british soil. that's what i. want. for the. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy cars report on our. welcome back to join us you're watching ninety coming to live from moscow i'm marina joshie and these are the top stories spaniards unite in anger over the our government's failure to deal with the country's economic woes as thousands rally on the streets of madrid spain has the highest unemployment rate in the eurozone with over twenty percent of the population out of work. and the u.s. is struggling to strike a political deal over its own debt crisis with possible the fold looming next week

hillary clinton has a tampa tries to reassure asia's markets promising an agreement will be found. the mastermind behind the worst peacetime massacre in norway's histories to appear in court to explain why he carried out a twin terror attack that claimed over ninety lives anders behring breivik has admitted responsibility say these actions were not a crime but a call for change. and germany makes a one eighty turn in stance on nato intervention in libya and approves a hundred million euro loan to the rebels and take it off campus also in line for a militant multi-billion dollar cash injection from the international community and when they hand over the libyan leader's frozen assets. they have lines coming up next peter crosstalk months after hosni mubarak was ousted in a popular uprising in egypt you know lavelle and his guest discuss whether the revolution has really achieved its goals stay with us here at r.t.

. liz. you can. follow in welcome to cross out i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what does people's power mean there today and could a revolution be hijacked during upcoming elections. cross-talk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's

a journalist and author of miral in london we go to now el saadawi she's a writer and political activist in the often referred to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed the lower end zone and you know he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump any time you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. but it's really it's all our lives to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak step down yes he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch our very closely because what they're doing is they are giving

a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian copts and all of that it's just i think it's a big need for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that if times through the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now you know it will take us before seeing it sorry you're here for a very interesting story ground you have a very good point i'd like to get in there in london the military saying that you know they have to watch over the security situation this is what to say that's what

mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. they were bought out. was every color and he used security and stability the same language american. language british colonial language security stability we never speak about justice socially gauche since o.e. quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that you give people to me under people you went to the streets with square since twenty five january and of course we got three of the head of the team but the body of very dream is still there they are in the military in their government in the media in universities like

everywhere and i begin to lorenzo on that point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime which is without its head in and this is really one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can be actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls are huge swaths of the economy i mean it in many many ways it's nice to know revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising in a way is that the military yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially with change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is not simply the muslim brotherhood is the one that is pushing for elections as soon as possible.

while the liberals are the ones that are going down the process. which is a paradox because on some degree may ask for major sweeping changes immediately should we ask for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand bismo down on certain things and that is problematic bad i think speaks in a way the defragmentation egypt's political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own probably internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rule as i think is very interesting or so gyptian and liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they don't do it the muslim brotherhood is out there and i wanted to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and there are getting prepared for the like it's got a real rough first i'm going to go ahead. yes they are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the

parliamentary last election the one before the muslim brother the barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats eight they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where in total is free but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brothers i think they did some how they divided the power you control as modern muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go through the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these issues the muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care of you what you give them back is your vote and that's lemole god of. israel is it that's not a valid view is it i mean considering. it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza

they will go where the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choices what would be out of their government what do what would we expect that will be there there are there are there agenda there will be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to mohamed el baradei today or i nor all of these people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relation we might have ok let's chill with sort of our desires our relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about that i mean. the. some brotherhood they're prepared prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of like. i would like to say we cannot separate the

power of god not rather now because who supported the muslim brothers or so that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do really i say george bush and then lead them out of planes so we cannot discuss the muslim brotherhood or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their super powers and their work. quite attics the muslim brotherhood does not start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of ghana already started without the muslim brothers there was not the same be. christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning when that evolution succeeded then

that most of them rather dry and are paying the usually do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of july with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against to demonstrate sions but the neons of people in egypt are against and so the muslim brothers have no choice so the drawing. is only going to you because it is the muslim brotherhood is a political factor on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok in this party with a lot of you know the answer go ahead. of course any sort of oh if you will i think you know the problem is. how you do that on a practical and i think the our need the supreme council of your own forces also as i probably know a lot of people at. using of striking a deal with the brotherhood that which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably

acquire a twenty five thirty percent of qualified minority will lead him to be did the greatest party in the near future egyptian parliament how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in that they could have not been able to create a. brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life that anyways do not share these almost platform and views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with their position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma there in washington now is out there either silva refusing to even talk to the brotherhood to. some degree and i think critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states of knowledge is that the brotherhood is

a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how you deal with it and the position of the clinton is taking right now it's relatively sound wind we talk to everybody you anybody who does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach with it you have to look at it it's good it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to regroup and what do you think about that i mean you may now like them but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election it occupied territories in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a card that i think we can amass it's become a disaster a strange until today we're seeing that incredible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is

with the jordanian regime because they included in the going to jump in here we go to your story ray and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt today with our kate. snow. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms. of the future coverage. download the official tee up location of the i pod touch from the. child's life on the go.

