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can. start. to. flow in welcome across town computable does the lord need marketing some are selling christian rock jesus jeans and even jesus pills is this the right way to promote christianity in the twenty first century or is it a new profitable nisha for those who have nothing to do with face. can.

you discuss christian marketing i'm joined by you and getting in london he is director of marketing and communications at the un dating marketing consultancy and in columbus we go to philip ross he's a pastor and author and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger all right gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time you want if i'm going to you fill up first. christianity is a message everyone would agree with that but are there wrong ways to deliver that message and i'm talking more specifically in this program business because christianity as a business is quite profitable profitable how ethical is that in your own heart. oh well peter first of all thanks for hosting this program and allowing us to talk about jesus on this venue i do appreciate it and prayed it would be useful to him. first of all the gospel has always been marketed the word in the bible is published

and so the gospel has to be published but there are several difficulties with it you said that christianity is basically a message and that's half true message is part of it but it's also a person in the message doesn't come without the person and so they need to be kept together the message and the person so that the message doesn't become simply an abstract idea devoid of person ok but i mean do you think the message is being advertised with the person in mind i mean jesus jeans jesus pills and the things that i will mention on this program doesn't seem to have much connection with the message and the person you know you're absolutely right there's lots of that going out there a christian marketing is a huge business lots of people are making money at it. and then whether or not it's moral or not it's a lot of it is how it how it's being done and why it's being done and such.

but it is often done poorly one of the things that happens is that when we believe that the gospel is a message that we have to sell we begin to water it down to make it appealing to the buyer because otherwise the buyers won't want it and there's more to the gospel and simply an appealing message of what jesus can do for me even if in london if i go to you there's also the idea of service ok you know if i go to you in london i mean in researching this program i came across a number of references that the historic jesus jesus christ first for some in many ways a great c.e.o. . an interesting comment how do you feel about that. well that's that's not a title i would use ok but there's a thing i think i need to clarify or expand upon we talk about the marketing of jesus christ and my friend earlier on talk about publishing the gospel. well let's

define what marketing marketing is in my definition of marketing and marketing specialist as you know my definition of marketing is that we must promote and present jesus christ to the world as lord and savior so it's the message under person as all are to be honest has been established but what we're doing is presenting jesus in the way that the bible presents him the brother presents him as being lord we must tell that to the world about the present him as being the only a savior for the world for mankind to present him as the healer as the great physician present him as a god of love and so many other things what we're doing in marketing of jesus christ is presented in jesus in this way in other words the bible way so whatever means we do it through whether it's a television literature stand in a street corner talking to people at work at the office or anywhere else

communicating the message it's all about presenting jesus in the way the buy a book presents him it's also i mean it could be fair it's a business to i mean you have to have a business model and they're casting any aspersions on your work whatsoever but you know in filming this message and in the the ideas associated with this person at the center of this religion you do have to have a business frame don't you. well yes and then of course there's a difference of the people in the world they're the genuine genuine christians who want to present and from what jesus christ correctly and there are those who want to make money and therefore they see marketing as a means by which they can persuade people to buy their clocks and you listed a few already there's many others as we know they want people to buy their products because they want to make money so their motivation isn't to win souls or to change their lives or to cause others to come to jesus as their lord and savior but it is to profit and that's where i draw the line with those type of people ok philip you

want to jump in there go right ahead. here and that's exactly right part of the deal is that you know it's not so much the church is a business i suppose you can use that model because there are certain business principles that you have to use or the institution doesn't go bankrupt but a better model might be a nonprofit business where the idea of the bottom line is not making money but the idea that the bottom line is representing jesus christ and drawing people to him and providing services in his name and on his behalf and that's not always a profit making opportunity when you're focused on money as the bottom line begins to distort all kinds of other things up and down the line in business so we need to keep jesus christ at the core he's the bottom line not the money he feels good it's an interesting thing that you said you go ahead you can go ahead go ahead but it

