if you just joined us a very warm welcome all to you live here moscow top stories this hour it's really begins crisis talks with the e.u. over its mounting debt problems sparking concerns it could be on the path to a police don't buy enough the prime minister to macy's vacation some months of the worsening fiscal crisis in his country. egypt imposed an ailing president hosni mubarak goes on trolley car on charges of corruption who can protest isn't fed result rising in tandem with the fatal clashes today outside the call between his

supporters and opponents of. the u.n. security council calls for the end to violence in syria and i just all parties to engage in political dawdled one hundred feet from the center of being killed in the fighting between government forces and the opposition of the past few days. i'll be about one more news in less than thirty minutes from now in the meantime peter viles discuss why the west is so determined to force democracy on the arab world that's cross-talk coming your way it's a few moments. we'll . bring you the latest in science and technology from the inside. we've got the future of coverage. can you still.

follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle is outside democracy promotion an oxymoron what is america's track record in the arab world and is invoking security interest over democracy the greatest haven for tyrants. can. they discuss democracy promotion i'm joined by katie ali in paris he is a writer and filmmaker and i will risk with we go to jeff purdue he is a post-doctoral fellow and out a risk with university and author of american foreign policy and postwar reconstruction comparing japan in iraq and in durham we cross to bruce generals and he's a professor of public policy and political science at duke university and another member of our cross talk e-mail on the how go all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want take i'd like to go to you

first in paris over the last two weeks. we're seeing events that we've never seen before in the arab world i liken it to the end of the soviet union it is a world history or storage moment as we're doing this program events are books of folding extremely almost out of control in egypt so i ask you what is america's track record in promoting democracy and expression is hot area right now in north africa and i'd like to name a few places to nisha egypt lebanon jordan where there is democracy but it's not recognize hamas hizbollah so it's a mixed game what's the moxy isn't a marsh it's not recognize at least by the united states and its allies and then the united states has been a huge impediment to democracy in the arab world since its inception since independence so what is its track record. its track record is very

negative as many serious american historians that make themselves throughout the cold war period when the begin to me was communism the united states not just in the middle east but also in south america it was prepared to tolerate tyrants to creators butchers of their people because it's so very cross with the end of the cold war. humanitarianism became one of the ideological pillars accept in those countries where it wasn't convenient so we've seen in the middle east in particular. and dictatorship in egypt which appears to be collapsing as we speak which has been there for the last twenty five to thirty years we have seen regimes over twenty years long in the countries tunis morocco algeria we've seen the toleration of a completely authoritarian brutal monarchy in saudi arabia and jordan

itself has been reduced to the status of an israeli american protectorate and iraq has been occupied. by the occupation of iraq with very little to do with democracy to force it have a great deal to do with the establishment of us again really now we have a waiver for of world sweeping the arab world you talk about it was reminiscent of the fall of the soviet union i'm not so sure because that the mass involvement in that by and large was limited it reminds me more off the wave of revolutions that took place in europe in eight hundred forty year revolutions for democracy eight hundred forty eight auto revolutions against autocracy democratic revolutions trying to find a different way of governance and that's that is what we are seeing very courageously. it's very interesting the last i do and you know eighteen forty eight

are interesting but it was a strong reaction eight hundred forty eight jeff if i can go to you a few days ago hillary clinton the u.s. secretaries became out and said that a country like egypt a great country she said egypt needs more democratic reform isn't that a bit rich after thirty years of paying off the egyptians in this sixty billion dollars basically without any kind of accountability i mean again you know and if i can expand upon that watching c.n.n. and b.b.c. they're just cheering this on when those governments were all at the very the pillars of supporting this very horrible regime and people that knew anything about the regime just knew how terrible it was and now we're turning around saying we're so happy what's happening it's hypocrisy is just outrageous i wouldn't say so i think that when you talk about democracy promotion you need to adopt the spectacle you need to look at it from a political perspective because most of the values let's say norms carried by democracy and the perspective of war and let's say material interests or security

interests or economic interests and what i'm trying to say here is that. during the cold war and even after that there is still seems to me there seems to be a paradox in supporting or let's say be friendly to non-democratic regimes while at the same time promoting democracy in these very conferees. through various programs of democracy assistance usually implemented by american governments and non-governmental organizations i think that if you look at this from and you take into consideration that you deal with two different time scales one is the economy and the security where you need to address very immediate concerns issues if you want to and the only one is more in the longer run where you tend to what you want to do is to try to see values and norms. values and norms in this case and you hope

that these will be shared by this in the society and eventually political society of this not democracy christian and little by little you know you could argue and i think that what we've witnessed as little by little geese and not receive assistance program starts with fruits and whatever was did we see that they did all they receive that all in tunisia i mean i can a free radical level i'm going to say what you're talking about but my goodness i mean there you know it was not too long ago the denali was you know he was a guest in the white house and he's called a great friend of the united states ok i mean really i mean it's still a bit rich if i can use that term again right here bruce if i can go to you i mean all of america's friends are in this work and i just say something all right go ahead finish it because i want to go to something very quickly go ahead if when ali you've been ali was still such a big friend of the united states or from you know with the western world generally speaking you probably if it was all about supporting. authoritarian regimes in the

