welcome back let's take a look at other headlines now herriot america's biggest creditor china rushes out of washington pushing the global economy at risk of not reaching agreement to keep its debt in check. colons prepares to present its own perspective on what caused the plane of an eight president kaczynski to crash in western russia last week. libyan rebels were on their command gunned down hours after his family's alleged

ties cut the bank his machine to question. under nato promise is extra troops for the border that's been said the cost of going down and outbreaks of the controversial export back. well people of el instead of a round of debates on cross talk now with a look at the role of jesus christ in a free market economy where jesus jeans christian rock and even jesus pills are available that's next to nothing. wealthy british science. markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy because a report on r.t. . can.

flow in welcome to cross town computable is the lord mead marketing some are selling christian rock jesus jeans and even jesus kills is this the right way to promote christianity in the twenty first century or is it a new profitable nice for those who have nothing to do with face. kicking to. discuss christian marketing i'm joined by you and getting in london he is director of marketing and communications at the u.n. getting marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time you want if i can go to you fellow first. christianity is

a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. well peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and prayed it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is published and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together the message and the person so that the message doesn't become simply an

abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean do you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and the things that i will mention on this program doesn't seem to have much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there christian marketing is a huge business and lots of people are making money at it. whether or not it's immoral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such. but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel

than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me you know in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok unifying you in london i mean i think in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ first first in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment but how do you feel about that. that's not a title i would use ok but just. i think i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talk about publishing the gospel. well let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message and the person as all are to be honest as been established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the bio bible

presents him the bubble presents him as the lord we must tell that to the world about his intimate being the only savior for the world for mankind the bubble present him as the healer as the great physician but present him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in marketing of jesus christ is presented in jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a television literature stand in the street corner talking to people at work at the office or anywhere else communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way that buy a book for the sensitive yes but also i mean it puts be fair it's a business to i mean you have to have a business model and i am not casting any aspersions on your work whatsoever but you know in failing this message and in the the ideas associated with this person

at the center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes and the and of course the difference of the people in the world they're the genuine genuine christians who want to present and from what you just christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few will really well there's many others as we know they want you to buy their products because their want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but it is to profit and that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you want to jump in there go right ahead. and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much that the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use so that the institution doesn't go bankrupt but a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but

your bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line that begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he's the bottom line not the money ok film you know that's an interesting thing that you go ahead you're going to go ahead but it seems to be that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold in expression in the west will change radical you and go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just been using again the word be in business i do not see the church as a business of course some do under novel but if you look at the book of acts if you

look at the church all with all started and what they're taught or their priests or their behavior their conduct themselves as the body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's less clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets cash flow for cars and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they're all there themselves in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so it means go without all the words yourself and preach the gospel how we organize ourselves to do that we communicate the message is all very key but for me it's not business both you gentlemen if you were talking about and i agree with you i mean you st you were all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealised way we all know that that's not how it's being done and i mean look at these televangelists and i go through all of the names of the last two

decades and united states a disgrace themselves and really hurt. the faith of many people that they were preaching to believe they would be treated people like customers now disbelievers and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very good lot of people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean it's not about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. the issue that you're raising is the issue of the far scarse a poor misunderstanding christianity and promoting that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was very alive and well in the new testament church and you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these are bands of us and we send them out to save souls that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament

christians and jews at that time were fleeing the destruction of rome and as they fled if they fled out and as they fled they landed in various kinds of places and people said what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vangelis that was a vandalism on the move that was god planning that evangelism and indeed these need if you like there are any power point presentations right. now they're doing that and also you know there's a really available you know we really i would like to get my point ok you can go ahead you want to comment i understand great yeah yeah before the persecution was caused because to flee to different parts in so doing they of course spread the gospel but before that they were actually go and i'm talking to people there were there were times when we just read it very clear in the early part of the book of

acts where they would go from house to house and breaking of bread and a prayers and the church is growing they will go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believer is to do that whether or not there is persecution. well if you want to go and jump in there you're right up but i'm going to point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that's all true documented in the media interest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation and motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of soul when he that when if a soul is why isn't the soul of a person's precious and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings million more money and more fame they go on television because on. newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the correct way to go. if you think you think that they're supporting. it

what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you to it it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean thing that i just can't believe these are people of faith this is a phone number on the bottom all of the time i mean send this money and this money . one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time. because there is such a poor restoration of denominations and perspectives and this and that and the other and to sort it out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to be to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to a person thinks that they know already by gentleness and what god is about let me

show you right now we're going to. give you a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus states that are going. to take a. stand. and. it's going to. seem. to. see. if he. if he. he. took it whatever.

