and so now here must've been seized. they've been given the truth and the truth is they're of poland reluctantly admits its responsibility for last year's plane crash and the nuns could kill the nation's president but the report reduced funding still tries to shift someplace sort of. spain's credit rating faces a possible downgrade as the greek debt continues to fuel its near is a staple of instability it comes as germany refuses to sign blank checks on output

as is its. rival policies in the u.s. in seems to wrestle over the debt deadline of the chines day deadline looms meanwhile washington's biggest lead to something is wrong with me losing its picture it's. coulson's there is rather protest against poor living conditions saw already drawing comparisons with honey or uprisings from egypt's need to ousted him . and help a student out rather it's divine inspiration that's being used to drive the free market economy that's next. wealthy british scientists. know that. markets by now scandal. find out what's really happening to the global

economy in the cause a report on r.t. . can. start. to. flow in welcome to cross talk computable is the lord need marketing some are selling christian rock jesus jeans and even jesus pills is this the right way to promote christianity in the twenty first century or is it a new profitable me for those who have nothing to do with face. to continue. to discuss christian marketing i'm joined by you in banning in london he is director of marketing and communications at the u.n. planning marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's

a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time you want if i can go to you philip first. christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and prayed it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is published and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also

a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together the message and the person so that the message doesn't become simply an abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean if you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jesus jesus pills and other things that i will mention on this program i didn't seem to have much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there christian marketing is a huge business and lots of people are making money at it. and whether or not it's moral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such. but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to

the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me ok you know if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok you know if i go to you in london i mean i in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ for some in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment how do you feel about that. that's not a title i would use ok but just. i think i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talk about publishing the gospel. well let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and

savior so it's the message and the person that has all and to be honest has been established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the bio bible presents him to baba presenting as the lord we must tell that to the world the present him as being the only savior for the world for mankind a bubble presenting as a healer as the great physician present him as a god of love and so many other things and what we're doing in the marketing of jesus christ is presented in jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a work television literature stand in a street corner talking to people at work in the office or anywhere else communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way that by a book presents him yes but also i mean it puts be fair it's a business to i mean you have to have a business model and i am not casting any aspersions on your work whatsoever but

you know in filming this message in the the ideas associated with this person at the center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes and the and then of course there's different of the people in the world there the general genuine christians who want to present and from what jesus christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore this the market and as the means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few already but there's many others as we know they want you to buy their products because they want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but it is to profit and that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you want to jump in there go right ahead. here and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business

principles that you have to use or that the institution doesn't go bankrupt but a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but the idea bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he's the bottom line not the money ok film you know that's an interesting thing that you said ok go ahead you can go ahead but it seems to me that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold in explicitly in the west we've changed radical you would go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just use and again the word be in business i

do not see the church as a business of course some do on the novel but if you look at the book of acts if you look at the church of what all started and what they're taught are the priests or the behavior the conduct themselves have the body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's that's that's clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets cash for all forecasts and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they all there is and serve in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to with others and in doing so it means going out all the words your servant preach the gospel how we organize ourselves to do all that we communicate the message is all very key but to me it's not business ok but both of you gentlemen if you were talking about and i agree with you i mean we used to you were all speaking here right now at this point in

the program in a very idealized way we all know that that's not how it's being done i mean look at these televangelists when i go through all of the names of the last two decades and united states a disgraced themselves and really hurt. the faith of many people that they were preaching to but he they would be treated people like customers now disbelievers and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very large people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean let's talk about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. the issue that you're raising is the issue of the far scar or a misunderstanding christianity and promoting that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all but there's a problem was very alive and well in the new testament churches and you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we

send out a vangelis we usually think well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these evangelists and we send them out the same source that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews of that time were fleeing the destruction of rome and as they fled they fled out and as they fled they landed in various kinds of places and people said what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vangelis that was a band that was on the move that was god planning that and it was in the media like there any power point presentations right. now they're doing. there would be available you know for your view i would like to get my point ok you can go ahead you want to comment i understand great yeah yeah before the persecution which caused christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of

course spread the gospel but before that they were actually going out and talking to people and they were there were times when we just read it very clearly early part of the book about some of the we've gotten from house to house and breaking of bread in a priors and the church is growing we go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believer is to do that whether or not there is persecution. well if you want to go and jump in there you're right about. the point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that's all true highly documented in the media interest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation and motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of saul when he that when a soul is why isn't the soul if a person is righteous and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings meaning more money and more fame they go on television to get on. newspapers and so what they want to be