seems to me that the whole idea of christianity the way it is sold in expression in the west would change radical you would go ahead if you take the capitalism out of it go ahead. yes that is the word that we just been using again the word be in business i do not see the church as a business of course some do and that's undeniable but if you look at the book of acts if you look at the church which all started and what they thought it creates or their behavior their conduct themselves as a body of believers business wasn't part of it of course they organize themselves in various ways and that's less clear but it was not a business they didn't have a business plan with goals and targets and casual forecasts and all this the church is the body of believers who believe in the lord jesus christ's and they all there is and serve in such a way that they can live in fellowship also to be able to win others and in doing so it means going out to all the words you said and preach the gospel we organize

ourselves to do that we communicate that message is over a key but for me it's not business ok but both you gentlemen ok we're talking about and i agree with you i mean we're used to you we're all speaking here right now at this point in the program in a very idealized way we all know that that's not how it's being done and i mean look at these televangelists when i go through all of the names of the last two decades in the united states it just disgraced themselves and really hurt. the the faith of many people that they were preaching to but he they were he treated people like customers not is believe yours and they corrupt the message and that's why televangelist particular united states have a very a lot of people have a very low opinion of them go ahead philip i mean it's not about the real world gentlemen not how it should be. well the real issue that you're raising is is the issue of the false gospel or misunderstanding christianity and in promoting that as if it were the gospel and this is not a problem that's new to modernity or new to history at all this this problem was

very alive and well in the new testament churches and you know one of the things about the evangelism model that we usually think of is we think when we send out a vangelis we usually think that well you know we get a party together and we have a dinner and we pray over these evangelists and we send them out to save souls that's not exactly how it was done in the new testament in the new testament christians and jews of that time were fleeing the destruction of room and as they fled if they fled out and as they fled they they landed in various kinds of places and people said well what happened here what was going on and they said well let me tell you about this story that was a vandalism that was a vandalism on the move that was god planning that evangelism in these medieval like there any power point presentations right. now that you know there are also people who know there's a worldly available you know where your believe you i would like to get my point ok

you can go ahead you want to comment i understand great great yeah yeah good for the prosecution which caused the christians to flee to different parts in so doing they of course are the gospel but before that they were actually going out and talking to people and there were there were times when we just read it very clearly early part of the book about some of the glitter from house to house and breaking bread in the prayers and the churches growing to go to the temple and they would preach all this was happening before any persecution took place so the commission upon the believe he's to do that whether or not there is persecution. well if you want to go and jump in there you're right about. the point you just made a while ago about the televangelist that's all true documented in the media interest so we know that people it's what i was talking about earlier about people's motivation and motivation might not be as descriptive says in terms of saul when he that when if a soul is why isn't the soul if

a person is precious and they want to win them to jesus it might be fame it might be popularity large congregations meaning more offerings meaning more money and more fame they go on television to get on. newspapers and so what they want to be a media personality that might be the motivation but that's not to say that's the correct way to go for i want if you think you think that there have been supported . if you will what do you think it is that happened more times than not in the united states now with these mega churches and their television programs and and i mean i'll tell you it turns a lot of people off and i'm one of them i mean theme that i just can't believe these are people with faith right here to say and i'll telephone number on the bottom of the time i mean fenders monies and this money. right one of the interesting things about christianity is that most christians think that most christians are wrong about most things most of time because there's such a poor risk for a few denominations and perspectives and this is matt and the other and to sort it

out is incredibly difficult hardly anybody is willing to take the time but another interesting thing happens in the midst of our world when you get out on the street and you begin talking about the bible or christianity to the layman or the person on the street almost everybody to a person thinks that they know already that by gentlemen said what god was about let me just say right here right now we're going to. we're going to a short break and we'll continue our discussion on the selling of jesus state start . to take. down the official ante up location. i pod touch from the.

child's life on the good. seal and to my. mind. this is for you now with the plumber if you want. to. see. if. led mission and three are going to take should be free. for charges free. agency three. three. three the soldiers scream bloody bloody mediocre for your media projects a free media to r.t.