the streets to see some of the stones from the field listen to the soviet files. it's. just so. full. of. take a seat. welcome back rostock i hear a little tree mind you were talking about christianity in the twenty first century . and a slim. but before let's see what religion

means to russians. everything post sale that is what our commercialized culture accepts the debate clear when it comes to marketing the message of jesus quotes many claiming the value is faith and their religion itself but this isn't met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all citizens what religion means to them thirty that percent of the respondents consider it as national tradition the faith of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it can be part a world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they link to god with the important role religion has in society walking christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be just a plant. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program

we're talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what where do you draw the line in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills etc etc i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that there are young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be with the times to be able to be. deal with majority but where do you draw the line. i think it was caught. retelling the gospel is to tell it also in the language without importing the value and that's often a very hard line to draw. we do always run the risk of the driving present things are cutting their actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of try. marketing ploys because marketing is always trying

to scratch where people are reaching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean a lot of the people around me where they're reaching what they want is more money a better sex lies a more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know the main so think the challenge is that. these techniques to make the gospel clear rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to what people want it's very interesting to find philip if i can go to you i mean again in researching this program i was really astounded and i must admit even disgusted in how. how to build a christian business and and i really interchangeably using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and then leave the exactly to a consumer has been. that's been very much a part of the church a growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth

that started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual growth. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you and you and how do you deal with that it. is that an issue that you consider. well we'll talk about marketing and thirteen weeks of marketing ploys and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid out in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world

and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind in some of the whole do then do that how do they communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy is their own individual lives that's what matters we ought to represent jesus christ as he is so we talk about god as a god of love we must therefore show love you know we're walking the walk talk of the people we talk about god is peace with marshall peace you know we interact with people and what we do we must have a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is righteous god is holy holiness and you know but you know it is a market is that exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we've had these people talk about a christian lifestyle and that he actually cost a lot of money and again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy

you're going to have a lot of money out there i got to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states but i mean your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had a go to the jesus disco and you know in all of this and i mean even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in or in a small town you know i mean it's very impressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. i found out a title at all sort of a very seriously i'm afraid i think what the other brothers are sighing right you know in terms of the integrity of trying to present the goal of good marketing i think should be to make their message clear not to make it more more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean we're here yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the

market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different the purchase in christianity is that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are to appeal to him he's the customer he's by the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they want we need to the lord and what he wants in you want to jump in there i mean i mean they again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even gel calls come over from the united states to russia to say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in

a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much perspective i mean some of the things that people wear like i said jesus jeans for example and i would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again a is it's it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment personal purposes for money. for its longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is just diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest. i will buy a jeans but you put jesus on it is like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in their product that should not be part of the gospels message while unfortunate people are in the business if you like of the church and of christianity for

a variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to see that's the general impression because we see it through the media these tell you television evangelists and so on and we open in newspapers or hear on radio or t.v. of these things happen in i almost think that's how that how it is generally in the church but it's not just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrated as holy as they can and live for jesus and others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you tell if you would you tell your parishioners when you say when we see these like televangelists and in one night you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that should let you get better let them do what they wanted to do in a very relativistic way that they were shared. how do you deal with that i think i think our persians are pretty savvy actually this particular issue but i do think

it's our duty to crack i'm right about this i mean as i said before the issue is trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without improving the values of the day and i think all of us are very wary rightly so. allowing the valleys of the day to take over but the other dangers are equally real that we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is where i can see you know with young people i must in my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people where in the names they hear as on the clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy you should be your hero the sort of person you were spying for to be like that like and hence to have him on your clothing to it makes sense at that level i mean i'm not sure the micro-level a well thought out it's not the sort of thing we do over here but i can see the point of trying to be relevant at that level it's a fine line i think it points. a fine line in your mind with the issues already had

already here. david david said talked about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around as i think we need to make the world girls the right of guys were bad choices about which is the is is is the stake you know and i understand that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we can begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or to really the desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be and i've been writing about this for probably twenty years and it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't know but empower to churches doesn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond

bringing some sort of sin and together although at some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know to give you the last word. well i just want to clarify something about the world market and as a market here when i talk to customers clients and they help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know what i'm afraid i'm going to have big jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen we've come to the end of the program here many thanks and i guess to be in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember our stockings. can.

people.