name of security interests or economy interests then now you wouldn't be in the white would be in washington and on the parties ok well sort out well that seems to be the ultimate safe haven for will. probably other dictators going there is go bruce if i can go to you i mean you can you have a dual policy like that i think in period sounds very nice but if you look at weeki leaks and you look at these other sources of information i mean the united states was it's going to be just stay with the people you know you stay with the devil you know walk away and that's exactly what they did with anita and then they turn around and their entire democracy project blows up on them in lebanon though it's again against the will of the people there clearly i don't care what people think about hezbollah it is a popular. political party in the country it's up for the people to decide and not again hillary clinton dictating what kind of democracy should people should have because everything the united states has done in that region last forty years is just create extremism. now you look i think you're then if i had some good points

i'm not sure if i agree with the way that you're portraying i mean there's no question you know that the united states hasn't lived up to this great espousal of always being for democracy you know the reality for any country whether it's today or historically and you know has had a balance off the principles you stand for the security interests that you have and the like you know and what we've been seeing i think is as as as your previous guest was saying was part of what's happening in egypt and to sort of support it was happening in tunisia was in fact fed you know by this development of civil society by n.g.o.s not just american many indigenous many european as well that helped to develop the networks you know at the same time you're right that the united states was sort of still keeping our support with as it was often said you know they may be an s.o.b. but there are s.o.b and the problem is there's this old expression you know those who make reform impossible make revolution inevitable you know and a certain set you see that playing out. this wasn't predicted by experts everybody

knew egypt was unstable but there's not an expert out there journalist academic intelligence person whatever who said that things were going to really blow up in tunisia and egypt now. and i think that we really have to see where they go people are demanding i think three things they're demanding greater freedom both for their individual lives and for ability to affect their government their protesting its massive corruption the mubarak regime have an hourly regime and they want to canonic opportunity this is mostly you know young males out there who want to opportunity in their lives the reality is that you know you mentioned hizbollah as well has a lot of popular support in certain segments of lebanon there's no question about it but you know the notion that somehow they're going to represent all the people that i can impose themselves and i'm not quite confident about that either in the same is true and of hamas which they originally wanted selection. on the basis of

speaking to the corruption of the palestinian authority you know the injustice is the economic problems that were there but then when they began to rule they ruled with an iron fist of their own oppressive their own people so what we criticize with united states is doing we shouldn't sort of make out is some you know glorifying force a lot of these other groups they've got their flaws as well ok tell me if i go to you i mean still at the same time i mean what is the reputation of the united states as we go through this a grudge rate transition here i mean do the people in the region look to the americans as being thomas jefferson you know i mean great supporters of of democracy out there supporting their dictators for so many big decades. well not in the arab world and certainly not in south america where you were also had a wave of democracy over the last ten to fifteen years which has brought new governments and new social movements and to changing the relationship of forces there quite decisively if i can just sort of come back to one point it's not

a question of whether we like has a polo or whether we like or agree with every dalton comma hamas or idealism that's not the point the point is permitting the people in that region to decide what's happened when hamas won the elections in palestine sanctions were imposed on it its money was stopped and the west refused to recognize a democratic election because they were hoping to push the p.l.o. through and we now know why with the publication of the palestinian papers that the p.l.o. leader should put us in the puppet of the united states and now we know also viz released to such a disgusting extent that it's horrified people in the arab world and so be actively promoted and tried to defend a corrupt palestinian leadership against hamas even though hamas had one then they tried to destroy hamas as they did hezbollah by inquiry can very sorry to hear

a ranting i wish you were going to go to a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on exporting democracy with our. stories. you can. download the official ulti application to your by phone or like pod touch from the i.q. substring. jollity life on the go. the calendar month parties mine. now in the coming. to. come. for the. we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on. wealthy british scientists.

but i'd rather go. to. the market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy is a report on our team. to keep. the us. looking. welcome back to crossfire your little three minute we're talking about the so-called democracy came to st. ok. but first let's see what democracy means to russians and marcus and for all democratic values as probing all over the world some countries dubbed them

voluntary and others are simply imposed by outside forces the public opinion agency about us and also questions what democracy means to them the cannot present seen as a kind on the prosperity thirteen percent as freedom of speech order and stability garner thirty seven percent many regard democracy as truth lawfulness and direct elections so the latest events in tunisia make us wonder if west so-called democracy industry doesn't really. or its own interests to create. right jeff and i to go to you in one of the things that happened when one of the reasons why ben ali was such a. big friend of the americans in the west in general and any and we can look at what's going on in egypt and other countries in the region is because they're stanch allies on the war against terror ok and that's always top of mind here and in the the nonsense that spewed out about here's terror and that's terror and you

