joyce leave it to the home of villas the gateway to the grand imperial truly the george west bush coromandel new china let's go through those which are good to see don't need to go and. run to the colonel was her child as used to retreat. that time to look at the headlines not hear about. bailout people in the e.u. continues as leaders thrash out a second multibillion dollar nightlife in greece in the us the bloc owns itself against attacks by u.s. credit rating agencies. in a guide to europe's economic woes more serbs are questioning whether the country should join the e.u. those concerns haven't stopped serbia from pulling its own conditions towards a membership. as news corp chiefs trying to weather

a major media storm critics say there is no surprise the scandal erupted in a society that privacy has been severely evaluate. different that we bring you more now on the phone hacking scandal in a debate show cross-talk peter bell lost his guests about as impact on some as it in one take and implications for the middle class media in part. can. follow in welcome across our computer a little came in the murdoch empire as the phone hacking scandal in the u.k. engulfed more victims and politicians look for cover all eyes are on the future of news corp and its assets in the u.s. and beyond has the murdoch family finally outfoxed itself. came.

across not the implications of the phone hacking scandal i'm joined by kevin zeese in baltimore he's a spokesperson and lawyer for the government accountability group protect our elections and author of an open letter to the f.b.i. in s.c.c. urging them to investigate murdoch's news corporation in the u.s. in washington we have dave south than a he is communications director for free press and in london we cross a toby young he's a journalist and author of how to lose friends and alienate people all right gentlemen crosstalk rules and in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want kevin if i can go to you first because of your open letter here i took a look at some of the well the laws and bylaws of the f.c.c. and they basically their job is to make sure how the airwaves are used and they have to ensure that they're used by people of quote good character who serve the public interest and speak with candor so as murdoch's television empire at

least have any place in the united states today in light of what we have heard coming out of the u.k. . well we're here you know the u.k. and also we're hearing some to the united states of phone hacking where you know the u.k. would make murdoch and his news corp of violator of the foreign corrupt practices act which has criminal and civil penalties and basically doesn't allow u.s. corporations to bribe foreign officials and if murdoch is bribing foreign officials as seems to be the case they're talking about one hundred hundred thousand pounds or one hundred thousand dollars worth of bribes to the london police if that happened evolve the law and the f.c.c. should look at that and say that the twenty four stations you own that cover forty percent of united states he should not be allowed a license of the news corp's license it should be revoked and a new news station or a ship should come into play so i don't think he has any place the united states and it's very important for. ok to be i'd like to go to you in london what do you think about what kevin had to say because we all know on this panel that these kind

of practice is have been going on for a long time ok why the moral play now. well i think i'd. ask kevin to define what he means by bribe a little more carefully because that sounds slightly overstating it what some of rupert murdoch's british newspapers have been accused of doing is paying the police the story the story is giving them tips in return for tip offs and i think that is absolutely. within any tabloid newspaper culture in virtually any country in the world it's not a case i don't think anyone at this stage is accused news international the british subsidiary news corp of actually bribing police officers to drop charges against them or anything like that it's simply paying for information tipoffs ok if that is that is that can still fall foul of the corrupt practices act and you want to jump

in there before we go to either you. yeah i think i would i think those two were thought of as a problem to the foreign corrupt practices act is essentially giving my uniform official in order to benefit their corporation in a probably and that's what a bribe is their will because they're not going to drop charges that kind of thing although it's pretty interesting how those those in this investigation started because of the five didn't really proceed very far so you will find more about about their later but i do think that what the british were told we described would be considered right ok dave if. we were played go ahead toby go ahead and then go to this. suppose would or bernstein. paid deep throat for the information which led to the watergate exposure do you think that that means that katharine graham should go to jail but no there's not a foreign corrupt practices act with those raised questions in fact it's become too common you know it's media paying for stories ok to be so this is what i want to

get you and i want to go to dave right now again you know these kind of practices are endemic in media in the english speaking world the western world ok so again you know why is this kind of moral outrage out there because you could make the claim and i'm not making it murdoch is being turned into a scapegoat for what everybody else does including his organisation. oh well i would i would say the singling out news corp and singling out murdoch in particular is shortsighted. i'm not going to speak to you know how many other news organizations and gauging outright bribery and what kevin described. as a matter of law under the former foreign corrupt practices act is bribery and it's giving money to officials in order for it to entice them to do something or not do something within within their are thore and certainly giving over private

