it's a very warm welcome so it's home now here in moscow washington analysing the deal to raise its debt ceiling and of the to fold the critics say that doesn't solve america's problems it's for tension scaling down the drain on. the u.s. in the e.u. stepped up their mission sanctions against the syrian government's offer of crackdown on protesters were fortunate enough more than a hundred people dead constance's violence or in a southern accent his country is on acceptable. egyptian troops of caution

proteins dizzying clyro is that if you can these movements and break up around a hundreds of demonstrations of comes out in saudi as well and we see them all the false the pace of change often the result not to say. ok out next american exceptionalism is a just a self-serving mess. cross-talk way. it used to be an ideal place for a holiday but it won't change in a moment. the wounds of war are still visible. the republic is not only relieved but also shaping

the future. can. start. slowly and welcome to crossfire computor labout just how exceptional american exceptionalism goes to the very foundation of how most americans see their country's history and place in the world is there any truth to this world view or is it just a myth. you can. start. to discuss the meaning of american exceptionalism i'm joined by david merkel in copenhagen he's a former deputy assistant secretary of state in the administration of george w. bush in oxford we go to god the hard thing from oxford university and author of the

myth of american exceptionalism and in new york across it peter shock he is a professor at yale law school and coeditor of understanding america the anatomy of an exceptional nation and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want since you wrote a book on it and either go to godfrey first in oxford you are quite open out there if it's a myth why is that a myth well first. myth does not mean that everything about it is untrue it is an idea or a story which is partially true and one of the things i say in terms in the book is that it's not a good thing to believe things which are not wholly true now that basically two parts to my thesis one is that historically. people in the united states exaggerated how different they are on our side how exceptional to history and that is the history of the united states in many many important ways has been part of

larger movements larger ideas the protestant reformation the enlightenment there are all kinds of political and legal ideas which came from europe but also such great historical movements as the competition between the british and french and powers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries industrialisation the industrial revolution all of these things said present the united states is somehow created by only american events and ideas such as you know massachusetts puritanism or frederick jackson turns i just the frontier seems to me to be distorting history that's the one second idea which is probably more controversial is the idea that somehow since the end of the cold war american exceptionalism become more nationalistic more aggressive and more of a problem for the rest of the world if i go to you peter i mean

a lot of people see american exceptionalism as a problem from americans also i mean how do you reflect about what godfrey just said because he basically did deflates it or diminishes it is that america is just an extension of the european experience in many different ways though you could say that no republican ideas came to the fore there but in any other ways are americans exaggerating who they are what they are. well i don't know you know it's very much a matter of degree no sensible person would imagine that the american culture began in seven hundred seventy six and didn't have important roots and in europe of course it did. the question really is whether the united states has developed a culture and a political system an economic system that is sufficiently different from european countries in particular in some other countries as well. that we could think of it . as very distinctive characteristics of

a society and i think that's undoubtedly true there are a number of respects in which we differ very decidedly from from europe to use the most obvious comparison first is that we are a very. as societies go we are very. attractive to immigrants and we generally receive immigrants in a very in a very dynamic way and in very large numbers and that has shaped almost everything else about our society ok well savingly demographically we're very different than europe we have a growing population part of that is because of immigration but a part of it's also because americans tend to be much more optimistic than europeans are and believe in the future in ways that europeans don't thirdly there's a very strong as a religious a carrot carrot and says we just kind of exaggerate sure is that i mean that how do

you know how optimistic europeans are it's ridiculous to say. well we have servant we have survey evidence we have survey evidence that suggests that people's attitudes toward the future towards their ability to control their destinies are very different in europe and the united states. it's a two sions tend to reflect that now again these are matters of degree i'm not suggesting that everybody does if it's the. characteristic that the society in general tends to be much more future oriented and what's more confident about what will happen in the future here in europe did you do your research before the great recession because i see a lot of depression among europeans and americans if i go to you david you know i'm going to pick on you here i mean a lot of people say american foreign policy and it doesn't matter if it's a democrat or republican if it's bush or it's obama it's exceptionalism and it's a very negative mean exceptionalism the it even goes as far as what people say is imperialism americans think they're better than everyone else and they know the

