joy b. who chills the home of the greeks we go to the grand imperial truly the taj was the push coromandel you can a little socialist good to see don't need to go and. read this and the colonel was so chilled as risk your retreat. flight from moscow you're watching r t international with me kevin now in our top story a former news the world journalist who blew the whistle on phone hacking a british tabloid is dead and he said there's no evidence of suspicious circumstances this comes as a storm or a rupert murdoch's media empire turns its focus on the police and the prime minister of. the taliban times responsibility for the killings of more high ranking officials in afghanistan it comes as nato begins to hand over control to come from the problem system open forces facing huge question marks over their ability to cut

. and russian security forces for a major terror plot in moscow police arrested a group of people from the north caucuses are allegedly planning an attack on the crowded areas and a major transport. next people have allergies cross-talk soggy where nato has relations with libyan rebels is going to lead and what's next for the water one country. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from. the future covered. and you can. follow in welcoming crosstalk on peter lavelle libya's stalemate in the sand and

nato bombing campaign and aid and take it out the rebels have only hardened political facts on the ground western intervention was intended to last a few weeks now is open ended instead of dislodging khadafi nato allies are left to bicker among themselves. can. you cross the nato mission in libya i'm joined by you johnson in london he's the founder and director of viewpoint africa also in london we have marco grass like he is a political analyst an expert on south east european affairs and in barcelona we crossed to omar asher he is a lecturer in politics of the modern arab world at the university of exit are all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want omar and i to go to you first in barcelona how would you assess nato's operations in libya to date because depending on the news source you want to read it stalemate it's quagmire. we've coming across reports of rebels committing our human rights.

violations they're not looking so pretty anymore and it's just basically a civil war that has come to a stalemate so how would you assess nato's operations to date. well that's a civil resistance campaign predicated ship that somehow turned into an on conflict because that was the choice of the logically and it is intervention came out of necessity calls from the. opposition fighters nineteenth of march the situation was quite bad there was a diffuse forces were on but i guess the given what given this view of the deficit over the of aggression given what happened. there was the likelihood of so i mean look all the let me ask you what you think is. playing a positive role right now. it's hard the whole situation is not positive the whole situation is obviously far from ideal but relatively speaking

there is some advancement on the ground given that with this started in march. whether this will yield a military victory for the. sea the international council and the need to or whether it will end up in a political compromise by which gets out or some of its clans and some of its regime figures will be part of the future of libya this is what's that's the question that is. put forward now ok the other thing also is well how many negative consequences going to happen in any on campaign we can talk about you know what can happen in the post but there he goes well whether he stays in power or party in power or whether. some of it is all over he goes that way in both cases there will be some negative consequences in aftermath of nature's intervention ok mark what do you think of our nato intervention in libya today. later in the program i'll

quote some of them it figures within nato all bickering among themselves and pointing fingers i guess they didn't think about it too far ahead when they started this campaign go ahead. well nato always goes into places as i know very well from from previous experience later interventions for his own reasons there's no concern there for any opposition however marginal or have a morally justified they may or may not be nato is. aggressive alliance which operates on the basis of that it wants to place its. military in key areas of the world command and control resources and territory that's what it's there for it's not some kind of moral creature it's a beast really and when the nato powers can't make money and propaganda works for them and undermine governments abroad then they move on to the military machine and the propaganda the false stories the indictment by tame courts we should know

better and all of these things have been done in many other countries and they've been done so libya now and the expense of all the libyan people as well i think we would have a short conflict perhaps there was a case for pressuring colonel gadhafi to listen to the demands for change within his own society but there's no case to launch a major war and an open ended one a new iraq. people of libya this will not lead to anything good it's not leading to anything good now but it was never designed to be designed to lead to occupation and division of libya by the nato pact so that's what it's there for that's what it's going to do you know if i go you in london also i mean nato didn't plan for this very well i mean and it certainly looks like they're bombing campaign is not only moving anything forward gadhafi still there it is just killing civilians now as well i mean is there is this public bombing campaign can you be yield any final result can you buy this country to peace. well every day that goes by labor has

been called into bits and pieces the infrastructure is being damaged not to mention that the people are being displaced from their homes and people are living in abject fear well of course the longer it goes on the more likely the the war is meant to go bad i gainst nato because it's very much about the hearts and minds how can you maintain the status quo how can you and show you keep the coalition in the fashion it is currently with nato together and how are you going to be able to build on consensus internationally as you know currently the chinese the indians russians and a few other countries are expressed reservations about nato bombing and the longer it's going to take it's going to cost a lot more money a lot of these countries are not in the mood for spending money and from a from a from an image your perspective is damaging every second because more than likely you can make more mistakes you can get the coalition to get the wrong in from office bombings and the campaign to go bitterly wrong against them so i think the long way to go the more likely nature is to find itself in hot water as we've been saying over a period of time and the longer it does go gadhafi could think that he's been able

