this is artsy international from moscow i'm kevin being with us all top stories the u.s. congress is getting set to vote now in the last minute deal between republicans and democrats to raise the debt ceiling and avoid default but critics say the compromise doesn't solve america's financial problems and its reputation is going to up for a. meantime the u.s. and the e.u. stepped up their push for sanctions against the syrian government for a crackdown on protesters reportedly left more than one hundred people that moscow

says violence on the side of the country's conflict is not acceptable. egyptian troops clash with protesters in cairo as military police move in to break up a rally hundreds of demonstrators encounter in tahrir square for weeks now that i'm on the fast of case of change of the federal response to the uprising. programs continue up next american exceptionalism is just a self-serving myth well that's what people of his guests talk about cross-talk just half a minute away. it used to be an ideal place for a holiday but it won't change in a moment. the

wounds of war are still visible. the republic is not only relieved but also shaping the future. you can. follow in welcome to crossfire crime futile about just how exceptional american exceptionalism goes to the very foundation of how most americans see their country's history and place in the world is there any truth to this worldview or is it just a myth. you can. start. to discuss the meaning of american exceptionalism i'm joined by david merkel in copenhagen he is a former deputy assistant secretary of state in the administration of george w.

bush in oxford we go to godfrey hard thing from oxford university and author of the myth of american exceptionalism and in new york we cross to peter shock he is a professor at yale law school and coeditor of understanding america the anatomy of an exceptional nation and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want since you wrote a book on it i'd like to go to godfrey first in oxford you are quite open out there it's a myth why is that a myth well first. well a myth does not mean that everything about it is untrue it is an idea or a story which is partially true and not of the same turns in the book is that it's not a good thing to believe things which are not wholly true now they're basically two parts to my thesis one is that historically. people in the united states

exaggerated how different they are and how outside how exceptional to history and that if he has children or not it's in many many important ways as being part of larger movements larger ideas of the protestant reformation the enlightenment all kinds of political and legal ideas which came from europe but also such great historical movements as the competition between the british and french and in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries industrialisation the industrial revolution all of these things so the present united states is somehow created by only american events and ideas such as you know massachusetts puritanism or projects and turns out you know the frontier seems to me to be distorting history that's the one idea the second idea which is probably more controversial is the idea that somehow since the end of the cold war and

exceptionalism become more nationalistic more aggressive and more of a problem for the rest of the world well if i go to you peter i mean a lot of people see american exceptionalism as a problem from americans also i mean how do you reflect what we've got he just said because he basically did deflates it or diminishes it is that america is just an extension of the european experience in many different ways though you could say they go republican ideas came to the fore there but in any other ways are americans exaggerating who they are and what they are. well i don't know you know it's very much a matter of degree no sensible person would imagine that the american culture began in seven hundred seventy six and didn't have important roots and in europe of course it did. the question really is whether the united states has developed a culture and a political system an economic system that is sufficiently different from european

countries in particular in some other countries as well. we could think of it. as very distinctive characteristics of a of a society and i think that's undoubtedly true there are a number of respects in which we differ very decidedly from from europe to use the most obvious comparison first is that we are a very. as societies go we are very. attractive to immigrants and we generally receive immigrants in a very in a very dynamic way and in very large numbers and that has shaped almost everything else about our society ok well savingly demographically we're very different than europe we have a growing population part of that is because of immigration but a part of it's also because americans tend to be much more optimistic than europeans are and believe in the future in ways that europeans don't thirdly

there's a very strong as a religious heritage character and says we just kind of exaggerate it's true is that i mean that how do you know how optimistic europeans take it it's they say. well we have servant we have survey evidence we have survey evidence that suggests that people's attitudes toward the future towards their ability to control their destinies are very different in europe and the united states and the institutions tend to reflect that now again these are matters of degree i'm not suggesting that everybody since the. characteristic that the society in general tends to be much more future oriented and what's more confident about what will happen in the future here in europe did you do your research before the great recession because i see a lot of depression among europeans and americans if i go to you david you know i'm going to pick on you here i mean a lot of people say american foreign policy and it doesn't matter if it's a democrat or republican if it's bush or it's obama it's exceptionalism and it's