a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the correct way to go. if you think you think that that happens according to you so you know listen if you what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean thing that i just can't believe these are people of faith to say the number on the bottom all of the time i mean send this money and this money. right well one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time because there is such a poor risler a true denominations and perspectives and bissonnette in the other and to sort it out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street

and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to a person thinks that they know already gentlemen i said what god is about let me just be here right now we're going to we're going to a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state because. it's. to the k.k.k. he says. it's significant because. it's the. last time close it was in the cool down reaching the summit the flock from all over the world is out a few centimeters to sell costs time artsy goes to the underworld reach. for the cold war still gets people to feel nature try likes to save its

culture to where creature protected in the first official trip. to the region to watch a close up on the artsy. skits. just steal. from them. live. to. see. live. welcome back to prosecute or a little tree mind you we're talking about christianity in the twenty first century led. to a slim. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything for sale that is what our commercialized culture

accepts but the bait clear when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claim it devalues faith and their religion itself met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all such as what religion means to them for ten percent of the respondents consider it as national tradition the faith of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it could be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we

were talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what where do you draw the line in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean where i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills eccentric cetera i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that we know there are young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be with the times to be able to be. deal with modernity but where do you draw the line. i think it was. telling the gospel is to. look also in the language of the day without importing. and that's often a very hard line to draw. i think we do always run the risk of the bribery present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is

always trying to scratch where people are reaching then i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean i love the paper i may where they're itching what they want is more money a better sex lies a more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know out of mind sir but i think the challenge is that. these techniques to make the gospel clear rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to more people want it's very interesting if i can feel it if i can go to you i mean again in researching this program i was really astounded in a must admit even discussed it in how. how to build a christian business and and entrain really interchangeably using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and being really exactly to a consumer has been. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business

principles to church growth that started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gas. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you and you and how do you deal with that i think. is that an issue do you consider. well we talk about markets and market and marketing ploys and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid out in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world

and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind that and some of the whole do then do that how do we then can we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy is zero on individual lives that's what matters are we ought to represent jesus christ as he is so we talk about god as a god of love we must therefore show love you know we're walking a what talk in people we talk about god is peace peace we interact with people and what we do with a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is right as god is holy holiness and you know we want you know if. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we have these people talk about a christian lifestyle and that he actually cast a lot of money in here again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy you got to have

a lot of money out there i go to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states split i mean get your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had him go to the jesus this disco and you know and all of this and i mean even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a in a small town you know i mean it's very oppressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. yes i find it hard to type that whole side of it very seriously i'm afraid i think what the other brothers are sighing right you know in terms of the integrity perfectly trying to present the goal of good marketing i think should be to make their message clear not to make it more more track of to the mass market . but philip how do you do that i mean we're here because these yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so

we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different the purpose in christianity is that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are to appeal to him he's the customer he's by the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people and what they need to to the lord and what he wants in you want to jump in there i mean i mean they again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even jail calls come over from the united states to russia to say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in

a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much respected i mean some of the things that people wear like i said jesus jeans for example that would almost be blasphemy here i mean least for an average person i mean again it is it's it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment personal purposes for money. for its longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus kills and and all the rest when i will buy a jeans but you put jesus on it is like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in their products like that should not be part of the gospels message while unfortunate people are in the business if you like of the church and of christianity for a variety of reasons and

a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to see and that's the general impression because we see it through the media these television event of this and so on and we open the newspapers or hear and radio or t.v. of these things happen in i almost think poll that's holding out which is generally in the church but it's not just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrated as holy as they can and live for jesus and others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you care if you do tell your trisha parishioners in your say when we see these like televangelists and whatnot do you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that. let them do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that's how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i think persians are pretty savvy actually this particular issue but i do think it's our duty to pack and write about this i mean as i said before the issue is

trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without informing the values of the day and i think all of us are very weary rightly so allowing the valleys of the day to take over but the other dangers are equally very oh look we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is where i can say you know with young people i must of my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people of the names they hear is on the clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy he should be you here are the sort of person you were spying more to be like that like and hence to have him on your clothing to make sense at that level i mean i'm not sure the micro-level a work out he's not the sort of thing we do over here but i can see the point of wanting to be relevant at that level and it's a fine line i think it points. you know where is the fine line in your mind with

the issues rather than. david david said talked about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around as i think we need to make the world go to ride god or bad choice is the is is this is the stake you know i understand that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we can begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or to really the desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be and i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't know what are you in power in my church just doesn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way

we're well beyond bringing some sort of together although at some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things and in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know to give you the last word go ahead. well i just want to clarify something about the word marketing as a marketeer when i talk to customers clients on the help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen we've lost have come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk.