quits over connections to journalists suspected of bribery and phone hacking the former news international chief

executive and the news of the world editor rebecca brooks has also found herself once again dealing with police behind closed doors but this time under arrest before being released on bail. and a transatlantic cash crunch as america struggles to raise its debt ceiling in time to avert a default while the euro crisis spreads adding more pressure on the single currency the. libyan rebels have been recognized as it is a legitimate governing authority in the country by the u.s. and thirty other countries but colonel gadhafi remains defiant and vows are never to leave libya as nato airstrikes continue. coming up in about thirty minutes my colleague josh he'll be here with a full look at your news but right now peter lavelle and his guests discuss possible ways to break the libyan stalemate it's time for cross talk only here. hungry for the full stop we've got. the biggest issues get

a human voice face to face with the news makers on the parts he. can start. following welcome to cross talk on people about libya's stalemate in the sand of nato bombing campaign and aid to anti kadafi rebels have only hardened political facts on the ground western intervention was intended to last a few weeks now is open ended instead of dislodging khadafi nato allies are left to bicker among themselves. can start.

to cross the nato mission in libya i'm joined by are you johnson in london he is the founder and director of viewpoint africa also in london we have marco gas like he is a political analyst an expert on south east european affairs and in barcelona we call cross to omar asha he is a lecturer in politics of the modern arab world at the university of exit are all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want omar and i to go to you first in barcelona how would you assess nato's operations in libya to date because depending on the new source you want to read it stalemate it's quagmire. we're coming across reports of rebels committing our human rights. violations they're not looking so pretty anymore and it's just basically a civil war that has come to a stalemate so how would you assess nato's operations today. well if that's

civil resistance campaign thirty feet of ship that somehow turned into an armed conflict because that was the choice of the logically needed intervention came out of necessity calls from the. opposition fighters. march the situation was quite bad there was a diffused forces were on benghazi given what given the history of the deficit level of aggression given what happened in the south and there was the likelihood of i mean we all be asking why should you think it's as if you think he's playing a positive role right now. it's hard the whole situation is not positive the whole situation is obviously far from ideal. if he's speaking there is some advancement on the ground given that with this started in march. whether this will yield a military victory for the. sea the international council and the need to or

whether it will end up in a political compromise by which he gets out or some of his clans and some of his regime thinkers will be part of the future of libya this is what's that's the question that is. put forward now ok the other thing also is well how many negative consequences can happen in any on campaign we can talk about you know what can happen in the post up there as well whether he stays in power or party in power or whether. some of it is all whether he goes away in both cases there will be some negative consequences in aftermath of nature's intervention ok mark what do you think of our nato intervention in libya today. you know later in the program won't you quote some of them it figures within nato or bickering among themselves and pointing fingers i guess they didn't think about it too far ahead when they started this campaign go ahead. well nato always goes into places as i know

very well from from previous experience later interventions for its own reasons there's no concern there for any opposition however marginal or however morally justified they may or may not be nato is an aggressive alliance which operates on the basis of that it wants to place its. military in key areas of the world command and control resources and territory that's what it's there for it's not some kind of moral creature it's a beast really and when the nato powers can't make money and propaganda work for them and undermine governments abroad then they move on to the military machine and the propaganda the also across the stories the indictment by tame courts which should know better and all of these things have been done in many other countries and they've been done so leave you now and the experience of all the libyan people as well i think we would have had a short conflict here perhaps there was a case for pressuring colonel gadhafi to listen to the demands for change within

his own society but there's no case to launch a major war and an open ended one a new iraq. on the people of libya this will not lead to anything good it's not leading to anything good now but it was never designed to be designed to lead to occupation and division of libya by the nato pact so that's what it's there for that's what it's going to do you know if i go you in london also i mean the nato didn't plan for this very well i mean and it certainly looks like they're bombing campaign is not only moving anything forward gadhafi still there it is killing civilians now as well i mean is there is this public bombing campaign kid yield any final result can you bomb this country to peace. well every day that goes by libby has been caught into bits and pieces the infrastructure is being damaged not to mention that the people are being displaced from their homes and people are living object fare well of course the longer it goes on the more likely the was meant to go bad against nato because it's very much about hearts and minds how can you

