margetts why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in these kinds of reports on our t.v. . welcome back to you live from moscow to recap our top stories thousands of spanish demonstrators a venting their fury in madrid over soaring unemployment the government's handling of the struggling economy the protesters accuse the leaders of being dictated to by brussels and the i.m.f. instead of focusing on the people's needs. and across the atlantic america is rushing to reassure its nervous investors that it can stave off an ever encroaching default that's even though the president legislators continue to squabble over how

to lift the fourteen trillion dollar debt. and annoy you falls silent to remember the victims of the oslo bombing and the massacre i mean to you sometimes police have reduced the number killed in the twin terrorist attack now to seventy six saying there were difficulties in gathering information off the ground. as the headlines here and see in half an hour's time. syria is here next there was people of crosstalk and this time the guests debate whether egypt's revolt is one step forward and two steps back thank you for watching. can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what is

people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during upcoming elections. to cross-talk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of new route in london we go to now el saadawi she's a writer and political activist in the often referred to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed the lower end zone but you know he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump anytime you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. but it's really too early to say that it lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes

he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day in terms of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that and. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch our very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today kamar oh but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian copts and all of that it's just i think it's a big need from their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that if times through the

groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next election it's very interesting that you are now you know it will take us before seeing it sorry you're in for a very interesting story ground you've got a very good point i got to get in there in london the military saying that you know they have to watch over the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. why. they were bought out. was every corner and he used security and stability the same language american quinolone language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice socially gashed own quietly of independence of egypt so you know now we have to be very very aware and i have really

proud now that the egyptian people to me on the people went to the streets. quit since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak. but the body of very dream is still there they are in the military in their government in their media in university and i don't know who and i got a letter and so on that point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime is just without its head and this is willie one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of the regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls huge swaths of the economy i mean if in many many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways by the military yes of course it's trying to maintain its power to konami power hold on

egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military can slow down partially will change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is not simply the muslim brotherhood is the one who is pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones that are going down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as they should be asked for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand visit lowdown on certain things and that is problematic bad i think speaks in a way off the defragmentation egypt political class and the paper the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own private internal fragmentation it has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups are not being able to do so ok well as i think it's very interesting your sage egyptian liberals are afraid of the people said

differently because they know what they're doing the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like it's a real response and i had. yes there are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election though the parliament the last election the one before the muslim brother that barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats eight they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election aren't totally free but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did somehow they divided the power you control as muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially

if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will fake care if you what do you give them back is your vote and that's what we know that a lot of. real is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering exactly. it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will go where the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what we want to be out of their government what to what we do expect that will be there there are there are there agenda there will be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to mohamed el baradei today or i'm a nor are these people they were simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their

lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relations we might cattle you know the shuttle was sort of i would decide what our relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about i mean. the. some brotherhood very prepared prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of like. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the not rather now because who supported the muslim brothers said that mubarak the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do only i say george bush and then lead them are twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and there were. quite attics the muslim brotherhood did not start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority

that evolution on between q five of gen he started without the muslim brothers there was not that same deal. old christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning when that revolution succeeded then the muslim rather grind on in the usual you do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of late with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against the demonstrations but the neons of people in egypt are against treating and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join in on the air circle around tahrir square as we're going to you because it is the muslim brotherhood is a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok he's popular with a lot of people you know the answer go ahead. of course in syria of all as usual i

think you know the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical and i think the army the supreme council of the armed forces also as i probably know a lot of people at. using of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five percent of qualified minority will lead him to be did the greatest party in maine or the future egyptian parliament or how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in that they could have not been able to create the brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life but anyways do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american

perspective i would disagree with your position views the united states as having never supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma there in washington now is out there either solve it refusing to even talk to the brother or the which was something you and i call critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how do you deal with them and the position a bit the clinton is taking right now it's for people who sound one we talk to everybody you anybody who does not support violence and we have just wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we cannot longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach but that you have to look at its core it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to regroup what do you think about that i mean i mean i like them but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from

what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a car that i became a mass it's become a disaster a stray sion till today we're seeing that i incredible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what about jordanian regime did they included in the going to join me here when it was sure great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt today with our. kate. snow. if you followed up on my debt snowball the.

