he's available in the movie joint t.v. show rooms you know movie that's a great way to go to the brandon period during the george weston to school until you can a little children with the job see duty to go and look silly and run the city the colonel was neutral as used to retreat. welcome back here's a recap of the main stories we're covering for you are the spanish demonstrators are venting their fury in madrid over a soaring unemployment and the government's handling of the struggling economy the protesters accuse their leaders of being dictated to by brussels and the i.m.f. instead of focusing on the people's needs. across the atlantic now america's rushing to reassure its nervous investors that it can stave off an ever and approaching default well that's even though the president's ad

legislators continued to squabble over how to lift the fourteen trillion dollar debt limit. and over a hundred thousand people gathered in the hallways capitol on monday to mourn the seventy six victims of friday's atrocities the man who admits to also those bombing and the massacre at an island to count is charged with terrorism. and that peter lavelle's cross-talk gas debate whether egypt's revolt is one step forward two steps back that's coming up next. hungry for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. who can.

follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what is people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during the upcoming elections. in. crosstalk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of miral in london we go to now elsa dowie she's a writer and political activist in the often referred to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed the lower end zone to dino he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump anytime you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. but it's really too early to say that it's lived up to

expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today yes he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're parra way from that. that the behavior of the military is is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems think christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a big need from their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was

positive lately that they delayed they like shame so that that gives times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections for it's very interesting that you are now you know it will take us before seeing it sorry you're right it is very interesting story ground you were up a very good point i got i got another in london the military saying that you know they have to watch over the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. way. the mubarak regime was a very clear. and he used security and stability the same language american. language british colonial language security stability they never speak about justice social guests or in quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have

really proud now that the egyptian people to me on the people went to the streets of the square since twenty five january and of course we got rid of nobody. but the body of very dream is still there they are in the military in their government in the media in your universe you know like everywhere i go to lorenzo on the point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime which is without its head in and this is willie one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls are huge swaths of the economy i mean in many many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know the military

yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially would change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as a rule it was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so the islamists are lots of the muslim brotherhood is the one who is pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones going down the process. which is a paradox because in some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as we should yes or prosecution of the of individuals feeling for the regime but on the other hand bismo down certain things and that is problematic that i think speaks in a way of the defragmentation. political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own probably internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of

a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rw i think it's very interesting research egyptian liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they do the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program or we can talk about it now they're very well organized and there are getting prepared for the like it's got a real reverse time going i head to head yeah yes they are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before that the muslim brotherhood barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something see they they want eighty seats in a in a country that we know that the election where a total of three but the regime had to give some playing and make a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did somehow they divided the power you control as a mother muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the matter of the hospitals health care

these issues the muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care of you when you give them back is your vote and that's why you know that. part's not a bad deal is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering exam it is so far it's not a bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will do what the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in. terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want to be out of their government what to what we expect that will be there are there are there are there agenda there will be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i minorities people they were simply tell you we need more time to

organize for the next election and sure people are agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relations we might have but you were sort of i was i was relations in the second half of the program and i'm not now what do you think about that i mean. the muslim brotherhood they're prepared prepared for this election here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of what. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brotherhood now because who supported the muslim brothers so that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do really i say george bush and then lead them out of planes so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and the word. politics the muslim brotherhood does not

start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution on the twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same deal islamic. or christian or religious it was a very sick. from the beginning when their revolution succeeded them the mausoleum rather dry and by being the usual you do that. no just he would be the girl it's of delight with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they wouldn't even against it until they are against demolished nations but me and the people in egypt again and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join. us but i'm going to you and i say this if they don't get the muslim brotherhood is

a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of people now lorenzo go ahead. yeah of course it is because of a lot of people i think you know the problem is. how you do we got on a practical and i think the the irony the supreme council of the armed forces also as as a probably knew a lot of people i q's and of striking a deal with the brotherhood. which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire are twenty five thirty percent qualified minority leader to be the greatest authority in the you know the future egyptian parliament or how you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in that they could have not been able to create to untie brotherhood the coalition know where you have forces from all walks of life but anyway do not share these almost platform and views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally in egypt in egypt

lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of an international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with your position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma there in washington now is out there easier sell for refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was something i thought critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states had knowledge of the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the egyptian future. government how you do with them and the position that clinton is taking right now it's for if you sound one we talk to everybody you anybody who does not support violence and we have just wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we can or we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach with that you have to look at it it's going it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to break through what do you think about that i mean you may not like him but you have to deal with them yeah absolutely

absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election and occupied territories in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a car that and it became a mass it became a disaster assist wait until today we're seeing that i'm credible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what the jordanian regime did they included in the job name here let me go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our kids. to take.