to survive this long he could go go into alone till the end but it's very very difficult to see how he can come out of this one simply because the the overwhelming power is just way too much for him and but the thing is he's not we can enough to defeat the rebels and the rebels are clearly not strong enough to d.p. to defeat him so we have this this stalemate situation which has not really benefited anyone and i think that as a whole the libyan people are suffering oh my if. barcelona there's been some news reports that france is in direct talks with members of the gadhafi regime though just prior to that france condemns italy for calling for a cease fire and then simultaneously have khadafi spokespeople say there should be a cease fire should be approved prerequisite for some kind of negotiations so it looks like there is there elements there that people want to talk what's wrong with the libyan proposal a ceasefire talk no more bombing and see where we go what do we have to lose. the main issue is that we have very serious credibility problem and the credibility

problem comes from forty two years of history when he was ruling but also credibility long ago on the really long long ago the west is race mr gadhafi remember remember all the pictures with tony blair with you know obama with you know the elite of the west yes i mean so there is a credibility issue but i mean it goes back and forth right. yes of course here i mean. i think one of our colleagues just mentioned the west operates on bases of interests and when interests intersects then you know a lot of the human rights violations are looked not looked at but when the interests do not intersect then those human rights violations are highlighted and that's the case with it with libya obviously oil interests and other interests the moral outrage i mean we were talking now about the violations the fact that he has

done throughout his rule is rule but if you if you want to speak about an i.c.c. indictment the correct one that could have happened in july in june one thousand nine hundred six when the deficit forces committed and i second a crime against humanity in other sleep prison in tripoli where twelve hundred thirty political prisoners were gunned down with mass graves and i visited the area that are on in two thousand and ten and you would have stories from the outside as people outside the prison and stories from acts detainees who witnessed a lot of this message so it's not like something that was nobody knew about but you had actual witnesses that heard and know some of the details of what's happening but this did not happen this was postponed until two thousand and eleven where you know the interests were not pulling together so it's politically expedient politically expedient marco finally you know why can't there be negotiations if you're on both sides of the conflict talking about it why can't it be an attempt to

talk it's not fighting i mean you don't have to like each other to have an agreement. well the basic reason is four letters it's not not a talking organization you could say because basically if it was it would listen to the mandate it's been given the mandate security council resolution one thousand nine hundred three demands it's very first clause the immediate establishment of a cease fire so what part of that doesn't and nato not understanding cease fire and if nato ceases to fire the rebels it's supporting will cease fire it up it will also be forced to cease fire and then you may before things get much worse have a chance of a dialogue which the resolution also calls for and then you may have a chance ultimately for reconciliation between the peoples within libya before too much murder too much death has occurred and before too much foreign occupation and puppet governments have been installed so the best chance for libya is that this war starts very quickly indeed but of course that isn't what nato wants because

nato wants that the usual suspects within nato i should say the ones who attack everywhere i always use the same excuses want to do the same thing they did elsewhere here they want to occupy libya they want to get their compliant puppet government in which will give them cheap deals good contracts they want they got it all planned out and the libyan people will be the victims if they allow this water continue and that will include the rebel side for years i'm so interesting to me is that we didn't plan for after the invasion it seems like in this case with libya they have everything planned except for winning the war what do you think of that. well yes if there's one thing is that the americans and some of its allies have got to learn from the experiences that they saw in somalia not to mention afghanistan and iraq it's failed miserably in those areas and if it continues in the fashion it is with libya we're likely to go down that same route i think the concern all around is how do you ensure that you maintain that world demand it's

a good un mandate clearly calls for which is not regime change is protection of civilians and property so i think it's going back to the blueprint how can we get nato to start complying to international regulations in terms of maintaining the status quo rather than choosing and for me it's all its own opinion as to whether you want to get rid of gadhafi or not mark or you want to jump in there. yeah it's not just international regulations it's international law and nato does believe that he cannot just manipulate its way to ignore or deceive the security council once it's in there on any basis it's going to act on its own basis is this is just arrogance by the western powers i believe it's going to colonial. background these this is the new imperialism that we're faced with i think it's the biggest danger to a stable world at a time and both russia and iran we're joined here are sleeping here we go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if you. still