future better than everyone else and they know what's better for everyone else i mean that that's in a and it was mentioned by godfrey earlier that a lot of people say this exceptionalism really got magnified even out of control but after the end of the cold war because of the only being the only superpower in the world. well i think that i think the united states has been a positive force for mankind and i think that the world with the united states in a leadership role is a world that's moving in the direction of greater prosperity and greater freedom for people now that does not mean that the united states hasn't made mistakes mistakes and it does not mean that the united states should should go it alone but clearly there are countries that exhibit leadership there are countries that exhibit a desire to join consensus in their countries and leaders who seem to want to frustrate consensus so i think that the u.s. foreign policy while not perfect has really been

a very positive force and has been quite the stinks from there you know leadership leading leading countries in the twentieth century ok the first century you know what i mean peter a lot of people would say is that you know the united states will join in organisations that it's. its purpose is. protocol is one of them not joining the international criminal court i mean this is a exceptionalism in a negative way in the eyes of many people in the world where the united states if it can't control the game it won't play. i think that's true the united states does calculate its national self-interest in deciding what to do and what not to do i think every state does that and it's probably it's probably a universal characteristic of political systems and in terms of kioto in the international criminal court you have to assess each of those positions their merits there are very strong reasons why the united states resisted the kyoto

protocol and there are strong reasons why the u.s. has declined to join the criminal court one could disagree with those and you know that's a legitimate argument but that we're guided by in writing self-interest i think is . it is in do but it will be ok but i mean this is what's here this is what's so interesting it is already a game of go ahead go ahead jump in i started a fight you can continue it go ahead are you going to godfrey going to leave it there this is what so this is i i agree with what peter said this is what's so interesting is that when the united states gets behind something or or builds consensus poor a common good that common good is also in our national interests so when we oppose something out of national interest reasons it kind of makes people think that all we're about is our national interest i think that what's different is that is that there is a a mix of idealism in riyadh politic on our foreign policy that in many ways but not

exclusively in many ways is uniquely american and has set us up in a perfect situation since since world war one to really build consensus around greater freedom and greater prosperity ok and that means invading countries without a u.n. resolution also i got for you go ahead ahead go. well i'm i'm not in the business of saying that the united states has not done many positive things i think the united states for example a great role in the defeat of nazi germany and we can all be very glad that said that i'll give you a very good example i was on a a radio discussion as it happened a while ago when i made the point that while the united states played a very important part in defeat in nazi germany to the british empire which most americans value valiantly disapproved of and so to the soviet union which even more americans disagreed with the american academic program just simply thought i was

talking nonsense it was a completely new idea to that that the great britain or the the soviet union played a role in fighting nazi germany that's what i mean by except that i think you should tax the united states for every stupid thing that an academic says he said was stupid thing well i mean i think it's ok. well thank you very much more than exaggerate has to ever being a very good point because you have no policy is formed i mean godfrey brings up an excellent point here i mean the number how many people actually know the role in the united states the role of the soviet union in the second world war and if they did know they would understand how russia is feels about its neighborhood in nato expansion it would explain a lot of things russia's act behavior which seemed so much more rational if americans actually knew history that's very important i'm sorry david you were getting there just. by serving. american know as much about history as possible

all right i think that things and i mean a controversial and. let me just say one thing about american foreign policy which is that it is it is infused with david said with a kind of idealism and more hourly which certainly isn't. alone it's that is to say that it's self-interest is that it's dominant but it does define self-interest in moralistic ways and that can lead to great tragedies and mistakes as well as great mentors and triumphs ok david we were before we go to the break another example all right i got to go ahead and we're going to david go ahead real quick to show you go to the bread yeah until you got woodrow wilson in one thousand nine hundred nine hundred nineteen woodrow wilson could not open his mouth without saying that the united states alone had no selfish interests in the war in theory actually yes because the united states had the greatest interest of all which is

