sometimes. the. markets weiner scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy is cause a report on r g. seven thirty am in moscow these are your r.t. headlines norway mourns the victims of friday's bombing and shooting rampage that claimed the rise of at least ninety three people and shook the foundations of the country the norwegian man charged with carrying out the attack says his actions were both gruesome but necessary. thousands returned to the streets of madrid calling for the government to tackle unemployment and take action over the country's crippling recession it says greece gets the go ahead for another multibillion euro cash injection from the emu. no pie in the face

for rupert murdoch this week about the media mogul still faces an opening round of questions in the u.s. over phone hacking allegations murdoch and his son james were earlier grilled by the british parliament over the scandal that has shaken police politicians and the press. next month after hosni mubarak was ousted as the popular in a popular uprising in egypt peter lavelle on a panel of guests to talk about whether the revolution has really achieved its goals stay with us cross talk coming your way on our team. hungry for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on t.v. .

can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what does people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during the coming elections. came. across not what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of mira in london we go to now elsa dowie she's a writer and political activist and often referred to as the mother of the

revolution and in zurich we crossed the lower end zone but dino he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump any time you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. what it's really thought are used to say that it lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he is here in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the

question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what you see even the pension between moslems and christian copts and all of that it's just i think it's a big need for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed their election so that that if times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now and it would take us before seeing it all sorry you're right it was very interesting so it round you were at a very good point i got like to go. in london the military saying that you know they have to watch out for the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. they were but i. was

a very color and he used security and stability the same language american. language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice socially gashed since zero in quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me under of people went through the streets he quit since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak. but the body of that is still there they are in the military in the government in the media in university and i don't know who are going to learn and so on that point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime which is without its head in and this is really one of the reasons why i wanted to do

this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls are huge swaths of the economy i mean in many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways that the military yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military because it all down partially will change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is not simply the muslim brotherhood is the one who is pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree we ask for major sweeping changes immediately as

we should ask for a prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand bismo down certain things and that is problematic but i think speaks in a way of the defragmentation of the egyptian political class and the paper the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own for internal fragmentation it has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups are not being able to do so ok i think it's very interesting your sage egyptian liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they know that the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program or we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like it's a real reverse i'm going i head to head yes they're very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before the muslim brotherhood barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something

seats eight they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where in total are free but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brothers and i think they did somehow they divided the power you control as more the muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go through the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they want to take care of feel what you give them back is your vote and that's why you know that's not a. bad deal is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering. it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will go what hamas did in gaza they will go where the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in. liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want

to be out of their government what would we expect that would be there are there are there are there agenda there would be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i nor our piece people they will simply tell you we need more time chargen eyes for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relations we might have wished you were part of i would decide what our relations in the second half of the program and i'm not now what do you think about i mean. the muslim brotherhood very prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of what. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the not rather now because who supported the muslim brothers or so

that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do really i say george bush and then lead them out of twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or of the egyptian revolution in isolation from their super followers and there were. quite a ticks the muslim brotherhood this is not start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of generally started without the muslim brothers there was not there seemed. christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning when their revolution succeeded them the muslim brotherhood dry and are in the usual you do bet. also in just a few days of it's of delight with the second group the muslim brotherhood did not

share and they wouldn't even i didn't think they are against demonstrations but that me and of people in egypt are against thinking and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they die. but i'm going to go to you because if this is the muslim brotherhood is a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of people now lorenzo go ahead. yeah i'll course it is because of a lot of people i think you know the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical and i think the supreme council of the armed forces also as i probably know a lot of people i q's i'm of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five percent i qualified minority leader to be did the greatest party in

the you know the future egyptian parliament or how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in the fact that he had not been able to create to brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life that anyways do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with their position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false and i think the big dilemma here in washington now is after easier selfhood refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was to some degree and i critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in position now where the united states like knowledge of the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future if you try. government how you deal with them and their position a bit the clinton is speaking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to

everybody you know anybody who does not support violence and we have just wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach where the u.s. military is going it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to regroup and what do you think about that i mean i mean i like him but you have to deal with them yeah absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to why you called them and it became a mass it became a disaster astray ssion till today we're seeing that i think credible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what jordanian regime did they include ok we're going to jump in here we're going to wish your great and after that short break we'll continue our

discussion on egypt stay with our kids. you. want to use today violence has once again flared up. these are the images the world seen from the streets of canada. showing the gracious to rule the day. well see british scientists are. not surprised.

markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy because a report on our team. will . bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms of. the future coverage. and. welcome back to crossfire thank you all about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. to kick. start.

ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt there's a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in the power of the media or invest treats living in tents in back to you everywhere i have and confidence in the people but i would let the say something very important how mass was in cut each night is that you have to fight against that. and there then yeah that was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because of what happened that their colors be dictators the capitalists pollers they play fair i really just sort of one who should. be social use to have a revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent

who will use connivers of course and their allies like mubarak and said so they put it what they are afraid of but really socialists through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups to tell a few union egypt we have set up here that came like that through saudi arabia and the u.s. so we have to be really aware of the fact ok little connection lorenzo you were you were you were you were thinking why you're laughing and you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to see curatorial mindset and i said i'd like to say also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values are ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think all headlines are yeah let me. first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind blowing

because i mean there is one thing that the united states fears today if there's anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia. and i think what through i was talking about with hamas a finger exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so say enormous concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states and very far so i think that's a that's a for as you said you should point out you know you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically you did notice is that the best organized for political forces are the one bit take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force that has a massive popular support like the brotherhood can take over and i want to think the brotherhood will are going to say what i tell you this is crucial important this is one of the groups that are not organised one of the issues of this program

is hijacking and rule what it will you this is why i want to do this program he you see there's a fear that the and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because organization is very important you can get rid of the head of the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the power for size of our for the regime but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know the egyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes and you go to any mosque inside everywhere in the south of egypt is any simple enough even without the background or the education he will start saying something are bad and how and have when and how we should fight here and there they love got millions of votes let's be let's be clear about this when there are gender

is already ruler of all i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean that the one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with you see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same time this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way but you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from their own angle i live in egypt all my life i was in battery square all the time i feel that people yes there are millions who went to that is square or not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood few thousands they are organized but they odessa through seldom they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they live with them they are not

with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and now they are not you know are like us chained to you as a free liberal woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the propaganda about. what we are love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow in three months election you really think that they will not have that they will be that they will not win a lot of seats in parliament are you really think that they will not anyway ocean. you didn't follow their revolution the last sort of revision in egypt we said there will be no elections there is a pressure now upon the millions we have to put stop postpone the elections because

if we have elections now or in november or september or even end december that of course of the organized groups all organized groups not only of muslim brother but the always political parties group of barack will come but we are asking this is one of their very important demands of their evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the election still with changing the constitution with changing their the laws of political parties and all of the laws so that we give. to the young people into their new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and can enter the election ok reza i'll grant going to. hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be

a secular state will be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the grounds of the head so it's very difficult to see what is going to lose a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals praise me to save. but is as much as the liberals going again where did you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is where one of the communications so where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal that is very difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a good to get from islam is the poor to get from the liberal same trying to have at least the leaders talking about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic imprint the same way the sharia should be

to source of legislation which is exactly what the prosecution of the last thirty years has said so no difference in that the. sort of keep it at least the way it is if most elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think you're going to get a majority but a position of furtive per cent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question we're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand with some of the fear mongers here in the west thinking nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more show you have for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program is you can go ahead that was the kind of our foreign policy that if you want to talk about domestic politics but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not to look at kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these

people the more leverage you have on top of the list than the military didn't shoot anybody on trying not to shoot a lot of the fault i am sorry he clinton is not going. to do he had explained to me that i don't know nobody's telling me what he's not. why don't we say that i should but you know what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the lanes try to reside in and not in an ideological way where trying i mean it's right i'm not saying read it they just listen to me because i can write here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we know that the future of egypt i think all power not yeah. i think you should really start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the more it was the goal that was like three days but the longer they are

included talk that hillary they will show the right i want to jump in here and we're going to gran's all around zone because he is he is yes this is the end of my life because before we had a very dogmatic point of view in politics where do you think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean in respect of it secular or religious or is it yes the energy goes in the right also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as remains a strong ideological organization there's no question we're going to push come to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in your position you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern and to some degree they're going to have to govern or. you become more pragmatic then you are faced with the shoes on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment but then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey with the arab league but it's a completely different scenario and people brotherhood nosebag i mean you know way

we've been talking up the brotherhood of these super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never face to the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities as grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to me. and i think that's going to really change are going to create a lot of tensions in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing we have some internal friction staking place within the group so the brotherhood itself has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be better ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks to my guest today in rome and in and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember a prostitute. taking.

in india all these are made.