cross to lorenzo dino he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america are you folks this is cross talk that means you can jump any time you want my very much encourage it to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction what it's read it's all our lives to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak step down yes he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for

a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a big need for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that give times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now and it will take us before seeing it sorry you're in front of a very interesting story brown you were not very good point i got to go to. in london the military saying that you know they have to watch out for the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. the mubarak regime was a very color and he used security and stability the same language american

quinolone and language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice socially dresch says already quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me and of people who went to the streets to the here's with squids since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak the head of the energy but the body of that he is still there they are in the military in the government in the media in your universe you know i mean who am i going to learn and so on that point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime is just without its head and this is willie one of the reasons i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term

revolution yet because the the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls huge swaths of the economy i mean in many many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways by the military yes of course it's trying to maintain its power its economic power its hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially with change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is the products of the muslim brotherhood is the one of those pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as

they should be asked for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand busy low down on certain things and that is problematic bad i think speaks in a way the defragmentation. political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own private internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok well as i think it's very interesting you say liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they know what they're doing in the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like it's got a real rough first time going i had. yeah yeahs they are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before. muslim brother that barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred

something seats eight they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where a total of three but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did some how they divided the power you control as mother and muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the mind of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care of you what do you give them back is your vote and that's what you know that i don't. know is that that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering the exam it is. it's not that bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will do what the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want to be out of

their government what do what would you expect that would be there there are there are there agenda there would be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i minorities people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with i am and what kind of foreign relations we might have ok let's talk about what relations in the second half of the program now what do you think about that i mean the the. brotherhood a very pretty they're prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of lives. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brothers now because who supported the muslim brothers said

that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers usually i say george bush and bin ladden are twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and the word. politics the muslim brotherhood did not start the revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same islamic slogan or christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning and when that revolution succeeded then the muslim brother joined by in the usually do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of july with the second revolution the muslim

brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against the demonstrations but that me and of people in egypt are demonstrating and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join. going to you because if this is the muslim brotherhood is a political factor on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of people now lorenzo go ahead. of course there is evil as usual i think you know the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical level i think the the are the the supreme council of the armed forces also as i probably know a lot of people i. using of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five percent of qualified minority believe them to be did the greatest

party and they know the future egyptian parliament how do you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in the thank you they have not been able to create to untie brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life but anyways do not share these lowest platform and views and run against them and this is where the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with their position but views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is starkly false i think the big dilemma of air in washington now is after it yourself and refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was to some degree an eye for critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how you deal with them and the position a bit that clinton is taking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to

everybody who anybody with does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach where the u.s. can't let you know it's going it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to break through what do you think about that i mean you may not like him but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election i immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a called them and it became a mass it's become a disaster a situation till today we're seeing that i can credibly results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal with them is what jordanian regime did they included in the going to join me here let me go to your story ray and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on

egypt stay with r.t. . if you. want. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. charging corporations are on the day. well see british science is not. tied to the. markets why not scandal. what's happening to the global economy

cars report on our. world. bringing you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future covered. and. welcome back across town to hear all about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. and. ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt there's

a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in the power of the media in the streets living in tents into the square and everywhere i have confidence in the people but i would get the say something very important how mass was encouraged by is right in the fight against fat. and then ben ladden was encouraged by u s and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because what happened that the followers the dictators the capitalists pollers they play fair and really just sort of who should that and he and the social use to have a revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use connives or of course and then allies like mubarak and said then so

they put it what they are afraid of that really socialist through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups sell a few you need you know we have set up here that came like that through solid at a b. and the u. s. so we have to be really aware of that fact ok i want that connection lorenzo you were you were you were you were thinking why you were laughing and you want to make a comment there was i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to steer sinecure tauriel mindset and i said i'd like to also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yeah. well first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind blowing because i mean there is one thing that the united states fears today if there's

anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia. and i think what the rule i was talking about with hamas i think exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so said norma's concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but even the united states and treasury through far so i think that's a that's a first you said you should point to that how do you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically bad notices the best organized political forces are the one bit take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force but it has a massive popular support that like the brotherhood can take over and one of those i think the brotherhood will i mean this is a letter and tell you. this is one of the groups who are not organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what it will you that's why i want to

do this program you see there's a fear that the and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because organization is very important you can get rid of the head the the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with and it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the far both sides of power for the regime but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes you go to any mosque inside in everywhere in the south of egypt if any simple in even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there they want to get millions of votes let's be let's be clear about what is going on there are gender is already there i want to go back you know i want to go back to

