india is available to move joyce people to the home of the greeks we go to the grand imperial college the torch was pushed. closely to see don't need to go and. read this and the colonel was toto retreat. hello this is our team from moscow tonight poland reluctantly admits it's responsibility for last year's plane crash that killed the nation's president and the report released on friday still tries to shift some place to russia. spain's credit rating faces the possible downgrade is that greek debt burden continues to fuel the stablemates instability it comes as germany refuses to sign blank checks on athens. rival parties in the u.s.

continue to wrestle over the deadlock as they choose to a deadline. of washington's biggest lead china is rapidly losing patience. and thousands counterpart in israel in protest against living conditions some are already for the comparison for the town of. egypt's leader of state. programs continue next to nazi a look at whether it's divine inspiration is being used to drive the free market economy that's the latest subject being examined and cross top is just after a minute away. the british science. markets weiner scandal. find out what's really happening to the global

economy in the cause a report on our team. can. start . flowing welcome to cross talk i'm peter all about this the lord need marketing some are selling christian rock jesus jeans and even jesus pills is this the right way to promote christianity in the twenty first century or is the new profitable nice for those with nothing to do with face. can. you discuss christian marketing i'm joined by you in getting in london he is director of marketing and communications at the u.n. getting marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time

you want if i can go to you philip first. christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. oh well peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and prayed it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is publish and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept

together the message and the person so that the message doesn't become simply an abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean if you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and other things that i will mention on this program this in seem to have much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there are christian marketing is a huge business lots of people are making money at it. and whether or not it's immoral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such. but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel

than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me you know if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok unifying to you in london i mean in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ first for some in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment but how do you feel about that. that's not a title i would use ok but just. i think i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talk about publishing the gospel. well let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message and the person as all are to be honest has been

established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the buy a bible presents him the baba presents him as the lord we must tell that to the world to present him as being the only savior for the world for mankind to double present him as the healer as the great physician present him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in the marketing of jesus christ is presented in jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a television literature stand in a street corner talking to people who work in the office or anywhere else communicate in the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way the bible presents him but also i mean it puts be fair it's a business true i mean you have to have a business model and that casting any aspersions on your work whatsoever but you know in telling this message in the the ideas associated with this person at the

center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes on the one of course they're different of the people in the world they're the genuine genuine christians who want to present and from what you just christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few already but there's many others as we know they want people to buy their products because their want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but it is to profit that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you want to jump in there go right ahead. here and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much that the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use so that the institution doesn't go bankrupt but

a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but the bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he is the bottom line not the money so he feels good that's an interesting thing that you say ok go ahead you can go ahead but it seems to me that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold in expression in the west would change radical you would go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that was the word that we just used the word be in business i do not see the church as

a business of course some do and that's undeniable but if you look at the book of acts if you look at the church i with all started and what they're taught all their priests or their behavior their conduct themselves as a body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's less clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets and cash for all forecasts and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they all their themselves in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so it means going out all the world as your servant preach the gospel how we organize ourselves to do all that we communicate the message is over a key but for me it's not business because it both you gentlemen if you were talking about and i agree with you i mean your street you were all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealized way we all know that that's not how it's being done i mean look at

these televangelists and i go through all of the names of the last two decades in the united states a disgrace themselves and really hurt. the the faith of many people that they were preaching to get if they would be treated people like customers now disbelievers and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very lot of people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean let's talk about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. the issue that you're raising is is the issue of the thought of scott's a poor misunderstanding christianity and encouraging that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was very alive and well in the new testament churches and you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think that well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these affairs with us and we send them out to save souls

that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews at that time were fleeing the destruction of rome and as they fled they fled out and as they fled they they landed in various kinds of places and people said what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vandalism that was evangelism on the move that was god planning i mean it was in these if you like any power point presentations right. now they do i think. there would be available you know if you i would like to get my point ok you can go ahead you want to comment i understand great yeah yeah before the persecution which caused christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of course spread the gospel but before that they were actually going out

and talking to people and they were there were times when we just read it very clearly early part of the book about some of the will go from house to house and breaking the bread in the prayers and the church is growing that we go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believer has to do that whether or not there is persecution. well if you want to go and jump in there you're right there but i think the point you just made a while ago about the televangelists that's all true documented in the media interest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation and motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of saul when he that when a soul is why isn't the soul if a person is precious and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings meaning more money and more fame they go on television to get on newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the

correct way to go you know what if you think you think that this happens according to you so no it isn't what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you to it it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean thing that i just can't believe these are people of faith to say the number on the bottom all of the time i mean send us moneys and just money. right one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time because there is such a poor risk for a few denominations and perspectives and this and that and the other and to sort it out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the layman or of the

person on the street almost everybody to a person thinks that they know already by gentleness of what god is about i mean if you can see that right here right now we're going to we're going to do a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state that are. taking. place. to live through the. city big splash in the world of politics business what turns it the in science into i ching products we don't understand. easy steps we follow procedures to teach you better some products the big breakthrough got. some light on such and such an update here on. the future coverage.