a very negative i mean exceptionalism they get it even goes as far as what people would say is imperialism americans think they're better than everyone else and they know the future better than everyone else and they know what's better for everyone else i mean that that's in a and it was mentioned by godfrey earlier that a lot of people say this exceptionalism really got magnified out even out of control but after the end of the cold war because of the only being the only superpower in the world. well i think that i think the united states has been a positive force for mankind and i think that the world with the united states in a leadership role is a world that's moving in the direction of greater prosperity and greater freedom for people now that does not mean the united states hasn't made mistakes mistakes and it does not mean the united states should should go it alone but clearly there are countries that exhibit leadership there are countries that exhibit a desire to join consensus in their countries and leaders who seem to want to

frustrate consensus so i think that the u.s. foreign policy while not perfect has really been a very positive force and has been quite distinct from other you know leadership leading leading countries in the twentieth century ok the first century you know but i mean peter a lot of people would say is that you know the united states will join in organisations that it suits its its purpose is. protocol is one of them not joining the international criminal court i mean this is a exceptionalism in a negative way in the eyes of many people in the world where the united states if it can't control the game it won't play. i say that's true the united states does calculate its national self-interest in deciding what to do and what not to do i think every state does that and it's probably it's probably a universal characteristic of political systems and in terms of kioto in the international criminal court you have to assess each of those positions on their

merits there are very strong reasons why the united states resisted the kyoto protocol and there are strong reasons why the u.s. has declined to join the criminal court you want to disagree with those and that you know that's a legitimate argument but that we're guided by in writing self-interest i think is . it is in do what it will but i mean this is what's here this is what's so interesting it is already a game of go ahead go ahead jump in i started a fight you can continue it go ahead are you going to godfrey go easy of it this is what so this is i i agree with what peter said this is what's so interesting is that when the united states gets behind something or or builds consensus poor a common good that common good is also in our national interests so when we oppose something out of national interest reasons it kind of makes people think that all we're about is our national interest i think that what's different is that is that

there is a a mix of idealism and ryall paula take on our foreign policy that in many ways but not exclusively in many ways is uniquely american and has as set us up in a perfect situation since since world war one to really build consensus around greater freedom and greater prosperity ok and that means invading countries without a u.n. resolution but also i godfrey go ahead ahead go. well i'm i'm not in the business of saying that the united states has not done many positive things i think the united states for example is a great role in the defeat of nazi germany and we can all be very sad but i'll give you a very good example i was on a radio discussion as it happened a while ago when i made the point that while the united states played a very important part in defeating nazi germany to the british empire which most americans value valiantly disapproved of and so to the soviet union which even more

americans disagreed with the american academic program just simply thought i was talking nonsense it was a completely new idea that the the great britain or the soviet union played any role in fighting the teacher that's what i mean by except that i don't think you should tax the united states for every stupid thing that america demick says we say a lot of stupid things i mean i think it's ok. i think i'm very disappointed she has to err he's being a very good point because of how policy is formed i mean godfrey brings up an excellent point here i mean the number how many people actually know the role in the united states of role of the soviet union in the second world war and if they did they would understand how russia is feels about its neighborhood in nato expansion it would explain a lot of things russia's act behavior would seem so much more irrational if americans actually knew history that's very important i'm sorry david you were

getting there just on the do you think. you know when american or as much about history as possible right now i do think that things and i mean a controversial and but let me just say one thing about american foreign policy which is that it is it is infused with david said with a kind of idealism and more hourly which certainly isn't. alone it's that is to say that it's self-interest is it's dominant but it does define a self-interest in moralistic ways and that can lead to great tragedies and mistakes as well was great ventures and triumphs ok david quick word before we go to the break ok another example all right thank you ed anybody david go ahead will make sure you go to the right yeah i'm talking about woodrow wilson in one thousand nine hundred nineteen woodrow wilson could not open his mouth without saying that the united states alone had no selfish interests in the war. in theory it should be