car sort of a trail back in the market part of our long. and it goes back to a time when people would lie down in their forces in the wild lands and pick up these huge debts important to mention the sheriff for prosecution there's no one company may. go out there because when. you have to hope that nothing bad. loans. were chasing killers and you got to keep that in mind others the two million dollars bill because the rest. were not superheroes you can be killed to you know if they shoot me in the head i'm going to die. and. bunch of hundred men you know never go back to us anything else. if. that

gave. the law became a. welcome and across town for about three mind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. ok now and i could go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt is it going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values. yes i have

confidence in their power of the millions for our in the streets living in tents increase square and everywhere they have power and confidence in their people but i would let them say something very important how mass was encouraged by israel to fight against fattah. and. then yeah that was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because what happened at the colors be dictators the capitalist dollars they play fair i really just sort of lucian that he at least social used to have a revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use can own eyes of course and then allies like mubarak and said that so deeply what they are afraid of the real socialists through of the millions and

that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups sell a few union egypt we have set up here the camp like that through saudi arabia and the u. s. so we have to really aware of the fact that connection lorenzo you are you are you are you are thinking why you are laughing and you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to see a secure tauriel mind i said i'd like to also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think all headlines are yellow let me. first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups is just mind blowing because i mean there is one thing with the united states fears today if anything is what mr i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic

phobia. and i think what rula was talking about with hamas if you go exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so it's a enormous concern about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states information got to them through far so i think that's a that's a for as you said you should be thankful he pointed out you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically bad not necessarily the best organized for political forces are the one big takeover and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do you know ron is a great example of that so i organize force but it has a massive popular support like the brotherhood can take over and i want to both i think the brotherhood will i'm going to say let's show you this is crucial important this is one of the groups that are not organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what do you what do you this is why i want to do this program it you see there's a fear and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that

could hijack this because organization is very important you can get rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchorwoman as a t.v. show and i stay there in two thousand and eight and i saw the far far side of the arab of the region but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know the egyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes and you go to any mosque inside in everywhere in the south of egypt if any is simple enough even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there then i've got millions of dollars let's be let's be clear about this are going there are gender is already there i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is

the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with you see that with hamas and i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean if the same for this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what do you think about that i won't wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from their own angle i live in egypt all my life i was in paris where all of the pie i feel the people yes the millions who went through that is where are not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood few thousands they are organized but they are desperate to sell them they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i believe in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they live with them they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got

injured and they are not. like us shown to you as a free liberally woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the proper ganda about. what we all love egypt we all support evolution we are proud of this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that there will be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament are they really think that they will not only ocean. it you didn't follow their revolution the last sort of revision in egypt we said there will be not elections there is a pressure now from the millions we have to push start postponed the elections because if we have elections now already in november or september or even december

there of course of the organized groups all organized groups not only of muslim rail brither but the all political parties problem of the ira will come in but we are asking this is one of their very important demands of their evolution of the second revolution on a july postponing the election still would change the constitution would change their the laws of political parties and all of the laws so that we give. to the young people to the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and then bear the election ok the result of the ranch going to do you suppose one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example grandfather had

so it's very difficult to see what. was a vault in egypt should people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said to save. but is as much as the world's going to do you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the u.s. as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical zouaves to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is where one of the communications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal that is very difficult to see i think the really very right now is trying to balance the two forces the push president get from islam is the pool that they get from the liberals same trying to have at least the leaders talk is about some guidelines of what the constitution should look like and of course it has. to say to show you should be distortion of legislation which is exactly what the constitution of the last thirty years has said so no difference in that the. sort of keep it at least

the way it is if most elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think you're going to get a majority but a position of furtive percent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question i'm going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand with some of the fear mongers here in the west thinking nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more show you have for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program is you know go ahead i was kind of our foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics and i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so i'm. and that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the list than the military didn't shoot

anybody don't try not to shoot a lot of people i am sorry i hated clinton is not going. to do here repeating to me is that i don't know nobody is telling yes he's not the one i only say that i'm sure but you know what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the lane try to resign in a nod and ideological way where try and i mean his right i'm not saying read it but he just listen to me because i think on the right i think here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we know that look at the future of egypt i think all power i'm not united nations i think you should really start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the more it was the goal that was like three days but the morning they are included talked it over and they were sure the right are going to jump in here and we're going to go rounds and rounds on his e.s.c.'s yes this is the end of my

life because before we had a very dogmatic point of view on politics or do you think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular religious yes even if it goes on the right also when it comes to the brother british marsh's remains a strong ideological organization there's no question when push comes to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in your position you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern in some degree they're going to have to govern a very you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix our economy which is completely missed stop at the moment but then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for the destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey. we have the arab league that's a completely different scenario and if the brotherhood knows bad i mean in a way we've been talking about the brotherhood of this super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never face to the responsibility of governing but

actually doing something aside from its activities its grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change i'm going to create a lot of patience in the brotherhood in which to some degree we're already seeing we have some internal friction stake in place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic because the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks and i guess today in rome london and in zurich and they sort of you are watching us here archy see you next time and remember a prostitute. in

india all she's afraid of being the moviegoer.