maintain the status quo how can you ensure you keep the coalition in the fashion it is currently with nato together and how are you going to be able to build on consensus international yes you know currently the chinese the indians russians and a few other countries are expressed reservations about nato bombing and the longer it's going to take it's going to cost a lot more money a lot of these countries are not in the mood for spending money and from a from a from an imagery perspective is damaging every second because more than likely you can make more mistakes you can get the coalition to get the wrong in front of his bombings and the campaign to go bitterly wrong against them so i think the long way to go the more likely nato is to find itself in hot water is as we've been saying over a period of time and the longer it does go gadhafi could think that he's been able to survive this long he could go no it's a loan to the end but it's very very difficult to see how we can come out of this one simply because the the overwhelming power is just way too much for him and but the thing is he's not we can enough to defeat the rebels on the rebels are clearly

not strong enough to b.p. to defeat him so we have this stalemate situation which is not real interested anyone and i think i'll hold the libyan people are suffering oh my if. barcelona there's been some news reports that france is in direct talks with members of the khadafi regime though just prior to that france condemns italy for calling for a cease fire and then simultaneously have khadafi spokespeople say it should be of cease fire should be approved prerequisite for some kind of negotiations so it looks like there is there are elements there that people want to talk what's wrong with the libyan proposal a cease fire to talk no more bombing and see where we go what do we have to lose. the main issue is that but there you have very serious credibility problem credibility problem comes from a forty two years of history where when when he was ruling but also a credibility problem no longer go on the really long ago the west is race mr

gadhafi remember remember all the pictures with tony blair with the you know bomb with you know the elite of the west i mean so but the idea is a credibility issue but i mean it goes back and forth right. yes because of course here i mean. i think one of our colleagues just mentioned the west operates on visas of interests and when interests intersects then you know a lot of the human rights violations are looked not looked at but when the interests do not intersect then those human rights violations of us are highlighted and that's the case with that with libya obviously oil interests and other interests the moral outrage i mean we were talking now about the violations that put their feet has done throughout his rule is rule but if you if you want to speak about an i.c.c. indictment the correct one that could have happened in july in june one thousand nine hundred six when the deficit forces committed and i secular crime against

humanity in obviously in prison in tripoli you were twelve hundred thirty political prisoners were gunned down with mass graves and i visited the area later on in two thousand and ten and you would have stories from the outside as people outside the prison and stories from x. detainees who witnessed part of this massacre so it's not like something that was nobody knew about but you had actual witnesses that heard and know some of the eagles of what's happening but this did not happen this was postponed until two thousand and eleven where the you know the interests we're not going to get it or expedia so it's politically expedient markel fine go to you i mean why can't there be negotiations if they're on both sides of the conflict you're talking about why can't there be an attempt to talk and stop fighting i mean you don't have to like each other. well the basic reason is four letters it's not not a talking organization you could say because basically if it was it would listen to

the mandate it's been given the mandate security council resolution one thousand nine hundred three demands it's very first clause the immediate establishment of a ceasefire so what part of that doesn't and nato not understanding cease fire and if nato ceases the rebels it supporting will cease fire could our people also be forced to cease fire then you may before things get much worse have a chance of a dialogue which the resolution also calls for and then you may have a chance ultimately for reconciliation between the peoples within libya before too much murder too much death has occurred and before too much foreign occupation and puppet governments have been installed so the best chance for libya is that this war stops very quickly indeed but of course that isn't what nato wants because nato wants the usual suspects within nato i should say the ones who attack everywhere i do is use the same excuses want to do the same thing they did elsewhere here they want to occupy libya they want to get their compliant puppet government in to give

them cheap deals good contracts they want they got it all planned out and the libyan people will be the victims if they allow this war to continue and that will include the rebel side a very good year it sounds very interesting to me is that we iraqis didn't plan for after the invasion it seems like in this case we really have everything planned except for winning the war what do you think of. well yes if there's one thing is that the americans and some of its allies have got to learn from the experiences that they saw in somalia not to major in afghanistan and iraq it's failed miserably in those areas and if it continues in the fashion it is with libya we're likely to go down that same route i think the concern all around is how do you ensure that you maintain that was commanded at the u.n. mandate clearly calls for which is not regime change it's protection of civilians and property so i think it's going back to the blueprint how can we get nato to start complying to international regulations in terms of maintaining the status quo rather than choosing and for me to sort its own opinion as to whether they want to

get rid of gadhafi or not mark or you want to jump in there. yeah it's not just international regulations it's international law and nato does believe that it can adjust manipulate its way to ignore or deceive the security council once it's in there on any basis it's going to act on its own basis it's just arrogance by the western powers i believe it's about a colonial. background these this is the new imperialism that we're faced with i think it's the biggest danger to a stable world that simon's both russia and iran are going to be here asleep in here we're going to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if you. still . want to.