ok because the united states of the greatest interest of all which is that of emerging from the well as the rich is seen as powerful nation in the world all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on american exceptionalism stay with arctic. can see. her. to eat. the substance to. the

best. i'll. read you the latest in science and technology from the realm of. the future. to. welcome back to crossfire you know look i'll remind you we're talking about

american exceptionalism today. but before let's see what russians think about the u.s. american that is an all ideology morning revolution of the u.s. exceptionalism implies that country is qualitatively different from other nations but is this. today with us don't run on the decline and other countries on the rise as well should americans were think that exceptionalism the russian public opinion research center gave citizens attitude towards the united states the center of the response they have positive feelings and another twenty seven the son feel negative and that's for many the question remains whether any country should think of itself as exceptional. ok david i'd like to give you

a bit and i think everyone keep in mind is david because david said he when he got a three point zero i think was mandel and albright said the united states stands taller so we can see farther that is a very arrogant statement is not taken very well around the world so go ahead david . first of all you have someone from her i mean you just said. i'd like to i'd like to go to to godfrey's point about woodrow wilson. the united states it was a result of world war two war one of the united states came out as a pretty predominant power but it was not wilson campaigned about keeping neutral there was a huge debate united states we weren't prepared and it was a tragic result of the ravages of world war one on europe and the united states did come out as a more dominant power relative to the destruction of europe after world war one but look what happened after world war one look what happened after world war two the united states' role in rebuilding other countries other former enemies was specific

and peter i think i think obviously we should all learn more about history but i would say that the policymakers in the united states who thought about the importance of protecting the sovereignty of russia's neighbors who thought about the importance of nato enlargement knew well the massive contribution of the citizens of the soviet union during world war two and knew well of the ravages that stalin brought on russia's neighbors afterwards and i think that those two things made the importance of what president bush and clinton and george w. bush talked about as far as a importance of a europe whole free and it peace and the exciting thing the third point the exciting thing about about the united states not having this far of a distance between his leadership and other countries is all these other countries are rising up to have a stronger voice and to take a greater responsibility because i do think united states is exceptional it has

a big role to play in the united states and with that comes a great responsibility ok godfrey i mean i guess i'd like to jump in here are going to enable you in addition. ok in addition to the examples of world war one and world war two in the post-war. recoveries facilitated by the united states you also have nato was mentioned and the e.u. is also a project that benefited by a lot i think from from american policy and then finally there's the world trading regime which is a very important institution for knitting together disparate. societies and economies in the u.s. played a leading role in all those except obviously for the e.u. which. it played a facilitator of but certainly certainly did won't. so that's one thing the second thing is that the fact that a statement is arrogant. that it causes negative reactions around the world does

not mean it is false. it may mean that been said in a different way in the west and the west. you know sort of regressive way but it doesn't mean it is force. the third thing to say is look let me jump in here a bit ok if i can just say something about woodrow wilson i mean would you wilson said in a speech in philadelphia that there is such a thing as being too proud to fight it was not too proud to attack mexico twice and in fact he did get involved in one but what he did do was to suggest that the rest of the world must adopt the ideas in detail even when they were country to the interests of other people that is the core of those ideas that they were what were those ideas they were personal freedom they were they were well yeah. i usually have to invade countries to make them free oh my goodness you know i'm just really since you know the people of iraq you know they don't all agree with that statement