information would fall under. whether other organizations are engaged in that same same precise activity i think i think is you know it's i wouldn't be surprised at all if it were happening i can't i can't confirm or deny that it is but looking at news corp is an isolated incident or isolated company that does this sort of thing i think is naive ok i told me one of the things that we in the twenty first century with the internet and everything journalism i tell you it's all very very competitive it's very very expensive and if we look at journalism is simply a business then we should expect something like this to happen i mean we're you just have to get cut throat and you got to go cut cut corners go around the law maybe even break the law but everybody seems to be doing it and i think that it's because journalism has become just a purely business model and that's how we've gotten to the point where we are now. well there may be something in that i think certainly the fact that there is so

much competition in the pritish newspaper market particularly now that readers are declining on an almost daily basis and that is going to lead to a lot of corner cutting but i think. one of the misnomers about this particular scandal is that it represents a failure of regulation now for many years the british political class her. wanted to regulate the press much more heavily mainly because the press are constantly delving into their own wrongdoing they want to tame the press and my worry is that this scandal will be used as an excuse to regulate much more heavily the british press and it's actually not a failure of the existing self regulate remapping isn't that we have in place at present it's really a failure of the police force the law because bribing officials in this country is illegal and phone hacking is also illegal the problem is because of the collusion between some of news international newspapers and the metropolitan police force the

metropolitan police have an enforced the law as rigorously as they should have done but it's not a failure of regulation it's a failure of law enforcement well kevin it seems to me at least in the u.k. and we can talk about all of us live as events there develop there it you know the political class the media class and law enforcement it was just a kind of nice cozy relationship among all three of them ok all of them quote unquote benefited somehow. no question and they all are benefiting i think told me the point is exactly right that really was a failure of and of current foresman of current laws the acts of bribery in beijing people's privacy through hacking phones are illegal here as well and i think that's a that's a really good point you know in the united states we have seen some cutting of corners you could call it maybe desperation as as revenue sink as readers think as viewers think the media seems to be going the wrong direction with more anonymous sources more paying people to speak things that were in the past really of limited

use now are going to be commonplace i think where the transition period of our media we've gone from this we have this concentrated corporate media that has no credibility among the american public only twenty percent of the public believe the media tells the whole story and we're going to transition into a new form of democratized media and this will help get us there and dave this program is broadcast all around the world so can you tell my viewers outside of the united states how this scandal is being covered in the united states. not particularly well is the short answer there's been been very little in television coverage c.n.n. has done has done a bit fox and fox news channel has done almost nothing frankly and in fact c.n.n. reported. on the fox news channel's. media criticism program called thoughts newswatch during a commercial break the the people on the on the program were discussing how they

weren't going to discuss this story. so kevin makes a very very strong and powerful point that concentration of media power in very few hands will lead to sort of thing it's it's natural that a corporation is going to protect its own interests and news corp is an enormous company so no other no other news corp property is going to go to terribly far out on a limb to to investigate this story. the wall street journal the bible of wall street. is now owned by news corp or news corp and it is is not going to give shareholders in news corp a real story on this and what it could mean to their to their bottom line and that's that's a real problem you don't get real news when when so much power is concentrated if

you want to jump in there go ahead i just wanted to say he see you with the optimistic note kevin struck imagining that this the fallout from the scandal would ultimately be good for democracy my worry is that if the fallout from this scandal is regulated of the press and a much more rigorous enforcement of the existing rules as they affect the press is that you'll end up with a very regulated print media which will then be unable to. with the completely unregulated internet media and i'm not sure that if people become less reliant on the print media even on television news and more reliance on what they've seen from the internet that that would be good for democracy can you want to reply to that it's an interesting point well of course where we're actually seeing much less reliance on the print media the court of corporate media and of corporate television news people just don't trust any longer i'm sure it's true you mention in britain it's happening it's happening here dramatic drop some confidence

dramatic drops in viewership or readership we're seeing the same time is an increase in more democratic forms of media and it's not just the murdoch scandal that's going to add to this it's a whole series of events almost a perfect storm of events i would poke a little and you need a standpoint or a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on murdoch and his empire stay with our team. and see. if it's. a nature and discover is b.c. . communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free.

