it's all gone sour most businesses are in the americas because congress and china lashes out of washington for good in the global economy at risk by not reaching agreements to keep its debts and checks. on will slow banks investigation concludes the made response from the scene of the presidential plane crash in western russia in the eyes of the polish crew but that a russian air traffic controllers will also policies of late. libyan rebels more of

a come on the gun sound i was all to his family's alleged ties to the donkeys regime were called into question. now naysay promises extra chips for the border between serbia and calls are following a volley of outbreaks save a controversial export found. right now is another round of his debates on a cross talk with a look at the role of jesus christ in a free market economy where jesus jeans christian wrong even jesus pills are available that's next here on our city. the british science. markets finance scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on our t.v.

. can. flow in welcome to crosstalk computable biz the lord need marketing some are selling christian rock jesus jeans and even jesus pills is this the right way to promote christianity in the twenty first century or is it a new profitable nice for those who have nothing to do with face. you can. still. discuss christian marketing i'm joined by you and getting in london he is director of marketing and communications at the un getting marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time

you want if i can go to you philip first. christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. oh well peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and prayed it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is publish and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together a message and a person so that the message doesn't become simply an abstract idea devoid of

person ok but i mean do you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and the things that i will mention on this program i believe this incident had much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there a christian marketing is a huge business lots of people are making money at it. then whether or not it's immoral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such. but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want to it and there's more to the

gossip war than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me ok you know if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok you know if i knew you in london i mean in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ first first in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment well how do you feel about that. that's not the capital i would use ok but there's a thing i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talk about publishing the gospel. well let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message and the person as all are to be honest as been established but what we're doing is

presenting jesus in the way that the bio bible presents him that other presents him as good lord we must tell that to the present him as being the only savior for the world for mankind the bible present him as the healer as the great physician resent him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in marketing of jesus christ is presented in jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a television literature stand in the street corner talking to people at work at the office or anywhere else communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way the bible presents him yes but also i mean it but speed fair it's a business through i mean you have to have a business model and i am not casting any aspersions on your work whatsoever but you know in filming this message and in the the ideas associated with this person

at the center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes on the front line of course the difference of the people in the world are the genuine genuine christians who want to present them from what do you just price correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few already but there's many others as we know they want to buy their products because they want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but it is to profit that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you want to jump in there go right ahead. here it's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use or the institution doesn't go bankrupt but a better model might be

a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money with your bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line that begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in the business so we need to keep jesus christ after core that he's the bottom line and not the money ok phil you know that's an interesting thing that you say ok go ahead go ahead go ahead but it seems to be that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold in expression in the west would change radical you would go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just been using again the word being business i do not see the church as a business of course some do on the novel but if you look at the book of acts if

you look at the church how it all started and what they thought of their priests or their behavior their conduct themselves as a body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's less clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets cash flow for cars and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they all there is and serve in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so it means go and out all the words you said and preach the gospel how we organize ourselves to do that we communicate the message is all very key but to me it's not business because both you gentlemen if you were talking about and i agree with you i mean you speak you were all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealized way we all know that that's not how it's being done and i mean look at these televangelists when i go through all of the names of the last two decades

and united states a disgrace themselves and really hurt. the faith of many people that they were preaching to believe they would be treated people like customers now disbelievers and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very black people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean let's talk about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. who are the real issue that you're raising is is the issue of the far scarse or misunderstanding christianity and encouraging that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was very alive and well in the new testament churches you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think that well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these evangelists and we send them out to save souls

that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews of that time were fleeing the destruction of room and as they fled they fled out and as they fled they they landed in various kinds of places and people said what happened here what was going on they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vangelis that was a vandalism on the move that was god planning that evangelism and indeed these new media like there are any power point presentations right. now they're doing they're also you know there's a really available you know where you're really i would like to get my point ok you can go ahead you under a comment i understand great yeah yeah before the persecution which caused christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of course spread the gospel but before that they were actually going out and talking to people there were there

were times when we just read it very clearly early part of the book about some of the we're going from house to house and breaking of bread in a prayers and the church is growing to go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believer is to do that whether or not there is persecution. well if you want to go and jump in there you're right about. the point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that that's all true highly documented in the media interest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation the motivation might not be as the scripture says in terms of saul when he that when a soul is why isn't the soul of a person freshest and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings mean a more money and more fame they go on television to get on in newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the

correct way to go. i want you if you think you think that there have been supportive of him saying listen. if that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you to it it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean thing that i just can't believe these are people who say the number on the bottom all of the time i mean send this moneys and this money. one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time. because there is such a program for a few good nominations and perspectives and this and that and the other and to sort it out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to

a person thinks that they know already said what god is about let me just say right here right now we're going. to do a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state. it's ok to say you it's. it's an. it's. the evening. news it's just so. it's just so.

