sometimes. margetts weiner scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy because the reports on our t.v. . welcome back it's also if you a live from moscow a quick summary now of the main headlines spaniards unite in anger over the government's failure to deal with the country's economic worse as thousands rally in the streets of madrid spain it meantime has the highest unemployment rate in the eurozone with over twenty percent of the population out of work. and the u.s. is struggling to strike a political deal over its own debt crisis with a possible default looming next week hillary clinton has attempted to reassure

asia's markets promising an agreement will be found. the first court appearance of the mastermind behind the worst peace time massacre in norway's history is close to the public and media on the judge's order. in germany makes a one eighty turn in its stance on nato intervention in libya and approves a hundred million euros loan it to the rebels the answer could be cameras also in line for a multi-billion dollar cash injection from the international community if and when they hand over the libyan leader's frozen assets. but months after hosni mubarak was ousted in a revolution in egypt people about his guests discuss whether it has achieved any of the goals that people were really hoping for so it's coming up next in crosstalk stay with us who are not saying.

liz. can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what is people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during upcoming elections. can. start. cross-talk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of miral in london we go to now elsa dowie she's a writer and political activist in i often refer to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed a little enzo but you know he's an academic and security expert who specializes in

islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump any time you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. but it's really too early to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for

a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian copts and all of that it's just i think it's a pick me for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in our country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that if times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now you know it would take us to be foreseeing ill sorry you're in for a very interesting story ground you are very good point i got like you going out there in london the military saying that you know they have to watch over the security situation this is what you say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. why. they were bought out. was every color and he used security and stability

the same language american quinolone any language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice socially gushed oh he quietly of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me on the people went to the streets. since twenty five january and of course we got freed of the head of the. but the body of there is still there they are in the military in their government in their media in universities like everywhere i go to learn and so on the point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime which is without its head in and this is really one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term

revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls are huge swaths of the economy i mean it in many many ways is there's been no revolution whatsoever to say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know the military yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power it's hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military can slow down partially will change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as a rule i was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so it is not mr lots of the muslim brotherhood is the one that is pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones going down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as

they should be asked for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand visit lowdown on certain things and that is problematic but i think speaks in a way of the defragmentation egypt's political class and the fact that a brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own probably internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rw i think it's very interesting your sage egyptian liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they. are the muslim brotherhood is out there and i wanted to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they are getting prepared for the like it's a real response and i have. yes there are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election though the parliamentary last election the one before the muslim brother that barak brothers they won eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats

eight they won eighty seats in a country that we know that the election weren't totally free but the regime had to give something and make a deal with a muslim brother and i think they did somehow they divided the color you control as modern muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go through the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they would take care of you what do you give them back is your vote and that's. really is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering. it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will go where the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what

we want to be out of their government what do what we do expect that will be there there are there are there agenda there will be it just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i minorities people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relations we might have if you wish you were part of our desires our relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about i mean. the. brotherhood they're prepared for paired for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of lives. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brotherhood now because who supported the muslim brothers

said that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers usually i say george bush and then lead them out of planes so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and their work. quite attics the muslim brotherhood did not start their evolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same. old christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning when that revolution succeeded then got muslim brother joined our pain we usually do that also in just a few days ago on be it's of july with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood

did not share and they wouldn't even against it and today they are against the demonstrations but the media and of people in egypt are demonstrating and so the muslim brothers have no choice so the drawing. is only going to you because if this is the muslim brotherhood is a political factor on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of heat now lorenzo go ahead. of course there is sort of a lot as usual i think you know that the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical and i think the the are the supreme council of your own forces also as i probably know a lot of people i know. some of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire at twenty five thirty percent a qualified minority leader to be did the greatest party in maine or the future

egyptian parliament or how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in that they could have not been able to create a brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life but anyways do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with your position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma here in washington now is after it yourself refusing to even talk to the brotherhood to which was something you and i critical and good not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states like knowledge is a brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in a future egyptian government how do you deal with that and the position of the clinton is speaking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to everybody you

any value does not support violence and we have just wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach with that you have to look at it is kind of it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to regroup what do you think about that i mean i mean i like him but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election i immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a card that i think we can amass it's become a disaster a stray sion till today we're seeing that i incredible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what the jordanian regime did they included in the going to jump in here we're going to we're sure great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our keep. you.

safe. if you follow up on my debt snowball the. car sort of a throwback in the hard part of our law. and it goes back to a time when people would bite out of their horses in the wild lands and pick up these huge it's important to mention the sheriff the prosecution know what company may follow. them when they go out there because when it comes to. hope that nothing bad. loans.