see what nature can give you. the mission of free accreditation free comes for charges free. range month free. free stereotype free. download free marketeers clothing videos for your media projects a free meal dog party dot com. case against storm. welcome back to rostock i'm carol about to remind you we're talking about murdoch under siege. the same case against same. ok kevin i'd like to go back

to you and maybe start with the question a question and we look at how competitive corporate media is today in this scandalous i demonstrating it is corruption a necessary ingredient to be competitive. well it will become even more. if the department of justice does not work aggressively to enforce the laws against murder and that's the you know i'm a big fan of the freedom of press and don't want to see the government you know investigating the time of the freedom of press does not give a license to break the law to tap phones to bribe officials those are illegal and they should be investigated as crimes and not be blocked by through the press and my saying earlier i see a greater democratization the media occurring not just because i'm murdoch but the lack of credibility of the media murdoch giving a million dollars plus the republican party and its n.b.c. and fox news to going to such partisan news outlets people just don't trust it anymore you want to see more democratized media things like wiki leaks for example

are also pushing in that direction by making it easy for people to anonymously provide information to the media through wiki leaks and then we can establish is it and then all of us can become media outlets the social networks the blogs the web sites and we all become media reporters and we can all interpret the news based on documents that are alarmist the leaks that's a democratization the media i think is a positive step i agree with toby that i don't want to see media more regulated but i do want to see media you know of this forced to obey basic criminal and laws against invasion of privacy ok kilby do you think media is held to a lower bar when it comes to obeying the law because you know we we we have woodward and bernstein you know looking for the bad guys you know interested in journalism we don't like that and we we like seeing journalists going after the bad guys and that's part of this story here but our journalists are held to a lower bar and doing their job. i think that. there's been a certain journalists being granted

a degree of latitude particularly tabloid journalists because mainly the people that they are breaking the law to find out about are celebrities sportsman and so forth and there is a huge amount of public sympathy when a celebrity gets caught with his pants down so they think well if you have to have his phone to get that story so be it doesn't cause public outrage there in the political outcry i think where where there are two to two distinguishing characteristics about this scandal i mean it really exploded when it was discovered that when anyway some news of the world reporters were accused of having listened into the voice mails of a missing girl who turned out to be dead and then deleted those voice mails after listening to them thereby destroying potential evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation that caused public outcry isn't that that that that triggered this murder koplowitz as we call it here the other reason i think is that the reason murdoch in particular i mean targeted not just because it's journalistic his newspapers were accused of wrongdoing it's also fueled by political analysts he's

generally thought to be a conservative and in the liberal left media in particular the guardian our most liberal newspapers really didn't doggedly pursuing this story now everyone knew that these kinds of things were going on not just on murdoch's papers were on all the tabloids and no one to the last government didn't do anything about it i think that's partly because rupert murdoch threw his weight behind the last two labor prime ministers it was only when he switched support to the conservative party that the labor party and the liberal left media became up on their high horse about these wrongdoings ok if i go to you dave i mean it it on our politics in the u.k. and i accept that is it all about fear in the united states because if you book our guys have pointed out to me it's our coverage very much in the united states i mean you know shareholders are afraid of people are afraid of getting on murdoch because they don't know which way it's going to blow in the us. yeah i would i would agree with toby that there is quite a bit of far too cozy relationship between the media in general and and

politicians and in news corp's case in particular fox news channel is widely regarded fairly or unfairly as is the organ of the republican party and i mean if you just look at look at who there are on air personalities personalities have been it's loaded with either current or potential presidential candidates from the republican party so it's no secret that fox news channel tends to favor a conservative point of view and if you're a politician on the right you certainly want to curry favor and if you're a politician on the on the left you have to be afraid of that attack machine coming after you and they've claimed a number of scalps in the pulpit in the political establishment here and nobody wants to put his or her neck too far out on the line. campaign if i go to you do you murdoch been successful because of corrupt business practices because we did

a program on this subject last week and we had a gentleman that was from the left but actually praised murdoch for his business model but maybe that business model was successful because of these prophecies. well yeah before this scandal broke you say it was aggressive business practices we know yet how aggressive the united states do they are as they're doing the u.k. cross the line of criminal behavior and if they are then i think his business model will not be seen as one that's worth worth copying and i agree with david that we do have this kind of cozy relationship between politicians and media united states in fact politicians need the media to get elected they need appear on the air to get elected they pay the media tens of millions of dollars in advertising revenue they raise money from billionaires or do their it's a symbiotic relationship between big business big media and big corporate ease and for she was led to as a total corruption of us to knock our city we know along our politics the reason

