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free credits nation free loans for free. range month free. free. free. download free broadcast live video for your media project for free media gogarty dot com. you can. follow me in welcome to cross dot com peter lavelle five months on what is the condition of the egyptian revolution as it lived up to expectations what does people's power mean there today and could the revolution be hijacked during the upcoming elections. you can. see.

crosstalk what's going on in egypt now i'm joined by rula jebreal in rome she's a journalist and author of miral in london we go to now el saadawi she's a writer and political activist and often referred to as the mother of the revolution and in zurich we crossed a little enzo but you know he's an academic and security expert who specializes in islam and political violence in europe and north america are you folks this is cross talk that means you can jump any time you want i very much encourage it through i'd like to go to you first in rome what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations is it going in the right direction. what it's really thought are used to say that it lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today as he hears but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom they did it in a mock prosy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is

is the guard that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see that even that tension between moslems and christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a pick me from their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no security in the country there is a religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that can times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are going and it will take us before seeing il sorry you're right it was very interesting story brown you were

a very good point i'd like to get another in london the military saying that you know they have to watch out for the security situation this is where to say that barak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. well. they were but he was a very clear. and he used security and stability that same language american. language british colonial language security spend nearly thirty they never speak about justice socially gosh there's already quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that you've trained people to me arms of people went through the streets with square since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak. but the body of betty june is still

there they are aimed at military in the government in the media in university and i don't mean who am i going to lorenzo on the point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime which is without its head in and this is really one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the big corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls huge swaths of the economy i mean it in the military in many ways it's nice to know revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways that the military yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power its hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military can slow down partially will change it's actually the liberals

who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so that islam is the products of the muslim brotherhood is the one who is pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because on some degree may ask for major sweeping changes immediately as they should be asked for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand this low down on certain things and that is problematic that i think speaks in a way of the defragmentation egypt's political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the only group despite its own problems its own program kornel fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rw i think it's very interesting you say gyptian and liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they do the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like i said

a real restart again i had. yes there are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before the muslim girl or the barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats say they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election aren't totally free but the regime had to give something and make a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did somehow they divided the power you control as mother muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the mind of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brother there where are very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they will take care a few what you give them back is your vote and that's what you know that. real is it that's not a bad view is it to me considering. it's not

a bad deal except that once they are in power they will go what hamas did in gaza they will do or the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choices what would be out of their government what what would we expect that would be there there are there are there agenda that there would be it's just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not organized listen if you've got the mohamed el baradei today or i nor all of these people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with time and what kind of foreign relations we might have the shuttle is sort of our desires our relations in the second half of the program and now what do you think about that i mean. the. brotherhood they're

prepared for paired for the selection here and nobody else seems to be prepared and they're afraid of lives. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brotherhood now because who supported the muslim brothers or said that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers you do ali i say george bush and bin ladden are twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and the word. quite attics the muslim brotherhood did not start their revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of cannot he started without the muslim brothers there was not a single islamic slogan or christian or religious it was

a very secular revolution from the beginning and when that revolution succeeded then the muslim rather dry and in the usual you do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of july the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against the demonstrations but the media and of people in egypt are against treating and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join in on terror so. we're going to you because it is the muslim brotherhood is a political factor on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of people now lorenzo go ahead. yes of course there is more of a lot of people i think you know the problem is. how you do that on a practical and i think the the army the supreme council of the armed forces also

is probably know a lot of people act. using of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five thirty percent qualified minority leader could be did the greatest party in the future interaction parliament how do you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in that they could have not been able to create the brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from all walks of life but anyway do not share these almost platform views and run against them and this is where i think the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with your position views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is historically false i think the big dilemma bear in washington now is out there either silva refusing to even

talk to the brotherhood which was something you and i call critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how you deal with them and the position of the clinton is taking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to everybody you anybody with does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach where there are low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him and that's sort of a pragmatic approach where you have to look at is cool it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to regroup and what do you think about that i mean you may now like him but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy a car that i think we can amass it's become a disaster

a strace until today we're seeing that and credible results of that the worst of the worst what you do is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is with the jordanian regime did they include ok we're going to join me here let me go to we're sure great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our team. six strategists.

