in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you fill up first . christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your mind. peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and pray that it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is published and so the gospel is to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together the message in the person so that the message doesn't become simply an

abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean if you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and other things that i will mention on this program doesn't seem to have much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there christian marketing is a huge business lots of people are making money at it. then whether or not it's immoral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such. but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel

than simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me ok you know if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok you know if i go to you in london i mean in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ for some in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment well how do you feel about that. well that's that's not a title i would use ok but there's a thing i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talked about publishing the gospel. well let's define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message and

the person as all are to be honest as been established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the bible bible presents him the bubble presents him as being lord we must tell that to the world present him as being the only savior for the world for mankind the bible present him as the healer as the great physician the bab present him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in marketing of jesus christ is presenting jesus in this way in other words the viable way so whichever means we do it through whether it's a website television literature stand in a street corner talking to people at work in the office or anywhere else communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way the bible presents him yes but also i mean it let's be fair it's a business too i mean you have to have a business model and i am not casting any aspersions on your work not whatsoever but you know in felling this message and the the idea is associated with this

person at the center of this religion you do have to have a business plan don't you. well yes on the one of course they're different of the people in the world they're the genuine genuine christians who want to present and from what jesus christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their products and you listed a few already but there's many others as we know they want you to buy their products because they want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but to profit that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you want to jump in there go right ahead. and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use so that the institution doesn't go bankrupt but

a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but the bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line that begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in the business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he's the bottom line not the money ok film you know that's an interesting thing that you say ok go ahead you're going to go ahead but it seems to me that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold an expression in the west would change radical you and go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just been using again the word be in business i do not see the church as a business of course some do. but if you look at the book of acts if you look at

the church how it all started and what they were taught all their priests or their behavior their conduct themselves as a body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's that's that's clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets and casual forecasts and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ and they all there themselves in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so means go and out all the world as you said and preach the gospel we organize ourselves to do that we communicate the message is over a key but for me it's not business but both you gentlemen ok we're talking about and i agree with you i mean but your street you were all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealised way we all know that that's not how it's being done i mean look at

these televangelists and i go through all of the names of the last two decades in the united states of disgraced themselves and really hurt. the the faith of many people that they were preaching to but did they would be treated people like customers not is believe yours and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very a lot of people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean it's not about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. well the issue that you're raising is is the issue of the false gospel or misunderstanding christianity and then promoting that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was very alive and well in the new testament churches you know one of the things about the vandalism. model that we usually think of as we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think that well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these evangelists and we send them out to save souls

that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews at that time were fleeing the destruction of rome and as they fled they fled out and as they fled they landed in various kinds of places and people said well what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vandalism that was a vandalism on the move that was god planning that evangelism and then these need to be like there any power point presentations right. now they're doing. their work me available you know where you i would like to get my point ok you can go ahead you want to comment i understand your eight yeah yeah before the persecution which caused the christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of course spread the gospel but before that they were actually going out and talking to people. there were times when we just read it very clear in the early

part of the book of acts where they would go from house to house and breaking bread in a priors and the church is growing to go to the temple and they would preach all of this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission appointed believe is to do that whether or not there is persecution. well look you want to go and jump in there you're right there but i'm going to point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that's all true highly documented in the media the rest so we know that people i was talking about earlier about people's motivation their motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of saul when he that when a soul is why isn't the soul if a person is precious and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings meaning more money and more fame they go on television to get on newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the

correct way to go if you know i want if you think you think that there have been supported. what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean seeing that i just can't believe these are people of faith to say the number on the bottom all of the time i mean send us monies and this money. right one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of the time because there's such a poor refrigeration of denominations and perspectives and this and that and the other and to sort it out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to

a person thinks that they know already that by gentlemen said what god was about let me. right now we're going to we're going to do a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state of the art. and. welcome to the. big splash in the world of high tech business what turns it science into i can't see products they don't understand oh he's he's got he followed procedures to teach your betters abroad and their big breakthrough back home spotlight on start unsettling update here on c.n.n. we've got the future covered.

for. slim. welcome back ross talk i'm hearing about tree mind you were talking about christianity in the twenty first century. slim. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything for sale that is what our commercialized cultic sets but debates flair when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claim it

devalues faith and their religion itself but this isn't met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all such as what religion means to them that percent of the respondents consider it as national tradition the faith of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it to be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we were talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so david if i could ask you what where do you draw the line

in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus pills eccentric cetera i mean where do you draw the line because i mean i know that we are there and young people have different needs and interests and whatnot and christianity wants to be up with the times to be able to be. deal with modernity but where do you draw the line. i think it was do said the goal of retelling the gospel is to look also in the language of the day without importing the values of the and that's often a very hard line to draw i think we do always run the risk of the right be present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is always trying to scratch where people are itching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean i love the paper i'm a way they're reaching what they want is more money and better sex lies and more

successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know out of mind so think the challenge is that. these techniques to make the gospel clear rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to what people want it's very interesting if i can feel if i can go to you i mean i get in researching this program i was really astounded and i must admit even discussed it and how. how to build a christian business and and i really entered changeable using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and then we did exactly to a consumer has been. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth that started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin peeling to the

world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gospel. appears in people's eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you and how do you deal with that i think. is that an issue that you consider. well we talk about markets in the markets and markets employers and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid down in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind that in terms of how do we then do that how do we then can we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing

strategy is their own individual lives that's what matters we ought to represent jesus christ as is so we talk about god is a god of love we must therefore show love you know we're walking the walk talk in our deal of the people we talk about god is peace peace we interact with people and what we do we must have a peaceful nature god is merciful must demonstrate that god is right just god is holy holiness in the world you know but you know it's i think. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we've had these people talk about a christian lifestyle and that he actually cost a lot of money and again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy you're going to have a lot of money out there trying to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states i mean your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had and go to the jesus disco and you know and all

of this and i mean and even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a in a small town you know i mean it's very oppressive because again it gets down to dollars and cents. yeah i found out that i thought also out of a very seriously on the friday i think. you know in terms of the integrity. of the president the goal of good marketing i think should be. not to make it more more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean what you can do is because these yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different the purchase in christianity is

that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are to appeal to him he's the customer he's buying the people in a sense if you want to look at it like that not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they want we need to peel to the lord and what he wants. you want to jump in there i mean i mean the day again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even jail calls come over from the united states to russia and say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much for spectator i mean some of the things that people wear like i said jesus jeans for example that would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again

a is it's a it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment person purposes for money. for its longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest i mean i would buy a jeans but you put jesus on it it's like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in the products that should not be part of the gospels message while unfortunate people are in the business if you like of the church and of christianity for a variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to say that that's the general impression because we see it through the media these to live television evangelists and so on and we open the newspapers or hear on radio or t.v.

of these things happen in our might think of that's how we get which is generally in the church but it's not that's just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus chris is doing what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrated as holy as they can and live for jesus as best they can and telling others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you tell do you do you tell your parishioners when you say when we see these i televangelists in one night do you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that they don't let them do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that's how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i think the persians are pretty savvy actually this particular issue but i do think it's hard to be too black and white about this i mean as i said before the issue is trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without improving the values of the day and i think all of us are very wary rightly so about in the valleys of

the day to take over but that the other dangers are equally variable that we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is right could say you know with young people i must of my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people aware of the names they hear as on the clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy who should be your hero the sort of person you are spying more to be like that like and hence to have him on you cloud into it makes sense at that level i mean i'm not sure that micro-level a work that out is not the sort of thing we do over here but i can see the point of trying to be relevant at that level and it's a fine line i think appoints philip party you know where is the fine line in your mind you know with the issues right ahead. david david said talked about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around as i think we need to make the world. is the is is is the stake you know i understand

that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we begin changing the gospel to suit the needs or to relieve the desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be you know i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't have money and power in my church just didn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond bringing some sort of together although at some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these

things in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know i'm going to. well i just want to clarify something about the word marketing as a marketeer when i talk to customers clients and help them with their marketing strategies i am helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a big jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen i. have come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk.

good report for the accusations significant it's just an attempt to shift some parts of the glane aviation experts say war souls clutching at straws as poland reluctantly admits being chiefly responsible for the plane crash that killed the nation's president last year also. we should have amputated greece from the euro zone long ago the greek drain away spain the country's credit rating prepares for the worst because of its eurozone stablemates instability while germany refuses to sign blank checks on athens junk bonds. deadline choose day but still no

sign of a decision in the u.s. debt as rival parties wrestle over a solution america's biggest lender china loses its patience. and the square foot of civil unrest thousands camped out in israel's public plazas demanding better living conditions with concerns it's mirroring the town area uprising with egypt's leader i'm still. welcome you all to see from moscow with me kevin oh. this hour it's now midnight here in our top story for you poland's investigation into the presidential plane crash in is small and last year since the tragedy it was caused by its crew but it also partly blames russia for the catastrophe that killed lech kaczynski and dozens of the polish political elite. has the latest from warsaw. certainly the main

highlight of this press conference was that poland openly admitted that its crew of the crew of the airplane was the one to blame for the tragic plane crash which killed most of the country's political elite ninety six people including other presidential couples. in april of last year but still there was some controversy in that because many of circumstantial evidence was named in some experts believe that this report was used by the commission in some sense to. criticize russia and to shift some part of the blame on to russia this is what some experts have to say about that. i think we're now witnessing some political games to shift the blame from the polish side i was an expert in this commission and i was surprised to learn that the crew was chosen immediately before the flight such poor preparation for such a high profile flight but certainly most of the points voiced by the commission point. of the flight crew at their inadequate.