encourage it to go to you first what is the condition of the revolution now is it lived up to expectations or is it going in the right direction what it's really too early to say that it's lived up to expectations because if the first expectation was that mubarak stepped down yes he did is he in trial today yes he here is but is that enough for the people that lives in egypt every day of liberty freedom dignity democracy i think we're far away from that. that the behavior of the military is the part that we need to watch out very closely because what they're doing is they are giving a long leash to the people saying yes we will do it not today tomorrow but the question is they still holding power yes they are and they want to keep it for a long time and what do you see even the tension between moslems and christian cops and all of that it's just i think it's a big need for their part to say listen we have to stay in power there is no

security in the country there is religious tension and we have to keep the power we have i think one sign that was positive lately that they delayed the election so that that give times to the groups that were not prepared not ready to prepare themselves for the next elections it's very interesting that you are now and it will take us before seeing it sorry you're in front of a very interesting story ground you're not very good point i'd like to get into. in london the military saying that you know they have to watch out for the security situation this is what to say that's what mubarak told the whole world why he had to stay in power for so long for security reasons. why. they will but i could dream was that very corner and he used security and stability that same language american. language british colonial language security

stability they never speak about justice socially dresch says already quality of independence of egypt so you know we have to be very very aware and i have really proud now that the egyptian people to me and of people who went to the streets to the here's with squids since twenty five january and of course we got three of mubarak the head of the energy but the body of that he is still there they are in the military in the government in the media in your universe you know i mean who am i going to learn and so on the point here i mean it's still the mubarak regime it just without its head and this is willy one of the reasons why i wanted to do this program here is because we can we actually even use the term revolution yet because the the the the the corpus of that regime is still very active the military has amazing privileges controls huge swaths of the economy i mean in many

many ways it's news been no revolution whatsoever and say to some degree we do still have a continuation of the past i think what is very surprising you know ways that the military yes of course is trying to maintain its power its economic power its hold on egypt there's no question about it but one of the forces that paradoxically is asking the military to slow down partially with change it's actually the liberals who started the revolution because as the ruler was saying they have not been able to organize themselves so the islamists products achille the muslim brotherhood is the one of the pushing for elections as soon as possible. while the liberals are the ones doing down the process. which is a paradox because on some degree they ask for major sweeping changes immediately as they should be asked for prosecution of the individual selling to the regime but on the other hand baseload down on certain things and that is problematic bad i think speaks in a way the defragmentation. political class and the fact that the brotherhood is the

only group despite its own problems its own from internal fragmentation but has been able to create sort of a bloc and the other groups have not been able to do so ok rule i think it's very interesting you say liberals are afraid of the people said differently because they know what they're doing the muslim brotherhood is out there and i want to talk about that later in the program but we can talk about it now they're very well organized and they're getting prepared for the like it's got a real rough first time going i had. yes yes they are very well organized they've been working since so many years let's remember one fact not this election not the parliament the last election the one before. muslim brother the barak brothers they want eighty seats in the parliament eighty out of three hundred something seats say they want eighty seats in a country that we know that the election where and totally free but the regime had to give some playing and make

a deal with the muslim brother and i think they did some how they divided the power you control as mother and muslim brothers social issues so they are in charge of many things if you go to the universities if you go inside of the mind of the hospitals health care these issues muslim brothers there where very well organized socially if you go to the mosque and you are a poor person they would take care of you what you give them back is your vote and that's what you know that i don't. badger you is it that's not a bad deal is it i mean considering the exam it is. it's not that bad deal except that once they are in power they will do what hamas did in gaza they will do what the iranian regime did so in terms of freedom let's be honest about it in terms of liberties freedom in terms of women freedom and choice is what i want to be out of their government what what we do expect that would be there there are there are there agenda there would be it just more lack of freedom and harassing people more and more of our civil liberties the liberals who are not scared but they are not

organized listen if you talk to one hundred el baradei today or i mean nor are these people they will simply tell you we need more time to organize for the next election and to show people our agenda and we how we can improve their lives slowly slowly with i am and what kind of foreign relation we might have ok let's talk about which side of relations in the second half of the program now and what do you think about that i mean the the. some brotherhood very prepared prepared for the selection here and nobody else seems to be prepared they're afraid of lives. i would like to say we cannot separate the power of the muslim brothers now because who supported the muslim brothers said that. the united states now the united states is negotiating with the muslim brothers usually i say george bush and bin ladden are twins so we cannot discuss the muslim brothers or the