dot com. love you can see. plenty. plenty to welcome back roscoe carroll about tree mind you we're talking about christianity in the twenty first century the same the game system led. but before let's see what religion means to russians. everything for sale that is what our commercialized culture sets but debates clear when it comes to marketing the message of jesus christ many claiming devalues pay and their religion itself would visit met in today's society the russian public opinion research center all citizens what religion means to them thirty nine percent of the respondents consider it as

a national tradition the faith of their ancestors twenty six percent see religion as polling moral values twenty one percent think it to be part of world culture and another seventeen percent regard religion as they a link to god with the important role religion has in society marketing christianity looks like a beneficial idea but can it be justified. ok now we're joined by reverend david smith in sydney he's a parish priest welcome to the program we were in the first part of the program we were talking about the commodification of christianity and how its message is spread through the world and and we've been focusing on how it's been commercialized here so even if i could ask you what where do you draw the line in trying to get the message of the gospel out i mean i mentioned earlier in the program jesus jeans jesus kills eccentrics cetera i mean where do you draw the line

because i mean i know that there are young people have different needs an interest in what not and christianity wants to be with the times to be able to be. with modernity but where do you draw the line. i think it was. really telling the gospel was to tell a cross when the language of the day without importing the value and that's often a very how drawn to draw. i think we do is run the risk of be present things on the cutting the actual truth we're trying to present. i think we've got a basic problem in terms of trying to use marketing ploys because marketing is always trying to scratch where people are reaching and i think the christian gospel doesn't do that i mean a lot of people are maybe they're itching what they want is more money a better sex lies the more successful business and i think the christian gospel offers them any of those things you know out of mind so. the challenge is to use

these techniques to make the gospel clear rather than to try and produce a product that just appeals to what people want it's very interesting if i can feel it if i can go to you i mean again in researching this program i was really astounded in a most even disgusted in how. how to build a christian business and and really have interchangeably using consumer in soul you know getting more souls and then being really exactly to a consumer. that's been very much a part of the church growth movement which was the application of business principles to church growth and started some twenty years ago or more one of the things that the apostle paul talks about in his letter to the corinthians is that the gospel is actually foolishness to the world and so when we begin to peel into the world through marketing we are making the gospel appear foolish and so the more successful that effort is the more foolish the actual gossip. appears in people's

eyes and that's an issue that really needs to be dealt with i don't have any idea how to deal with it but there it is you know you and how do you deal with that it. is that an issue that you consider. well we talk about marketing and mark and techniques and marketing ploys and all of that but really the best marketing. strategy for the church is what is laid out in scripture if we just look at the record of the early church and hold the because jesus before he left he told us what to do go into all the world and preach the gospel that's what we do but behind that in terms how do we then do that how do we then can we communicate the message we look at the record of what the apostles and the early church did and really the best marketing strategy because they're all individual lives that's what matters and we ought to up as a jesus christ as is so we'll talk about god as

a god of love we must therefore show love you know walking or what talk in people when you talk about god is peace peace good people are what we do with a peaceful nature god is merciful but god is righteous god is holy we must demonstrate holiness in the world you know we want you know if. that's exactly right ok but i think it's very interesting here is that you know we tell you people talk about a christian lifestyle and in the end he actually cost a lot of money and again looking at all of these christian items that you can buy and you can have a lot of money out there i go to you david in sydney i mean you know for thinking more along the lines of evangelicals maybe like in the united states i mean your jesus jacket jesus shoes jesus had a go to the jesus does this go in you know in all of this and i mean even for a middle class family if you want to get along in that kind of lifestyle maybe you're in a and a small town you know i mean it's very impressive because again it gets down to

dollars and cents. i find it hard to take a whole sort of a very seriously i'm afraid i think what the other person sighing right you know in terms of the integrity of what are you trying to present the goal of good marketing i think should be to make your message clear not to make it more more attractive to the mass market. but philip how do you do that i mean when you hear the call to yes go ahead. one of the difficulties with the current marketing model is that most folks who are marketing christianity assume that the people in the pews are the market so we've got to sell the gospel to the people in the pews but if you look at the bible there was a purchase that's a marketing kind of thing that's quite different. the purchase in christianity is that jesus christ purchased his people with his blood on the cross so we are the people to appeal to him he's the customer he's the people in