well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with hezbollah we see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same time this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what do you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from their own angle i live in egypt all my life i was in fact how do you square all the time i feel the people yes the millions who went through that is where i would not be eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood a few thousands they are organized but they are just through cell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know the situation i feel i have confidence in the people because i live with them

they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and now they are not. i know our mind us chained to you as a free liberal woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the proper ganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that they will be that i am feeling they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament i really think that they will not anyway ocean. you didn't follow that revolution the last sort of relation in egypt we've said there will be no elections there is a pressure now form that millions we have to push stop postpone the elections

because if we have elections now or in november or september or even december the of course the organized groups all the organized groups not only the muslim brother but the old political parties bromo barak will come in but we are asking this is one of the very important demands of that revolution of the second revolution on july postponing the election still with changing the constitution with changes there the laws of political parties and all the laws so that we give time to the young people to the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and can enter the election ok. you're going to hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the both will

egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example so go ahead it's very difficult to see what. was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to save. that is as much as the liberals going to paint here that you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the u.s. as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is one of the few indications so where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal that is very difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a bit they get from the islamists and the poor they get from the liberals saying trying to have at least the latest talk is about some guidelines of what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic aim pray in the same way the sharia should be the source of legislation which is exactly what the

constitution of the last thirty years has said so no difference in bed to. sort of keep it at least the way it is if most elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think you're going to get a majority but opposition a furtive percent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question of they're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand but some of the fear mongers here in the west think nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question of going to be pushing for more shadier for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program yes you know go ahead i was going to write about foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not to cut down a relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these

people the more leverage you have on top of that listen the military didn't shoot anybody on your show into a lot of balls i am sorry i hate it clinton is not going to tell me what i'm going to do he had it came to me that i know nobody's telling what he's not the. what i would say that what i should what you know what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the lane try to resign and not in an ideological way where trying to i mean ascribe. to it just listen to me because i could try to pry my mind here i mean we are not talking out of ideology we should three ways and as we know that the future of egypt i think all power i am not yet i lead a nation i think you and should you really start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the more it was the goal that was like three days but the moment they are willing to adopt the word they will show the right i'm going to jump in here and

we're going to go and so lorenzo and jesse is yes this is the end of my life because before we had a very dogmatic point of view in politics i do think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular religious yes the energy goes in the right also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as you remain such a strong ideological organization there's no question when push comes to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern to some degree they're going to have to govern in a band you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment that then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for it do the destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey with the arab league but it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in a way we've been talking of the brotherhood as this super powerful group but it has

its problems and it is never face the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities its grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to me. and i think that's going to really change is going to create a lot of tension in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal frictions taking place within the group so the brotherhood itself has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks to my guest today in rome and in and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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a great way to go to the grand imperial truly towards west coast coromandel you can a letter to close the show which says don't need to go publicly and rather said the colonel was her job as used to retreat. show of indignation spaniards united in anger over their government's failure to deal with data mass unemployment as thousands rally on the streets of madrid. the mastermind behind the worst peacetime massacre in norway is history is to appear in court to explain why he carried out a twin terror attack that claimed over a ninety lives. plus germany makes one a deterrent and stands on nato intervention in libya and approves eight hundred million euro loaned to the rebels.

and am of the russian capital you're watching r t a marina joshie welcome to the program thousands of protesters are packing out central madrid angry of the economic woes engulfing spain demonstrators from all across the country have been marching for weeks to demand quick action to deal with the country's debt a mass unemployment. was in madrid to hear why the protesters now known as the indignance have to say. the cash in spain is going mainly down the drain at least that's the opinion of thousands of people who rallied across the country you know like you were going to pose in the footsteps of eleven american countries by mexico the government is controlled by the in then. they don't care about the people and so the people decided it's time to voice their concerns loud and clear before the abuse more than just the shirt off their back spain has one of the

highest unemployment rates in the eurozone so while the european leaders have been occasionally meeting and comfortable quarters to talk about the future of the euro and the european union itself people in the country have been demonstrating on an almost weekly basis demanding the government shape up stop talking and do something about the situation this is not just about higher wages and better pension plans with more than forty percent of young people in spain unemployed simply getting a job is a priority for those gathered in the trades central square the big part of the responsibilities from the government. because the government first of all people not to create the conditions at the beginning of the prices to fight against the crisis it reacts very late and on the other hand once the government. what to do the government.