the people's interests we have parties that represent big business interests whether they're democrats or republicans we are politicians that kowtow to the media and play the twenty four hour media cycle we really don't care and i think that's one reason why you're seeing readership and viewership dropping people see this corrupt symbiotic relationship as undermining really any kind of any any functional government we have a dysfunctional government that can't be all health care can't deal with energy can't deal with climate we can't deal with any is issues it's a it's a disgrace. go ahead you know i was going to ask you go ahead joe you go first go ahead. i wouldn't ask you that you currently have a dysfunctional government in the united states we're still waiting for you to result in the debt ceiling we're very worried about that at the moment in europe i think one thing i would say in favor of one aspect of business model is that quite often subsidy goes on so he uses the profits from the more profitable parts of his business to subsidize the less profitable parts and in the u.k. for instance the news of the world and the sun the two best selling tabloids owned

by news international he's the profits for most papers are used to keep afloat and use paper called the times which is one of the oldest and most respected newspapers in this country. does that i think partly because of the political influence that having a respectable serious global newspaper gives him but also i think because of his love of newspapers you can see that in new york i mean he keeps the new york post afloat tens of millions of dollars a year i don't get that much political clout but he just clearly loves as he has for blood it's in his family and i think my worry is that if murdoch pulls out of the u.k. the times for one is going to close gave way why can't be well let's go back to the issue of regulation why can't there be regulations in separate countries where you can own one newspaper or a new or a television station or a television station what a magazine what why can't it be industry regulated from an ownership point of view where you don't have someone like murdoch that is so powerful particularly in the

u.k. and the united states we could avoid something like this upfront you know if you want to be in t.v. good be in t.v. but don't be in print. right well that's to be theoretically that is the case yeah that is the case and that's how that's how it was before rupert murdoch decided that he wanted to own t.v. stations and newspapers in the same and the same cities and through a very aggressive lobbying campaign was able to get an exception for that but now has become the rule of television stations and newspapers owned in the same owned by the same company in the same cities lead to two very troubling situations because. american democracy is founded on the principle that the marketplace of ideas will lead to better democracy and if you have a newspaper and now with with. several shared service agreements you can have the same company operating to television stations in the same city where it owns a newspaper and in

a smaller town there might be no competing newspaper there might be no competing television stations so in that sort of situation you've got one company. dominating and monopolizing the entire debate you're not going to get opposing points of view free press is an organization that is founded on the idea that loosening media consolidation and the corporate grip on media democratizing it through very various means including internet as kevin discussed and through better public media and through more diverse ownership will lead to a better democracy because people will look at opposing sides and you know just because i think it's easy for case you want your time you'll start talking about the the social good public good and that's almost never mentioned or seen in media today because it's just one big business and it's very competitive and very lucrative kevin what about that i mean his journalism really does detach itself from its roots of serving the public good. you know it has and i think that's also

partly because religion media and politicians used to be that we consider the year waves radio and t.v. public airwaves and public as you read early in the first question that the f.c.c. is mission and include a public interest that's almost disappeared even as the f.c.c. has mission you don't really hear much about anymore we don't even call the public arizona now we call the commercial media and that's been a major mistake and i hope that this scandal and the declining revenues and viewers and readers of commercial media. are starting to happen there we start to move back toward a public interest perspective that these are public airwaves and start to require me to do much more for the public good including giving everyone every kelli who goes i want to tell you the last word job you got the last word of the program go ahead i think the problem with. the state effectively playing a greater role in the media whether it's from subsidy or from a great deal ation through requiring the media to be more balanced and so forth and

so the public good is that that just becomes another mechanism for the state to control what's printed in the media maybe they just cut out the middleman they don't have to curry favor with rupert murdoch anymore they can just do it directly and i'm not sure that's a preferable system ok dave i'll give you the last last word go ahead what do you think. ok well you know i have i have i am a former journalist i feel better now but what i have what i've seen too much of when i was in the business and since i got out of the business is that too much of it depends on access you're not going to to a. point where i can do a lot of time many thanks so my guess would be in london baltimore and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember cross talk you. can.

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