if. live to keep you safe. and. welcome back across calm i'm fearless tree mind you we're talking about christianity in the twenty first century. slim. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything post sale that is what our commercialized culture accepts but the big fear when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claiming

devalues pay and their religion itself but this isn't met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all citizens what religion means to them thirty that percent of the respondents consider it as national tradition the faith of their sisters twenty six percent see religion as polling moral well twenty one percent think it to be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they a link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we were talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what we're do you draw the line

in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills etc etc i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that we are there and young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be with the times to be able to be. deal with maturity but where do you draw the line. i think it was carved by. retelling the gospel is to tell of course when the language of the day without importing the value that's often a very hard one to draw or. do was run the risk of the bribery present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is always trying to scratch where people are itching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean a lot of people are maybe they're itching what they want is more money or better

sex lies and more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know the main so think the challenge is them use these techniques to make the gospel. rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to more people want it's very interesting if i can feel it if i can go to you i mean i get in researching this program i was really astounded and i must admit even disgusted in how. how to build a christian business and and i really had interchangeably using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and being really exactly to a consumer. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth that started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the

world through marketing we we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gospel. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it there is you and how do you deal with that it. is that an issue that you consider. well we'll talk about marketing and marketing and marketing ploys and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid out in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world and preach the gospel that's what we do well behind in terms of how do we even do that how do we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles

and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy is the all in individual lives that's what matters and we ought to work with jesus christ as he is so we talk about god as a god of love we must therefore show love you know walk you know what we're dealing with people we talk about god is peace peace we interact with people and what we do have a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is righteous god is holy we must demonstrate holiness in the law and you know that you know if. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we've had people talk about a christian lifestyle and he actually cast a lot of money and again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy and you don't have a lot of money out there if i go to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states i mean your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had go to the jesus this disco era and all

of this and i mean even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a in a small town you know i mean it's very impressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. look i found a heart attack that also out of a very seriously i'm afraid i think what the other brother society right you know in terms of the integrity perfectly trying to present the goal of good marketing i think should be to make a message clear not to make it more more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean. yes go ahead well what one of the difficulties with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase and that's a marketing kind of thing different. purchasing christianity is that jesus christ

purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are the people to appeal to him he's the customer he's the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that and not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they what we need to peel to the lord and what he wants in you want to jump in there i mean i think it would be again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even gel clothes come over from the united states to russia i did say oh no not these people not a year go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much for spectator mean some of the things that people wear like i said jesus jeans for example but i would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again

a is it's a it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment person purposes for money. for its longevity will you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is this diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest. i will buy a jeans but you put jesus on it it's like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in their products that should not be part of the gospels message while unfortunate people are in the business if you like of the church and of christianity for a variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to see that's the general impression because we see through the media these tele television evangelists and so on and we open the newspapers or hear one radio or t.v.

or these things happen in think cold that's how we know it is generally in the church but it's not that's just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrated as holy as they can and live jesus as the others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you do you tell your parishioners when you say when we see these i televangelists in one night do you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that. let him do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that's how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i think persians are pretty savvy actually. pickler issues but i think it's our country to crack right about this i mean as i said before the issue is trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without importing the valleys of the day and i think all of us are very weary rightly so

a battle in the valleys of the day to take over the the other dangers equilibria look we end up speaking some secret language you know dying in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is why i could say you know with young people last of my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people are aware of the names they hear as on clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy who should be your hero the sort of person you are spying more to be like that like and hence to have him on your clothing to it makes sense a better level i mean i'm not sure the micro level a work that out is not the sort of thing we do out here but i can see the point of wanting to be relevant at that level it's a fine line i think of points. the fine line in your mind you with the issue of reading and writing. david david said talking about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around as i think we need to make the world

girls who write a gospel. is the it is this is the stake you know i understand that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant and when we try to do that we begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or the really good desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help people be who jesus christ wants them to be and i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's a it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't nobody in power in my church just doesn't have money and power and so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond bringing some sort of together although some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things in

the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know to give you the last word go. well i just want to clarify something about the world market and as a market here when i talk to customers clients on the help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen we've lost come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember our stockings. if. you want.