egyptian revolution in isolation from their superpowers and the word. point attacks the muslim brotherhood did not start the revolution the muslim brothers are not the majority in egypt they are the minority that evolution under twenty five of january started without the muslim brothers there was not the same islamic slogan or christian or religious it was a very secular revolution from the beginning when that evolution succeeded then the muslim brother joined by in the usually do that also in just a few days ago on the it's of july with the second revolution the muslim brotherhood did not share and they were even against it and today they are against the demonstrations but the medians of people in egypt are demonstrating

and so the muslim brothers have no choice so they join. we're going to you i say this is the muslim brotherhood is a political fact on the ground i mean how do you deal with it ok it is popular with a lot of heat now lorenzo go ahead. of course there's the issue of all as usual i think you know the problem is. how you deal with it on a practical level i think the the our the the supreme council of the armed forces also as i probably know a lot of people. years ago of striking a deal with the brotherhood which to some degree is true because at the end of the day the brotherhood is at this point in time the only force they can reasonably acquire a twenty five thirty percent of qualified minority who believe them to be did the greatest party and they know the future egyptian parliament how do you deal with the liberals i think that is where the problem lays in the thank you they have not been able to create to untie brotherhood the coalition where you have forces from

all walks of life but anyways do not share these lowest platform and views and run against them and this is where the problem internally niji in egypt lies now going back to what your guest was talking about in terms of the international perspective an american perspective i would disagree with their position but views the united states as having ever supported the muslim brotherhood i think that is it starkly false i think the big dilemma of air in washington now is after it yourself and refusing to even talk to the brotherhood which was to some degree and i feel critical and not very pragmatic position i think we are in a position now where the united states acknowledges that the brotherhood is a force on the ground that is going to play a role in the future egyptian government how you deal with them and the position a bit that clinton is taking right now it's relatively sound one we talk to everybody who anybody with does not support violence and we have this wait and see approach for our low level meetings. because we cannot we can no longer ignore him

and that's sort of a pragmatic approach where the u.s. can look at it it's going it's going to take a pragmatic approach before we're going to break through what do you think about that i mean you may not like him but you have to deal with them yeah. absolutely absolutely and actually the fact let's learn from the lesson of the history let's learn from what happened two thousand and six when hamas won the election in the occupied territories in gaza they won the election i immediately the world said oh no we don't want to deal with them we have to buy it called them and it became a mass it's become a disaster a situation still today we're seeing that i'm credible results of that the worst of the worst what do you do it is what that actually the the smartest way to deal of them is what they're about jordanian regime did they included in the going to join me here we don't wish very great and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt stay with our kids.

if you're followed up on my bill. are sort of a throwback and archaic part of. it goes back to a time when people would write out of their forces in the wild west and pick up these huge debts and putting them into the sheriff for prosecution i don't think what company may well you know. when they go out there. and they have to hope that nothing bad. will it. but we're chasing killers and you gotta keep that in mind others the two million dollar bill please the rest. were not superheroes you can be killed too you know if they shoot me in the head i'm going to die. and. once you've had

never go back to hide anything else. will come to the what makes a big splash in the world of hi-tech business what turns it vs science into i ching products they don't understand oh he's he's got people rushing to beaters to e.g. bitters and broaden their big breakthrough. spotlight on story on technology update here on. we've got the future covered. welcome back across town about to mind you were talking about egypt's revolution.

ok now i want to go back to you in london what's going to prevail in egypt there's a going to be the rule of the majority or democratic values yes i have confidence in their power of the media in their streets living in tents in the you square and everywhere i have confidence in the people but i would get the say something very important how mass was encouraged by is there and the fight against fat. and then ben ladden was encouraged by u s and muslim brotherhood were encouraged by the government of egypt we cannot separate because what happened that the followers the dictators the capitalist pollers they play fair at really just sort of lucian that he and the socialist to have a revolution for equality and social justice because if egypt is independent

who will use connives or of course and then allies like mubarak and said that so they put it what they are afraid of that really socialist through of the millions and that's why they encourage some high mass muslim brothers religious groups sell a few you need you know we have a few that came like that through saudia arabia and the u.s. so we have to be really aware of that fact ok i want that connection lorenzo you were you were you were you were thinking why you're laughing and you want to make a comment there because i'm really just a guy with this i'd like to steer secure a tory mindset and i said i'd like to also stick with my question here the rule of the majority and democratic values ok because everyone can have a different point of view but it's an important question i think go ahead lorenzo yeah let me. first of all i mean really to this is to say that the united states supports groups like hamas the brotherhood or salafi groups it's just mind blowing