i wouldn't trust a public opinion poll coming from their afghanistan is well ok so i mean i don't see how you still say these kind of you know a statement like that is because of the end of the cold war in the arrogance of exceptionalism they even have americans. policies blinded by this exceptionalism and in his wrath to many people around the world to this day i mean here we are you know it's still nothing's off the table let's go to war against iran i mean this constant thunder you know go to war go to war it's all because we're such an exceptional people that we know the truth of the world it's ridiculous it's dishonest and i know that's not true. and i was telling his neighbors when he was really. well you know i think and i hope position is that i think it's important not to believe things not only true it is not the case that woodrow wilson offered to bring personal freedoms that there were two principles two principles if you know ideological principles and the fourteen point one was

the one purely and ancient issue. of american self interest which was so-called freedom of the seas which was a way of undermining specifically british advantages and the other was open covenants arrived which i think most people now are entirely in favor of but it was not about bringing personal freedom to the people so that would go to an extent. by godfrey if you can find a university there in oxford i would suggest that you dig up the fourteen points i would suggest that you try and look at all the woodrow wilson it's nice. to hear what i think is important am i dug up the phone and what i read about book about so don't try and put me down in that paragraph where i think we really were as if not worse and worse for her year old barry you suggest how dare you suggest that we talk about the fourteen points without having with them because it's american exceptionalism and smart peter and in new york i had. i think

it's not very useful to get hung up on speeches that were made by a president a hundred years ago the question is the wrong the long arc of history and in the long arc of history america has been a very. very important force for good in the world with lots of mistakes along the way lots of tragedies that we have helped to create but. on balance i think it's impossible to make the case that we have not been a very important force for progressive ideals all right let's change gears for you guys of course i'm not saying anything of the kind. because i read the fourteen points if you read my book you'll find i got out of my way again and again and again to listen and then in many ways in which the united states had a positive effect but i'm just saying that many things are believed by americans we cannot be true all right gentlemen that's kind of changing here so if you want to

make one more point in foreign policy i'd like to look internally go ahead david that's the test what i what i think what i think we could we could agree upon is there has been there has been points where the united states has built great consensus and move things forward by by example and i think what is the frustration is that there is coming across the idea of too much like sharing of saying the way a country another country should behave without people saying the united states behave in such a such a way i think that's what godfrey's getting to so there's definitely a examples of where the united states has made mistakes mistakes and where the national interest was probably contrary to to a particular country's interest but i think as paul in new york or new york said i think the united states has been a force for positive force in mankind and i think that we can do a lot to enhance our own image as living by that example. and trying to build

greater consensus where countries that are contrary to that consensus stand out a little bit more than when i could have any consensus on this program here gentlemen i can change gears a little bit here. exceptionalism yes the united states is exceptional because of its prison inmate population is quite exceptional death penalty not too many how countries in the world have that exceptionally bad health care maybe that will change social inequality public education none of these things are particularly proud beacons in american society right now he compared to other countries and i go to peter on the out there i mean all the things that we used to be so proud of in the united states there are a lot of them are lagging and by doing very badly. i would agree with that. and i would say as as we say in our book that excessive exceptionalism has consigned to the core and there are some very bad ways in which we're exceptional

as well as many good ways so i would not contest that at all what i would say is that the united states is unusually. it's usually strong in its self-criticism. for all the arrogance or maybe perceived the broad the united states the mescal is a very very self-critical people and so the the the process sees the political processes for remedying these ills are very very robust ok godfrey i want you to me i totally agree that i just wanted to mention a very interesting book by a young american historian called peter baldwin in which an enormous length enormous detail shows that in many many parameters the united states now achieved lies not of the top or at the bottom but somewhere in the middle between developing countries and that's if you like a concrete waves to to see my thesis which is not that everything's bad about the united states good god no but it is the united states is a country like others in many ways stronger than many many ways

a better place for people to live in than some but it is not exceptional. let me give you the last word there i would say in some respects it is exceptional particularly with regard to its religious characteristics its attitudes toward immigration its suspicion of centralized power those are those are unusual with not unique features in the western in the western political tradition as institutionalized today i'm afraid and i have a german here david we've run out of time thank you for a very interesting discussion many thanks to my guest in copenhagen new york in oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching as you darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk. and. if. you.

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