remove the latest in science technology from around the world. we've got the future covered. and. welcome back across the uk i'm here all about the true mind you were talking about the protracted conflict in libya. and.

i want to find her back here in barcelona isn't this kind of. attitude that absolute surrender total surrender of the khadafi and his his regime isn't that just shortsighted that doesn't that just keep the conflict going because what reason does he have he's going to be put on trial by western powers. for war crimes or what what interest does he have even to get anywhere room at all i mean human nature would say you have to then you have to stand and fight to the death which is continuous this civil war this protracted war in libya. yeah i partly agree because but this is a pro conflict process you know we didn't start by an i.c.c. indictment or a started by you know putting him in those associates of his that is he more international wanted this it didn't start like that it started with it again as if it is distance campaign mainly organized by local libyan people whether in benghazi or in tripoli or in. other places in libya and then their plight was

a vicious oppression campaign that seldon's of this an organized armed campaign by the. demonstrators to us or and i'm sorry it's omar an intervention mark but it is really the only question. i just ask you it was just a civil resistance campaign how would a able to take a city like being garfield six hundred seventy thousand people with a repressive regime and the organs of the really very much as i understand this at seventeen yes you're sure that seventeenth of february the the armed conflict actually up at the by the end of february mainly because there was defections within the regime of but there for you know they did minister the head of this special forces. the justice minister multiple diplomats throughout the world all of them saw the devil off oppression and they were amazed at that level and you saw

a series of defections which is. what led the situation to be armed because then you had military personnel saying that enough is enough we're not going to shoot on our own people and they were siding with the people like what we saw similar situations in egypt in tunisia except that the army in egypt in tunisia acted as one unit so these are sided with the people there was no you know if i could go to you i mean the thing is is that the west has chosen the side ok i've been to a good comparisons to other situations don't really work because the united states and it's not needed. a certain group of people rebels that actually human rights watch now so you're committing atrocities against their own people here is this just opportunism on the part of some people in libya and western powers. well i think all expectations because one little matter go ahead i'll grant i think to an extension yes because the rebels i've never really been able to show that they can control that country they've never really truly been able to show that they have

the governance skills to be able to control that country and i think the west are going to struggle seriously bringing all the various factions within it there are so long on the one control post gadhafi that it is weather wise to remove gadhafi so i think it's a lack of foresight lack of understanding of the issues on the ground i'm going. to try not to for haste to get into a conflict a confrontation that you know very little about and that i think what's happening now with nato is that they realize that they've jumped into quickly conscious of taking sides too quickly when they should have stayed back and what's the situation and i know fully over time they could have done so but i think they show that the west not so eager to occupy that land and on to control the oil and. it would appear in this particular instance that's supporting the rebels who are clearly ill disciplined poorly equipped who do not have the monday to control that country is a poor decision because we can see now that it is not going to achieve anything marco if i go to you maybe just. we just heard it is nato looking to nato does

think this is going to be a quick easy war i mean you can redeem itself after it's see the humiliation i would say in afghanistan i mean or is it just domestically driven you know sort of cause he has to show that he's somebody you know that can stand up to take haters which though he embraces braces dictators all of the time critically before the arab spring i mean what is the main motivation in your in your opinion. i think the problem is. for nato that gadhafi is an independent ruler who would like to have an independent country and if possible an independent confidence colonel gadhafi has come up with the idea of an african development bank and african goldstein are those moves which could hugely lessen the poverty in africa and the dead indebtedness old african nations to the i.m.f. it's a problem also because he plans out that as a rival to the dollar and the euro that was a mistake saddam hussein tried a similar thing in two thousand and he was invaded as well so it's not a clever idea for a medium right country with oil in it to actually be planning your own currency

because the big the big world powers on the west aren't too keen on that scenario so really he was a threat to them or reserves were very attractive to them very close to them and very high quality so really he takes all of boxes for a good invasion plus they had all historical scores to settle because gadhafi came to power on the basis of removing a pretty puppet ruler in the first place so i would say if they want to get rid of him let's be lecturers in libya let's let the people decide let's out of the respect for the losers in those elections but let's hold elections and if mr gadhafi is so unpopular let the people tell us and if he's not let's find out. if we talk now to that is going to be telling you that if gadhafi clearly house shown that he said that he will live and die in libya he's not said that several times and because he is now being squeezed to the wall these are no means of carrots come out of the situation he can negotiate his way out of trouble i think that the future is very very kind for libya and we could see