because i mean there is one thing with the united states fears today if there's anything islam is i think you can accuse him of the opposite of having sort of an islamic phobia. and i think what the rule i was talking about with hamas i think it exactly explains it i think you are right rightly sort of norma's concerns about islamist groups of all shapes but even the united states and treasury to far so i think that's a that's a first you said you should be pointed in how do you know the majority we really don't know what the majority is i mean yes we have maybe a million people in tahrir square but each of these. huge countries but million people really the majority i mean we've seen historically bad notices the best organized political forces are the one to take over and as much as historical comparisons are not always the right thing to do iran is a great example of that so an organized force but it has a massive popular support that like the brotherhood can take over and one of those i think the brotherhood will i'm going to say let me tell you. this is one of the groups that are not organised one of the issues of this program is hijacking and

rule what it will you that's why i want to do this program you see there's a fear that they and i'm not going to just focus on the brothers only but other groups that could hijack this because organization is very important you can get rid of the head the the snake's head but you know the rest of the snake you have to deal with it it's a long process. absolutely it's a long process listen i worked in egypt as an anchor woman i had the t.v. show and i stayed there in two thousand and eight and i saw the far fought side of power for the regime but the part of the muslim brothers they were well organized they have they know the ground very well they know they gyptian people they know how to speak their language populist language is the one that will get them a lot of votes and you go to any mosque inside in everywhere in the south of egypt and if any simple in mom even without the background or the education he will start saying something our guardian how and have when and how we should fight here and there they want got millions of votes let's be let's be clear about this we're

going there are gender is already rollerball i want to go back you know i want to go back to well i mean one of the things i think is very interesting here is that is the west going to decide who votes the right way and the wrong way because we see that with we see that with hamas i'm not saying you should like or dislike these groups but i mean at the same that this is outside interference you know you have to vote the right way what do you think about that now and wonder what they think is everybody is speaking from there on. i live in egypt all my life i was in that how do you square that i i feel the people yes the millions who went to that is square are not the eighty five million in egypt the muslim brotherhood few thousands they are organized but they are just through cell that they are not even one million so the problem is how we look to the problem i live in egypt so i know their situation i feel i have confidence in the people because i live with them

they are not with the muslim brotherhood has. got injured and they are not i know our mind us chained to you as a free liberally woman my question to you and let's be honest about it here it's not the proper ganda about. we all love egypt we all support the revolution we are pro this revolution it's the best thing that ever happened to the arab world and to all of us as women as liberal as everybody that believes in democracy ok but my question you know how powerful they are if there would be tomorrow or in three months election you really think that they will not have that they will be that they will not win a lot of seats in the parliament you really think that they were not anyway ocean. you didn't follow that evolution the last sort of lucian in egypt we said there will be no elections there is a pressure now form the millions we have to push stop postpone the elections

because if we have elections now already in november or sit down there or even december the of course the organized groups all the organized groups not only the muslim writers brother but the oil political parties problem but it will come but we are asking this is one of them then important demand of that evolution of the second revolution on july postponing the elections with changing the constitution with changing their the roles of political parties and all of that rose so that we give time to the young people into the new revolutionary men and women to organize and to have their political parties and can enter the election ok reza i'm going. to go to you spoke one of the interesting things is that you know this constitutional reform is out there and will it be

a secular state will it be more islamic i mean or how do you balance the both will egypt have its own unique experience because people look to turkey for example or go ahead it's very difficult to see much of what you said was a vote in the egyptian people voted back in the referendum a few months ago for having the elections in the fall i mean as much as the liberals said it pains me to save it but as much as the liberals are not paying that you know when seventy seven percent of egyptians voted for the us as the muslim brotherhood was asking them to vote so again if we have a few empirical ways to gauge where the people stand unfortunately that is one of the few indications where is egypt going to go more secular more liberal very very difficult to say i think the military right now is trying to balance the two forces the push for a bit to get from the. and the poor they get from the liberals same trying to have at least the leaders talk is about some guidelines for what the constitution should look like and of course it has an islamic aim praying to save the sharia should be

the source of legislation which is exactly what the constitution of the last thirty years has said so no difference in bed to. the sort of keep it at least the way it is if the elections the brotherhood where to acquire a position of more influence i don't think you're going to get a majority but opposition a furtive percent something around the bed number we've alliances i think there's no question of they're going to be pushing for more islamic values nothing to do stand with some of the fear mongers here in the west think nothing like taliban style afghanistan but no question we're going to be pushing for more shadier for more extremely conservative values and it's troubling for christians for women and so on and so for one of the things we haven't really talked about on this program and that's where you'll go ahead i was going to kind of our foreign policy but if you want to talk about domestic politics but i want just yeah i would like to say something that's why it's so important not to cut down a relationship with these groups that's what's so important that's why hillary clinton actually and

a very smart way she said we will talk to everybody the more you talk to these people the more leverage you have on top of the listen the military didn't shoot anybody on that issue and to a lot of people i am sorry i hated clinton is not going to tell me what i'm going to do he had it came to me that i know nobody is telling me yeah what he's not the one i would say that i should what no what i would like to say that the egyptian revolution the land try to resign and not in an ideological way where trying i mean it's right that they're not saying president elect and just listen to me because i could write a prime i think here i mean we're not talking out of ideology we should resent as we know that the future of egypt i think all power are not united nations i think you and should you read. please start talking with a muslim brother and have some leverage on top of them the more excluded they are something the more with the goal that one remains but the longer they are and will

if it don't get over they will show the right i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go and so lorenzo yes he is yes this is the end of my life before we had a very dogmatic point of view on politics i do think there's a lot more pragmatism now going on in egyptian politics i mean irrespective of its secular or religious that is a yes the energy goes in the right and also when it comes to the brotherhood as much as remains a strong ideological organization there's no question but push come to shove they're going to be more pragmatic because one thing is when you are in the opposition you can have all these dogmatic positions but once they have to govern to some degree they're going to have to govern then you become more pragmatic then you are faced with issues on how to fix an economy which is completely messed up at the moment that then you have to deal with foreign policy issues on a more pragmatic level one thing is to call for a do the destruction of israel another thing is actually how do you interact with hamas with the u.s. with turkey with the arab league but it's a completely different scenario and i think the brotherhood knows bad i mean in

a way we've been talking of the brotherhood as this super powerful group but it has its problems and it is never faced the responsibility of governing for actually doing something aside from its activities it's grassroots activities it has never really been confronted with tough decisions to make and i think that's going to really change i'm going to create a lot of tension in the brotherhood which to some degree we're already seeing with some internal friction stake in place within the group so the brotherhood self has to become more pragmatic and the reality will force them to be that ok we'll see how the situation changes as the election approaches many thanks to my guest today in rome london and in zurich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

in india. the move to joint the hotel rooms. the gateway to

the grand imperial truly. you can. see don't need to go and. read this in the candle was toto as a retreat. thousands of protesters remain on the streets of madrid furious and spain's huge unemployment rate in the government's faltering attempts to deal with a financial crisis. across the atlantic the clock is ticking over a potential u.s. default with the white house and congress and deadlock over how to raise the fourteen trillion dollars debt ceiling. and a vigil for the victims norway remembers those lost in friday's deadly attacks this is the man who confessed to the killings claims he's only a small part of an extremist network.

très are good to have you with us here on r t our top story thousands of protesters have set up camp in madrid central square angry at the crippling recession and mass unemployment that's gripped the country they know their country is deep in trouble but they see it but they see but see their future being decided by brussels and the i.m.f. instead of being able to deal with the mess themselves. has more. of the cash in spain is going mainly down the drain at least that's the opinion of thousands of people who rallied across the country. in the footsteps of that american countries . mexico the government it's controlled by the rupee. bank and after w t o they don't care about the people. so the people decided it's time to voice their concerns loud and clear before the lose more than just the shirt off their back

spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in the eurozone so while the european leaders have been occasionally meeting in comfortable quarters to talk about the future of the hero and the european union itself people in the country have been demonstrating on an almost weekly basis demanding the government shape up stop talking and do something about the situation this is not just about higher wages and better pension plans with more than forty percent of young people in spain unemployed simply getting a job is a priority for those gathered in the trades central square the big part of the responsibility is from the cover. because the government first of all. not to create the conditions at the beginning of the crisis to fight against the crisis it reacts very late. and on the other hand once.