that of the emerging from the war as the richest and most powerful nation in the world all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on american exceptionalism stay with arkie. can. still. the are. the lips pts

to. smother. mother. her. plans to close up to him was in the cool gum region mum influx from all over the world so i have a few centimeters to this alcoholics this time archie goes to the on the regent. for the cold war still gets people high costs for an ancient tribe fights to save its culture the cranes are protected in the first the official make sure it's a city employee just seemed such a close up on the car to. smudge the the slowest so the it's

the first splendid welcome back to cross talk i feel about remind you we're talking about american exceptionalism today the slump the the slowest sled but before it let's see what russians think about the us. americanism there isn't all ideology morning revolution there being over the us exceptionalism implies the country is qualitatively different from other nations but is this concept why both today with the years dominance on the decline and other countries on the rise as well should americans rethink their exceptionalism the russian public opinion research center good citizens attitude towards the united states fifty nine percent of the respondents said they have positive feelings and another twenty seven percent feel negative and that's why many of the question remains whether any country should think of itself as

exceptional back to ok david i'd like to go to you but and i'd like to everyone keep a thought in mind as david because they would tell you when you got a three point three i think was mandolin albright said the united states stands taller so we can see farther that is a very arrogant statement and is not taken very well around the world so go ahead david. first of all you have someone from her i mean you've said. i'd like to i'd like to go to godfrey's point about woodrow wilson the united states it was a result of world war two one of the united states came out as a pretty predominant power but it was not wilson campaigned about keeping neutral there was a huge debate united states we weren't prepared and it was a tragic result of the ravages of world war one on europe that the united states did come out as a more dominant power relative to the destruction of europe after world war one but

look what happened after world war one look what happened after world war two the united states' role in rebuilding other countries other former enemies was specific and peter i think i think obviously we should all learn more about history but i would say that that policymakers in the united states who thought about the importance of protecting the sovereignty of russia's neighbors who thought about the importance of nato enlargement knew well the massive contribution of the citizens of the soviet union during world war two and knew well of the ravages that stalin brought on russia's neighbors afterwards and i think that those two things made the importance of what president bush and clinton and george w. bush talked about as far as a importance of a europe whole free and at peace and the exciting thing the third point the exciting thing about about the united states not having is far of a distance between its leadership in other countries is all these other countries are rising up to have a stronger voice and to take

a greater responsibility because i do think united states is exceptional it has a big role to play in the united states and with that comes a great responsibility ok godfrey i mean i guess i'd like to jump in here going. in the wall here in addition. ok in addition to the examples of world war one and world war two in the post. recoveries facilitated by the united states you also have nato was mentioned and the e.u. is also a project that benefited a lot i think from from american policy and then finally there's the world trading regime which is a very important institution for living together disparate. societies an economy in the u.s. played a leading role in all of those except obviously for the e.u. which you. played a facilitator of but certainly certainly did. so that's one thing the second thing is that the fact that

a statement is arrogant. that it causes negative reactions around the world does not mean that it's false. mean that children said in a different way unless. you know assertive or aggressive way but it doesn't mean that it's false. the third thing to say is that let me jump in here a bit we ok if i can just say something about woodrow wilson i mean would your wilson said in a speech in philadelphia if there is such a thing as being too proud to fight it was not too proud to attack mexico twice and in fact he did get involved in one but what he did do was to suggest that the rest of the world must adopt an ideas in detail even when they were conscious of the interests of other people that is the cold war those ideas that they were what were those ideas they were personal freedom they were they were well they're going to david here we go you know we have to invade countries to make them free oh my

goodness you know i'm just really since you know the people of iraq you know they don't all agree with that statement i wouldn't trust a public opinion poll coming from their afghanistan is well ok so i mean i don't i mean how can we still say these kind of you know a statement like that is because of the end of the cold war and the arrogance of exceptionalism david in american. policies blinded by this exceptionalism and and gives rise to many people around the world to this day i mean here we are you know it's still nothing's off the table let's go to war against iran i mean this constant thought of you know go to war and go to war it's all because we're such an exceptional people that we know the truth of the world it's ridiculous it's dishonest i know that's not the reason i was here always neighbors lebanese it was . well you know i think that my my whole position is that i think it's important not to believe things that are not wholly true it is not the case