a sense if you want to look at it like that not the people in the pews buying him he's buying the people and so we need to not appeal to the people in what they want we need the people to the lord and what he wants you in you want to jump in there i mean i make it today again i think we're all speaking in very ideal types because we all know that this is not happening and how the message of christ of the holy bible is being portrayed all over the place i mean when these even gel clothes come over from the united states to russia to say oh no not these people who are not here go back home because they're used to it back there ok but here people look at religion in a very different way it's very solemn and it's very it's very much respected i mean some of the things that people wear like a secular jesus jeans for example but i would almost be blasphemy here i mean lisa for an average person i mean again is it's it's the commodification culture is is hijacking as it were for entertainment personal purposes for money. for its

longevity what do you and how do you think about that i mean i mean it's culture is diluting the message more and more. well i agree with that a lot of people are doing these things for personal gain and profit and all of that and i wouldn't buy jesus jeans or jesus pills and and all the rest i mean i would buy a jeans but you put jesus on it it's like making a mockery of the gospel as far as i'm concerned so i wouldn't be interested in that product that should not be part of the gospels message well unfortunately people are in the business if you like off the church and of christianity for a variety of reasons and a lot of times it's to make money but that's not to see that's the general impression because we see through the media these two live television evangelists and so on and we open the newspapers or hear one radio or t.v. of these things happen in a while might think oh that's how you know it is generally in the church but it's not that's just a small percentage of the church actually the true church of jesus christ is doing

what the bible says in terms of living a life as consecrating as holy as they can and leave jesus and others which is a sense of what the gospel is david what do you tell if you did would you tell your trisha parishioners when you say when we see these i televangelists and in one night you tell your parishioners this is not the truth faith or do you say that they're to let them do what they want to do in a very relativistic way that how they worship. how do you deal with that i think i think persians are pretty savvy actually using her particular issue but i do think it's out to be too black i'm right about this i mean as i said before issue is trying to preach the gospel in the language of the day without improving the values of the day and i think all of us are very weary rightly so that they're allowing the valleys of the day to take over the other dangers equilibria look we end up speaking some secret language you know going in latin or something in order to preserve the truth and we do have to be relevant and this is why i keep saying you

know with young people i must of my work is with young people and i can understand why you know if young people are aware of the names they hear is on a clothing you want to say well hey jesus is the sort of guy who should be your hero the sort of person you are spying more to be like that like and to have him on you quoting to he makes sense a better level i mean i'm not sure the micro level a work that out is not the sort of thing we do over here but i can see the point of trying to be relevant at that level it's a fine line i think appoints. a fine line in your mind you know with the issues right here. david david said talking about making the gospel relevant to the world actually i would turn that around because i think we need to make the world guys were bad choices about which is the is is the stake you know and i understand that but the gospel is what stable and that's the model that's the that's where we hang our hats if you will so it's not

a matter of making the gospel relevant when we try to do that we can begin changing the gospel just needs are to really the desires of the people we're talking to rather than trying to help the people be who jesus christ wants them to be and i've been writing about this for probably twenty years it's a problem and i really don't know what to do with it part of the problem is that the more successful the marketers are success builds money and power well i don't know but in our in my church just doesn't have money and power so i don't really know how to deal with it but it would be great to figure out some way we're well beyond bringing some sort of synod together although at some point in history hopefully something like that can happen and the churches can address some of these things and in the meantime i guess we just keep doing the best we can you know to give you the last word go. well i just want to clarify something about the world

market in the markets here when i talk to customers clients on the help them with their marketing strategies helping them to tailor make their products and services to the needs of the customer ok you know i'm afraid i'm going to have a big jump in here that gentlemen gentlemen we've come to the end of the program here many thanks to my guest today in london columbus and sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

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