. think it's going to. download the official implications until i phone the i pod touch from the i.q. exam still. life on the go. video on demand oxys minefield costs and r.s.s. feeds are now in the palm of your. question on the dot com. live. bringing you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future of coverage.

can you. welcome back across the uk and hear all about the true mind you were talking about the protracted conflict in libya. and. i want to find out to you back here in barcelona it isn't this kind of. attitude that absolute surrender total surrender of the khadafi and his his regime is in fact his short sided that doesn't that just keep the conflict going because what

reason does he if he's going to be put on trial by western powers. for war crimes or what what interest does he have even do do you get any room at all i mean human nature would say you have to then you have to stand and fight to the death which is continuous this civil war is pretty rapid war in libya. yeah i partly agree because this is a pro conflict process you know or didn't start by an i.c.c. indictment or started by you know putting him in close associates of his regime on international wanted this sock like that started with again as if it is distance campaign maybe organized by local libyan people whether in benghazi or in tripoli or in zawiya and other places in libya and then apply was a vicious repression campaign that seldon's of this and then an organized campaign by the. demonstrators to what story and sells oh man an intervention omar but these are the only answer questions. just to ask you if it if it was just

a civil resistance campaign how were they able to take a city i've been garfield six hundred seventy thousand people with a repressive regime and the organs of the really very much as i understand this at seventeen yes you're sure that seventeenth of february the the armed conflict actually did that by the end of february mainly because there was defections within the regime of cut their feed or they needed minister the head of this special forces. the justice minister multiple diplomats throughout the world all of them saw the level of oppression and they were amazed at that level then you saw a series of defections which is. what led the situation to be armed because then you had made a pretty personnel saying enough is enough we're not going to shoot on our own people and they were siding with people like what we saw similar situations in egypt in tunisia except that the army in egypt in tunisia acted as one unit so

these are sided with their people a point there was no you know if i could go to you i mean the thing is is that the west has chosen the side ok i'm going to do comparisons to other situations don't really work because the united states and it's not need or will always choose a certain group of people rebels did actually human rights watch now so you are committing atrocities against their own people here is this just opportunism on the part of some people in libya and western powers. well i think well externally it is because only it will matter because like i had. i think the next twenty years because the rebels. never really been able to show that they can control that country they've never really truly been able to show that they have the government skills to be able to control that country and i think that the west is going to show who seriously bringing all the various factions within libya as one under one control postpaid dolphin it is what the us to remove gadhafi so i think it's a lack of foresight lack of understanding of the issues on the ground under. water

for haste to get into a conflict a confrontation that you know very little about i'm not i think what that what's happening now with nato is that they realize that they've jumped into quickly countries have taken sides too quickly when they should have stayed back and watch the situation and i know awfully over time they could have done so but i think it just shows that the the west ever so eager to occupy that to control the oil and. it would appear in this particular instance that's supporting the rebels who are clearly ill disciplined poorly equipped who do not have the mandate to control that country is a poor decision because we can see now that it's not going to achieve anything marco fine go to you maybe just straddle it there and went and we just heard it is nato look at the nato just think this is going to be a quick easy war amy you can redeem itself after it's easy but humiliation i would say in afghanistan i mean or is it just domestically driven you know sort of cause he has to show that he's somebody you know that can stand up to dictators which though he embraces braces dictators all of the time particularly before the arab

spring i mean what is the main motivation in your in your opinion. i think the problem is. for nato that gadhafi is an independent ruler who would like to have an independent country and if possible an independent confidence colonel gadhafi has come out with the idea of an african development bank and african gold dinar those moves which could hugely lessen the poverty in africa and the dead indebtedness old african nations to the i.m.f. it's a problem also because he plans out as a rival to the dollar and the euro that was a mistake saddam hussein tried a similar thing in two thousand and he was invaded as well so it's not a clever idea for a medium right country with oil in it to actually be planning your own currency because the big the big powers on the west aren't too keen on that scenario so really he was a threat to them or reserves were very attractive to them very close to them and very high quality so really he takes all the boxes for a good invasion plus they had all historical scores to settle because kentucky came