were chasing killers and you got to keep that in mind others are to me a dollar bill because the rest. were not superheroes you can be killed today no base should be in the head i'm going to die. and. once you hunted man you're never go back on anything else hungry for the full story we've got it from the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. her . and. welcome across town about to remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. ok. ok now i do

go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt is it going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values. yes i have confidence in their power of the millions for our industries living in tents in companies square and everywhere i have power and confidence in the people but i would like to say something very important how mass was encouraged by israel to fight against that. bin laden was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because what happened there their followers the haters the capitalists powers they can a fair and religious revolution then any early socialist revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who are use can

eyes of course and their allies like not barak and so then so be it what they are afraid of the real socialists through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups to tell a few years in egypt we have set up here that came like that through saudi arabia and the us so we have to really aware of the fact talk a lot of that connection lorenzo you are you are you are in europe you can live your life in god and you want to make a comment there because i really just have our ways i'd like to see a security oriel mine so i said i might also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yellow let me think. first of all i mean really just it's just insane the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind

blowing because it interferes with one thing that the united states fears today is anything islam mr i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic full. and i think with the rule i was talking about with hamas i can get exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so say enormous concern somebody islamist groups of all shapes but in the united states and probably too far so i think that's about so far as you said you should be thinking he pointed you are going to the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these are huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically you've been known to say that the best organized for political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do you know ron is a great example of that so an organized course but it has a massive popular support that like the brotherhood can take over and not one of those that think the brotherhood will rule i'm going to say what i tell you this is crucial important this is one of the groups who are not organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what it will you that's why i want to do this

program here you see there's a fear that the and i'm not going to focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because we're going to say she is very important you can get rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the far north side of power for the regime but the core of the muslim brothers who are well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes you go to any mosque in sorry it in everywhere in the south of egypt is any simple in even without the background and or the education you will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there they love got millions of both let's be let's be clear about how good it is

going there are gender is are you are all i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with her we see that with a mouse i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same to this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way when you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from their own angle i live in egypt all my life i was in fact how do you square the thigh i feel the people years the millions who went through that is where i would not be eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood a few thousands they are organized but they are just to sell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know the situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they you with them

they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and now they are not really no one mind us chimpy you as a freeloader a woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not a proper ganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow on three month's election you really think that they will not have that there will be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament really think of a lot anyway ocean. if you didn't follow that evolution the last three lucian in egypt we said there will be not actions there is a pressure now for not millions we have to post but postponed the elections because

if we have elections now or in november or supported that or even december there of course the organized groups the old organized groups not only of muslim brother but the political parties brought more butter will come in but we are asking this is one of their very important did not on of that evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the elections team would change the constitution would change their the laws of political parties and all of those so that we give. to the young people into their new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and content there the election ok reza what are the lines going to germany i'd like to know you spoke one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and will it be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the egypt have

its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the answer go ahead it's very difficult to see much more you see as i was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to save it that is. not anywhere that you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is one of the communications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal very very difficult to see i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a good to get from these. and the poor we get from the liberals seem trying to have at least the leaders talk is about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic aim to simply show you should be the

source of legislation which is exactly what the constitution of the last year says said so no difference in vet. sort of keep it at least the way it is if the actions the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think we're going to get a majority but a position of thirty percent something around that number we've alliances i think there's no question of they're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing could you stand with someone if your mongers here in the west think of nothing like that against afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more show you're for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program it's a go go ahead i was going to write about foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics it's great but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not the kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these

people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody on trying to shoot a lot of people i am sorry i hate any clinton is not going to pay me what i'm going to do he added clinton is that all right i know how your body is telling yeah i'm he's not the one i would say that one should well know what i would like to see that the egyptian revolution the lanes try to reside in and not in an ideological way where trying i mean is prime i don't think rather a guest listen to me because i can write here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we are that looks at the future of egypt i think all power not yet highly nation i think you and three. least part talking with a muslim brother i have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the motorways the call that one place remains but a are and will again i don't know learned english so that right i jump in here and

we're going to hands all around so is easy to gaze yes this the end of my life before we had a very dogmatic point of view on politics i do think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular religious yes the energy goes in the right also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as remains a strong ideological organisation there's no question about push come to shove they're going to be more pragmatic for it because one thing is where you are in your position you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have the governing to some degree they're going to have to go over and then you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment but then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do destruction of israel another thing is actually how do you interact with hamas with the us with turkey with the arab league but it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in

a way we've been talking up the brotherhood of various super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never faced the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its work because it's grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change are going to create a lot of patience in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing we have some internal frictions taking place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be better ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks and i guess today in rome london and in zurich thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember prost are. taking.

in india all she's afraid of the move go.