a rogue state developing over time especially something similar to what we've seen in somalia so it's a very difficult time for everyone concerned i agree with this very good business would continue on that point i mean we could really creating a rogue state particularly if the country is partitioned i mean that is also a possible option here where you have a partition is it just pointed out early in the program and we need obama's fill in the country they didn't really know very much about. ok i'll give you the positive scenarios and the negatives ones obviously that's an intriguing national council right and two of the ashes under interim because it didn't say that it will take over power after cut their fee it says that it will be there. to address all the transitional period after that there will be a constitution police elections based c.d.s. democratization process takes all would indeed be a transferred from almost a fiefdom to a modern democratic country with with constitutions so that's the whole but

obviously any force offered society there are too many variables going on and too many after sleeping and you can have negative consequences one of them is obviously you need is a tribal i society what happened there was again called the deficit choice and we should not avoid that transition of a situation where there was peaceful demonstrations to a situation where is an armed conflict. force armed conflict throughout vendettas and those are tribal society with arms around this is one of the problems obviously and especially for qualified f.e.m. self that the choice of staying is actually dangerous for him if he lost power if he lost control of the country because it now he has been there was almost every tribe whether in the east or in the west whether from is intent on the south are all but. the look so that's one of the issues the tribal war that and their politics the other issue is their office this is me somebody you know issue of of the visions marking on a job in there if i want to just say this isn't something colonel gadhafi has

brought about deliberately on himself he clearly like most rulers including repressive one throughout the middle east one to the quiet life the fact is this problem has been visited on him by somebody else's agenda and it's a western colonial power agenda which has been to all people his country and i i know lots of examples throughout the world a repressive regimes will gradually open themselves up to democratization and it's happening it didn't need a wall it didn't need a nato attack it needed to. even before any of this happened and that's what we haven't got and it's all very well blaming mr gadhafi fall for the situation but let's remember he was in power for forty two years and pretty much it was stable and getting better he managed to create a man made river project which is for the most of the key for my elements of independence for north africa ease that he's done a great deal for his people subsidized housing market cheap free education i mean maybe he's a socialist leaning agenda didn't suit the us but i don't see too many things but

he could have done differently and certainly i think now he really very much in favor of the peaceful transition to a better system and not the war one which nato proposes ok omar look like you want to disagree or go ahead but. i quite disagree. with nine hundred sixty nine by a cool remove the border. most of the plotters with him jailed some of them most of them and then you had this uni's of extremely depressive campaigns throughout the seventy's from the mid seventy's started during the eighty's and throughout the ninety's maybe opposition after opposition was sacked out including by the way the socialists and the leftists many of them did what the duty of a foreign and he'll institutionalize it sounds standard for the middle east were ousted and including for folks who are nationalists like the national. from all ideological colors most of them were ousted and this is how he stayed in power

there was no elections there was no attempt to use that to institutionalize the country we're talking about economical option this is a country that is ruled by a very small clique that benefits from exactly saudi arabia to the lucite was always our source for many reasons i mean you had your grand prix just in this region since. i was a part in the middle east middle of the family in the middle with a little less than half of the economy so surely gentle and gentle rather centrist . if you had the common sense the common sense approaches the fact that it's people power we've seen it we've seen movements across the north africa across the middle east where people are taking ownership and asking for change this is just an example of that gadhafi had been in power for forty two years he's time was up nonetheless the people said they want to change the question is not about people wanting change itself it's where the change can happen without foreign intervention is for the libyan people to determine their own cause to determine their own country and that's not what's happening currently ok mark i'll give you last word

and what brought the flying to values like this especially all the libyan people are against him as omar suggests but how is it that he's managed on the entire city of tripoli how is it going they clearly are on his side in a mass demonstrations going on over the layout we've been looking falsify they look as genuine as anything else i've seen coming out of libya he clearly has a huge amount of popular support as well let's not blind ourselves so that omar yeah i didn't say the whole thing or the libyans gets cut their feet i didn't say that i said the overwhelming majority want to change the wanted to see their country all right gentlemen we've run out of time it doesn't look like this debate really ends just like the war in libya is going to end many thanks to my guests today in london and in barcelona and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the celiacs time remember rostock rules. you. steve.

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