video on demand keys my old calls and says feeds now in the palm of your. case. welcome back across town to about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution . in egypt. ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt this is going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in the power of the media invest treats living in tents

in the square and everywhere i have power and confidence in the people but i would like to say something very important how mass was in cottage by israel in the fight against facts. then you had and was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because of what happened that their colors the dictators the capitalist pollers they play fair i delete your solution that he only socialist revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use connives of course and their allies like not barak and so then so be it what they are afraid of the real socialists through of the millions and that's why they encourage such high mass muslim

brothers religious groups tell a few you need you know we have set up here that came like that through saudi arabia and the u.s. so we have to really aware of that fact ok with that connection lorenzo you were you were you were you were thinking why you were laughing go ahead you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to see a signatory of mine i said i'd like to also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yellow let me. well first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups is just mind blowing because i mean there is one thing that the united states fears today if there's anything islam is still i think you can accuse them of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia of and i think we're through i was talking about with hamas something go exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so say

enormous concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states information that's too far so i think that's a bit so far as you said you should point out you have no you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in for you square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically you've been on this is the best organized for political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force has a massive popular support like the brotherhood can take over and not one of those or think the brotherhood will i'm going to say but until you do this is usually important this is one of the groups who are not organized one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule whether you will you that's why i want to do this program it you see there's a fear that the and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because morgan is ation is very important you can get

rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the power of course size of power for the regime but the car of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes you go to any mosque inside and everywhere in the south of egypt and any simple in man even without a background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there then i've got millions of thought let's be let's be clear about this when there are gender is already there i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is it is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with hezbollah we see that with

a mass and i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same that this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what you think about that rather than what they think is everybody is speaking from their own angle i live in egypt all my life i was in fact that is where all of the time i feel the people yes the media and who went to that is where i would not be eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood a few thousands they are organized but they are just to sell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i believe in egypt so i know the situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they leave with that they are not with the muslim brotherhood. they are not you know our mind yes chimpy you as a freeloader

a woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the propaganda about. when we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that there will be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament i really think that they are not anyway ocean. yet you didn't follow that evolution the last three lucian in egypt we said there will be not actions there is a pressure now from the millions we have to post but postponed the elections because if we have elections now already in november or september or even december there of course the organized groups the board organized groups not only have one

brother but the political parties broadly but we've come in but we are asking this is one of the very important demands of that evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the election still with changing the constitution which changes there the laws of political parties and all of them knows so that we give. to the young people to the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and their the election ok reza what are the lines going to germany i'd like you going to hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean are you bound to both egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the answer go ahead it's very difficult to see what are you serious it was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum

a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to say that that is. that you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge right of people stay and unfortunately that is one of the communications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal very very difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a good to get from these. and the poor they get from the liberals saying trying to have at least the latest talk is about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic imprint the same to the sharia should be distortion of legislation which is exactly what be shown the last for years has said so no difference invent the. sort of keep it at least the way it is if the actions of brotherhood where to acquire

a position of more influence i don't think we're going to get a majority but a position of furtive percent something around that number we've alliances i think there's no question of they're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do spend with some of the fear mongers here in the west being for nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to pushing for more show you have for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program it's a go go ahead i was going to write about policy but if you want to talk about domestic policy states and i want to just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not the kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody going to try to shoot a lot of people i am sorry i hated clinton is not going to pay me like i'm going to

do he had it clinton is that part all right i know nobody's telling you what he's not the one and only say that like what you know what i would like to see that the agent can give lucia in the lane try to resign not even ideological way where trying i mean it's right not there not saying rather listen to me because i can write a play man here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we know that lots of the future of egypt i think all power not your highly i think you should read. please start talking about the muslim brothers i have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are some think the more like the well that was like st paul's but the longer they are anglo they don't know learned english so they're right i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go hands on lorenzo casey is the yes yes these are the end of my days before we had a very dogmatic point of view on politics i do think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its

secular or religious he's a yes you know he goes in the right also he can sort of brotherhood as much as he remains a strong ideological organisation there's no question when push comes to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern and to some degree they going to have to govern then you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment but then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for do destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey with the arab league it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in a way we've been talking up the brotherhood of these super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never face the the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its work because it's grassroots activities it

has never really be confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change are going to create a lot of tensions in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal frictions taking place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks and i guess today in rome london and in zurich thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember a prostitute. all

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