well to the. what makes a big splash in the world of high tech business what turns events science into i.q. products to going to understand our health easy steps we follow russian leaders teach your betters abroad and their big breakthrough back home spotlight on start unsettling update here and. we've got the future covered. egypt.

welcome to crossfire thank you all about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution. you can say. ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt is there going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in the power of the media or invest treats living in tents in back to you square and everywhere i have power and confidence in the people but i would get the say something very important how matz was encouraged by is that you have to fight against facts. and. then you had and was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because of what happened that their colors big taters the capitalist pollers they play fair

i believe your solution that he at least social used to have a revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use colonizers of course and their allies like my part up and said so deeply what they are afraid of the real socialists through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brotherhoods religious groups sell a few union egypt we have. that came like that through saudi arabia and the u. s. so we have to be really aware of that fact ok connection lorenzo you are you are you are you are thinking why you are laughing go ahead you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to stick around for your mind so i said i'd like to see also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok

because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think we had lorenzo yellow let me link it to well first of all i mean really twisted sister say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups is just mind blowing because in your case one thing with the united states fears today if there's anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia. and i think with rula was talking about with hamas i think exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so say enormous concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states entering through fire so i think that's that's a first you say you should point to how do you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically you did notice is that the best organized political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is

a great example of that so on organized force which has a massive popular support like the brotherhood can take over and one of those who think the brotherhood will i'm going to say when i tell you this is an important this is one of the groups that are not organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what do you that's why i want to do this program he you see there's a fear that the and i'm not could just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because we're going to say she is very important you can get rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the car courtside of virus with the regime but the core of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know their gyptian people great know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes and you go to any mosque inside and everywhere in the south of egypt

if any is simple enough even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guide on how and how grand and how we should fight here and there then i got millions of votes let's be let's be clear about this where there are gender is already ruler of all i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is it is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with we see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same time this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way but you think about that and i wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from their anger i live in egypt all my life i was in but how do you square all of that pie i feel that people yes there are millions who went through that is where are not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood

few thousands they are organized but they are just through thousands they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they live with them they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. already got injured and they are not really. no one like us shown to you as a freeloader a woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the propaganda about. what we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow on three month's election you really think that they will not have that they will be that i can pin

they will not win a lot of seats in parliament are you really think that they will not anyway ocean. you didn't follow the revolution the last sort of relation in egypt we said there will be not elections there is a pressure now for the millions we have to put stop postpone the elections because if we have elections now or in november or september or even december the of course of the organized groups all organized groups not only of muslim brother but the orange political parties group of america we've come in but we are asking this is one of their very important demands of their evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the election still with changing the constitution with changes there the laws of political parties and all of the laws so that we give. to the young people to the new revolutionary men and women thought on going to rise and to

have their political parties and can enter the election ok reza i'm glad you are going to hold one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and it will be a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the answer go ahead so it's very difficult to see what it's going to bring was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals to save. but is as much of the liberals going again where did you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians go to the us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is where one of the communications so where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal that is very difficult to see having to be really very right now is trying to

balance the two forces the push for a good to get from islam is the poor they get from the liberal same trying to have at least the leaders talking about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has. to see the sharia should be distortion of legislation which is exactly what the course. of the last thirty years has said so no difference in that. sort of keep it at least the way it is if most elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think you're going to get a majority but a position of furtive percent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question about going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand but some of the fear mongers here in the west thinking nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to pushing for more should be up for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this

program is your god i was kind of our foreign policy that if you want to talk about domestic politics let's go ahead and i want to just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not look at kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and a very smart way she said we would talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the list than the military didn't shoot anybody on. a lot of the fault i am sorry i hate it clinton is not going to tell me what to do he added clinton no nobody's telling me yeah he's not. why don't we say that one should know what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the lanes try to reside in and now they're not a logical way where try and i mean this right i'm not saying that he looked i just listened to me because i couldn't write i don't care i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we know that look at the future of egypt i think

all power. i think you should really start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of that the more excluded they are something the more like the goal there was like three days but the moment they are included talk the word they will show the right i'm going to jump in here and we're going to war ends all around zone is easy yes yes this is the end of my life because before we had a very dogmatic point of view in politics how do you think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of it secular or religious or is it yes the energy goes on the right also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as remains a strong ideological organization there's no question we're going to push come to shove their going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have governing to some degree they're going to have to govern or when you become more pragmatic ben you are faced with the shoes on how to fix an economy which is completely

messed up at the moment then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a new destruction of israel and other things actually how do you interact with hamas will get us with turkey with the arab league it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows better i mean in a way we've been talking of the brotherhood as this super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never face the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its grassroots activities it has never really been confronted we've got decisions to me. and i think that's going to really change i'm going to create a lot of patience in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal friction staking place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks to my guest today in rome london and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are keep see you next time and remember cross-talk. the

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