live. you can see. live. live. welcome back to cross talk about remind you we're talking about egypt's revolution . live the can't sleep live. ok now i do go back to you in london let's go to prevail in egypt is

a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values. yes i have confidence in their power of the millions who are in the streets living in tents in the square and everywhere i have confidence in the people but i would like to say something very important how mass was encouraged by israel to fight against fact and then led and was encouraged by us and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because of what happened there parlors the dictators the capitalist powers they play fair and religious revolution then early socialist revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent who will use colonizers of course and their allies

like mubarak and said that so they put what they are afraid of the real socialist through of their millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups tell a few union egypt well we have sent a few that can be like that through saudi arabia and the us so we have to really aware of the fact that connection lorenzo you are you are you are you are you can live your life again you want to make a commentary and really just to go inside light or seriously curatorial mind so i said i'd like to say also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values are ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think we had lorenzo yellow let me link through but first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's

just mind blowing because it is one thing that the united states fears today is anything islam is still i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic full. and i think with the rule i was talking about with hamas and get exactly explains it i think you are right rightly so say enormous concerns about islamic groups of all shapes but in the united states and probably too far so i think that's about so far as you said you should point out you are going to the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these are huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically you did notice the best organized political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force but it has a massive popular support that like the brotherhood can take over and not one of those that think the brotherhood will i mean this is a letter and tell you this is important this is one of the groups who are not

organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and rule what do you that's why i want to do this program you see there's a fear that the and i'm not going to sort of focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because we're going to say she is very important you can get rid of the head the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the power of course size of power for the regime but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language but tell us language is the one that will get them a lot of bolts and you go to any mosque inside in everywhere in the south of egypt is any simple in man even without the background are not without education he will start saying something our guide on how and have when and how we should fight here and there they love got millions of god let's be let's be clear about their agenda

is already ruler of all i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with her we see that with a mouse i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same to this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way when you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from there on. i live in egypt all my life i was in fact that is where i i feel that people yes the millions who went through that is where i am not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood a few thousands they are organized but they are just to sell them they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because they you with them

they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and they are not you know one mind yes chimpy you as a free liberal woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not a proper ganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there will be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that it will be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament do you really think that they like their way ocean . it you didn't follow that evolution the last three lucian in egypt we said there will be no elections there is a pressure now for not millions we have to post but postponed the elections because

if we have elections now or in november or september or even december there of course the organized groups the board or denies groups not the only of muslim brother but the political parties brought by or will come in but we are asking this is one of their very important demands of that evolution of the second revolution on a july postponing the election still with changing the constitution with changing their laws of political parties and all of that was so that we gave. to the young people into the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and content their election ok the result of the lines are going to chante i think you know you spoke one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and will it be

a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example the answer go ahead it's very difficult to see much more you see as i was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to say that that is. not a very good you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is one of the true indications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal those very difficult to see i think the very right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a bit to get from these. and the poor bigot from the liberals saying trying to have at least the leaders talk is about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic imprint the same to the sharia should be

distortion of legislation which is exactly what the constitution of the last for thier says said so no difference invent the. sort of keep it at least the way it is if the actions of brotherhood were to acquire a position of more influence i don't think we're going to get a majority but a position of thirty percent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question of they're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand with some of the fewer mongers here in the west think of nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more show you're for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program that's your go ahead i was going to write about foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics states but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not the kind of relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and

a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody going to try to shoot a lot of the fault i am sorry i hate any clinton is not going to tell me what i'm going to do he added clinton is that i don't know how god is telling yet what he's not but why don't we say that one hundred but no what i would like to see that egypt can do when you show no lane try to resign and ideological way where trying i mean it's right things rather eat the eggs just listen to me because i think on the right here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should present as we know that look at the future of egypt i think all power not united nations i think you and three. please part talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the motorways the well that one click stream but the longer they are

included a duck was sort of right i'm going to jump in here and we're going to hands all around so you see is the yes yes this the end of my life you can see there before we had a very dogmatic point of view in politics how do you think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular religious yeah the energy goes in the right also i can sort of brotherhood as much as remains a strong ideological organisation there's no question about push come to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is where you are in your position you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have the governing to some degree they're going to have to govern and then you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment that then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do destruction of israel another thing is actually how do you interact with hamas we've got us we have turkey we have the arab league but it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean you

know way we've been talking up the brotherhood of these super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never faced the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities it's grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think there's going to really change i'm going to create a lot of pain in the brotherhood which to some degree we've already seen we have some internal frictions taking place within the group so the brotherhood itself has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be better ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks and i guess today in rome london and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here archy see you next time and remember prostitute. you. steve.

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