that woodrow wilson offered to bring personal freedoms that there were two principles two principles if you like ideological principles and the fourteen points one was not purely and ancient issue. of american self interest which was so-called freedom of the seas which was a way of undermining specifically british advantages and the other was open covenants open me arrived at which i think most people now are entirely in favor of but it was not about bringing personal freedom to the people so that was a little sick to an extent i. got faith you can find a university there in oxford i would suggest that you dig up the fourteen points i would suggest that you try and look at all the woodrow wilson center and i got part of it well i'm going to hear what i think is important and i don't have that for you because i read the whole book about a child put it on and that. was an emotional one hundred year old how dare you suggest how dare you suggest i was told by the fourteen points without

having with them because he's it's american exceptionalism and smart peter and in new york i have. i think it's not very useful to get hung up on speeches that were made by a president a hundred years ago the question is the war on the long arc of history and in the long arc of history america has been a very. very important force for good in the world with lots of mistakes along the way lots of tragedies that we have helped to create but in the on balance i think it's impossible to make the case that we have not been a very important force for progressive ideals all right let's change gears here you've got of course i'm not saying anything of the kind if you regret not because i read the fourteen points if you read my book you'll find i got i did my way again and again and again to list the ninety many ways in which the united states had

a positive effect and what i'm just saying that many things are believed to be cannot be true all right gentlemen let's kind of shakespeare's if you want to make one more point in foreign policy i'd like to look internally go ahead david that's the test what i think what i think we could we could agree upon is there has been there has been points where the united states has built great consensus and move things forward by by example and i think what is the frustration is that there is coming across the idea of too much lecturing of saying the way a country another country should behave without people seeing the united states behave in such such a way i think that's what god was getting to so there's definitely a examples of where the united states has made mistakes mistakes and where the national interest was probably contrary to to a particular country's interest but i think as paul in new york said here in new york said i think the united states has been a forceful positive force in mankind and i think that we can do

a lot to enhance our own image as living by that example. and trying to build greater consensus where countries that that are are contrary to that consensus stand out a little bit more than when i could have any consensus on this program or gemini to change gears a little bit here. exceptionalism yes united states is exceptional because of its prison inmate population is quite exceptional death penalty not too many how countries in the world have that exceptionally bad health care maybe that will change social inequality public education none of these things are particularly proud beacons in american society right now if you compared to other countries i go to peter on the out there i mean all the things that we used to be so proud of in the united states there are a lot of them are lagging and blocking very badly. i would agree with that. and i would say as. we say in our book that excessive exceptionalism has

two sides of the coin there are some very bad ways in which we are exceptional as well as many good ways so i would not contest that at all and what i would say is that the united states is unusually. it's usually strong in its self-criticism. for all the arrogance it may be perceived abroad the united states the mescal is a very very self-critical people and so the the the processes the political processes for remedying these ills are very very robust ok godfrey wanted to me i totally agree that i just wanted to mention a very interesting book by a young american historian called peter baldwin in which he an enormous enormous theater shows that in many many parameters the united states now and she lies not at the top or the bottom but somewhere in the middle between developing countries and that's if you like a concrete way of suggesting my thesis which is not that ever these bad about you

know it's good god no but it is the united states is a country like others in many ways very stronger than many many ways a better place for people to live in than some but it is not exceptional. let me give you the last word day i would say in some respects it is exceptional particularly with regard to its religious characteristics its attitudes toward immigration its suspicion of centralized power those are those are unusual if not unique creatures in the western in the western political tradition as institutionalized today for freedom as a german here david we've run out of time thank you for a very interesting discussion many thanks to my guests to be in copenhagen new york in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us you darkie see you next time and remember a prostitute. came.