it's. six weeks ago. for the. six of the biggest issues get human voice ceased to face with the news makers. exit q six and it's. welcome back ross cock i'm curious about tree mind you were talking about christianity in the twenty first century. economy. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything post sale that is

what our commercialized culture accepts but debates fleer when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claiming devalues pay them their religion itself but this isn't met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all citizens what religion means to them thirty nine percent of the respondents consider it as a national tradition the think of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it to be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they a link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we're talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is

spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what where do you draw the line in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills eccentrics cetera i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that there are young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be up with the times to be able to be. deal with maturity but where do you draw the line. i think it was carved. retelling the gospel is to tell it also in the language of the day without importing the values and that's often a very hard line to draw. we do always run the risk of why we present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is

always trying to scratch where people are reaching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean a lot of people are maybe they're reaching what they want is more money a better sex life the more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them many other things you're not a man so think the challenge is the. place that makes the night the gospel clear rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to the people want it's very interesting if i can feel it if i can go to you i mean again in researching this program i was really astounded and i must admit even disgusted in how. how to build a christian business and and really entertaining people using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and being lead exactly to a consumer. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth that started some twenty years ago or more one of the

things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gospel. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you and how do you do without it. is that an issue that you consider. well we talk about markets and mark and techniques and marketing ploys and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid out in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind that in terms whole do

we then do that how do we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy because they were all in individual lives that's what much as a we ought to represent jesus christ as it is so we're talking about god as a god of love we must therefore show love you know walking the walk talk in people we talk about god is peace peace you know we interact with people and what we do with a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is righteous god is holy you must demonstrate holiness in the law you know be on you know if. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we've had the people talk about a christian lifestyle and and he actually cast a lot of money in here again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy you're going to have a lot of money out there if i go to you david in sydney i mean you know for

thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states but i mean your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had to go to the jesus this disco era and all of this and i mean even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a in a small town you know i mean it's very impressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. yeah i find it hard to type very seriously i think. for clues on a present the goal of good marketing i think should be to make. not to make more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean when you can do it because yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the current marketing model is the most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you

look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different the purchase in christianity is that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are to appeal to him he's the customer he's by the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that and not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they want we need to appeal to the lord and what he wants you when you want to jump in there i mean because they say again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening in how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even gel clothes come over from the united states to russia to say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much perspective i

mean some of the things that people wear like a secular jesus jeans for example that would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again a is it's a it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment personal purposes for money. for its longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is this diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest. i would buy a jeans but you put jesus on it it's like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in that product that should not be part of the gospels message but unfortunately people are in the business if you like off the church and of christianity for variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to see that's the general

impression because we see through the media these two live television evangelists and so on and we open the newspapers or hear on radio or t.v. of these things happen in our might think oh that's how it is generally in the church but it's not that's just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrating as holy as they can and live for jesus as. others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you tell if you would you tell your trisha parishioners in your say when we see these i televangelists in one night do you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that you did better let them do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i thing are persians are pretty savvy actually. take or issue but i do think it's out to be too black i'm right about this i mean as i said before the issue is trying to

preach the gospel in the language of the day without improving the valleys of the day and i think all of us are very weary rightly so allowing the valleys of the day to take over the other dangers equilibria look we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and it's the right could say you know with young people are nice to my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people are aware of the names they hear as on the clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy who should be your hero the sort of person you are spying more to be like that like and hence to have the money according to he makes sense at that level i mean i'm not sure the micro level a work that out is not the sort of thing we do out here but i can see the point of trying to be relevant at that level it's a fine line i think it points. the fine line in your mind with the issues.

david david said talking about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around we need to make the world girls you guys little bad is the is this is the steak you know i understand it but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or the really good desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be and i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't nobody in power in my church just doesn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond bringing some sort of synod together although at some point in history

hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know i'm going to be a last word go. well i just want to clarify something about the word marketing as a marketeer when i talk to customers clients and help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a jump in here gentlemen gentlemen i. have come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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