to power on the basis of removing a british puppet rule in the first place so i would say if they want to get rid of him let's libya let's let the people decide let's respect for the losers in those elections but let's hold elections and if mr gadhafi is so unpopular let the people tell us and if he's not let's find out. if you talk now to that is going to be telling you that if gadhafi clearly shown that he said that he will live and die in libya is there not said that several times and because he is now being squeezed to the wall these are no means of carrots to come out of this situation he can negotiate his way out of trouble i think that the future is very very own kind for libya and we could see a rogue state developing over time especially something similar to what we've seen in somalia so it's a very difficult time for everyone concerned i agree with it's very interesting omar this let's continue on the point i mean we really creating a a rogue state particularly if the country is partitioned i mean that is also

a passport or option here where you have a partition is it was pointed out early in the program and we nato bombs fell on a country they didn't really know very much about. ok i'll give you that the positive scenarios and the negatives one. that's an intriguing national council right in to the ashes under interim because it did not say that it will take over power after a defeat says that it will be there. to address all the transitional period after that there will be a constitution police elections beast as he is democratization process takes over in libya to transfer it from almost a thief them to a modern democratic country with with constitutions so that's the whole but obviously in any society there are too many variables going on and too many actors being and you can have negative consequences one of them is obviously you get a tribal i society what happened and that was again called look at their first choice and we should not avoid that transition of

a situation where there was peaceful demonstrations to a situation where as an armed conflict. post armed conflict you have and that is and those are tribal society with arms around this is one of the problems obviously and especially for kolkata for yourself that's the choice of staying is actually dangerous for him if he lost power if he lost control of the country because it now he has been there was almost every tribe whether in the east or in the west whether from is in there or misrata are all but. so that's one of the issues the tribal war there and that the politics the other issue is how this isn't some behavioral issue of divisions marketing manager be there if i want to just say this isn't something colonel gadhafi has brought about deliberately on himself he clearly like most rulers including repressive one throughout the middle east once in a quiet life the fact is this problem has been visited on him by somebody else's agenda and it's a western colonial power agenda which has been working for his country and i know i

know lots of examples throughout the world of repressive regimes who gradually open themselves up to democratic isolation and it's happening didn't need a wall it didn't need a nato attack you needed to. even before any of this happened and that's what we haven't got and it's all very well blaming mr gadhafi fall for the situation let's remember using power for forty two years and pretty much it was stable and getting better he managed to create a man made river project which was for the most one of the key my elements of independence for north africa ease that he's done a great deal for his people subsidized housing market cheap free education i mean maybe he's a socialist leaning agenda didn't suit me us but i don't see too many things that he could have done differently and certainly i think now he was very much in favor of a peaceful transition to a better system and not the war one which nato proposes ok omar look like you want to disagree or go ahead but. i quite disagree. if you came in one nine hundred sixty nine by

a cool remove the border stayed there ousted most of the coup plotters with him jailed some of them most of them fled wanted and then you had this u.t.s. of extremely repressive campaigns throughout the seventy's from the mid seventy's started during the eighty's and throughout the ninety's mainly opposition after opposition was felt including by the way the socialists and the leftists many of them that want the dirty of the foreman that he will institutionalize you sound standard for the middle east were ousted and including for folks who are nationalists like their national. from all ideological colors most of them were ousted and this is how he stayed in power there was no elections there was going to come to the answer to that country we're talking about economic corruption this is a country that is ruled by a very small clique that benefits from exactly saudi arabia to the most high was an early start response a major reason why are you going as your grand likely they'd just been through this

region since. it obviously approaching the middle east leaders of the family in the middle of the loss of her father are going to be so julie generally in general rather centric. oh my oh go ahead if you had the common sense the common sense approach is the fact that it's people power we've seen we've seen a movement across the north africa across the middle east where people are taking ownership and asking for change and this is just an example of that gadhafi had been in power for forty two years he's time was up nonetheless the people said they wanted change the question is not about people wanting change itself it's where the change can happen without foreign intervention is for the libyan people to determine their own cause to determine their own country and that's not what's happening currently ok mark i'll give you last word you had what brought the plane into valleys like this all the libyan people are against him as omar suggests that how is it he's managed to arm the entire city of tripoli how is it that they clearly are on his side in those mass demonstrations going on over there we don't look at falsified by looking genuine as anything else i've seen coming out of libya

he clearly has a huge amount of popular support as well let's not blind ourselves so that omar. i didn't say all the. tickets cut their feet i didn't say that i said the overwhelming majority want to change the want to force the country all right gentlemen we've run out of time it doesn't look like this to be treated just like the war in libya is going to and many thanks to my guests today in london and in barcelona and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. scenic simon remember crosstime rules. keep the story. hungry for the full story we've got it for. the biggest issues get the cuban voice face to face with the news makers.

wealthy british style of the sons of.