know just terrifying publics and western media and it goes on all of the time and there these people are you know they may not be you know thomas jeffersons but you know they are still going to be on our side and isn't this really being shown is a complete exaggeration now because these tyrants created a fundamentalist group of people that may be inclined to terrorism and things like that i mean the lack of supporting our own ideals and values have actually created these so-called threats against us. i think we talking about two different historical structures as well the immediacy of the cold war or let's say. what the united states needed to do during the cold war was to contain the west in the u.s.s.r. in the region and hands you know started to kind of. less than friendly regime or well thought of another country christians in the case of. what's going on the mission right now i think that we should look at this from

a more modern perspective if you keep talking about the past in the whole body wars and so i mean we never you know i'm talking about today i'm going about george bush's war on terror and it seems like obama is the accepted it is well no i'm talking about what's going on today not the cold war. ok so well in this case i would say that there is a clear progression in the obama administration about democracy promotion and the discourse is not linked anymore to the war on terror of course you still have references to what is called a democracy is theory and the fact that democracies don't go to war with each other . no would it mean that these emerging democracies in the middle east would be friendly to the united states i think like here in this case history might look like in favor of the united states and what we might see is the emergence of of some different models of democracy which will not be the liberal democratic model which we know in the west with an emphasis on elections essentially creating

a procedures and structures favoring elections between competing elites favoring the individual freedoms we're going to be trying to say here is that democracies very contested as a concept there is more than one type of democracy and that's in order to sort of guess the outcome of democracy. it is essential to look at the realities affecting the temperature as the democrat is in nations so where democracy is taking root and look at you know the realities there and how democracy can adapt if you want to and we have competing models talk a lot about islamic law islam democracy. and so would that mean that we live in well i mean i mean jeff jeff i mean you're right i mean this again it's very academic but i mean under eight years of bush and then in under two years of obama we still see american understanding of democracy we're going to go to bruce here on this one to protect american national interests ok it's a cover it's a cover for it sure it's

a cover to protect american interests that's why you know it could it's galling that hillary clinton will come out and say we need more democracy in egypt why couldn't she say that when she became secretary of state why can a secretary of state said that twenty five or thirty years ago. if you can see the difference between obama and bush you know you're not really looking close. to the reaction today they're not now washington to the region ok i think they raised more or less the same one hundred eighty degrees but but but there are significant differences but i come back to a point that terry gilliam it has it's an important point you know during the cold war one of the huge mistakes that the united states made as we did his we kind of worked with or against this so the so-called third world was we lump everything together as communism and more incidents of marxism and we didn't see the way that nationalism and local factors and culture and all those things entered and so in brazil i've been back and forth quite a few times i mean for you know for the president of brazil who came into office

feared as a great leftist to have emerged with eighty percent popularity in his own country when he leaves office you know most leaders around the world would die for that sort of popularity and he demonstrated the demonstrated that he that he was program sealion interests and he was prepared to work for them and not always agree with the united states and elsewhere and the challenge we face i think in the arab and islamic world is very similar ok there are elements in my view you know. jihad of sixty most groups that frankly don't have the interests of the people you know the best measure people are all on their minds but with a nice nice to do do is to figure out how to have relations with different forms of political islam i think in both tunisia and egypt ultimately you know whether it's the muslim brotherhood in egypt or some of the political islam parties that have been trying to stamp out by the dictator tunisia they're going to emerge as part of the mix and we really need to figure out ways you know to work with them because neither tunisia or egypt are these uprisings that this point at least anti-american

this is not iran one nine hundred seventy eight strewn on the street may well go in that direction if the u.s. has some of the things you're saying that that it's doing but right now i think the obama administration you know is trying it's a very tricky balance and you can find you know contradict. fine but they're trying you know as they have since the president came into office when he went to cairo and he gave a speech for an awful lot of stuff going on there that doesn't make the headlines but has been working with civil society groups and other groups in egypt and elsewhere to try to develop you know their ability to to be part of the political process and i say we get the balance right but they say that it's all you know just about you know standing with their carriers i think right now this administration is trying to change it and change it in a way that leads to things that are really in the interest of the people because the united states can't control everything that happens in these countries in one direction or any other entity a lot of for these libby can influence because of their power and leaders take i

think you had it if you had your head down i was wondering if you if you were bored by a conversation or you were exasperated no no i'm not bored you know where are those where are those see differences well those see differences i basically see essential continue to be between the bush and obama administrations both domestically and in terms of foreign policy i don't think all that much has changed except for the mood music and the record in terms of what is concretely being done in different parts of the world in effect on this found which we haven't mentioned obama is actually escalate the war there have been more grown attacks on pakistan during the obama than in the entire eight years of the previous administration so one's got to preserve a balance and not be taken in. by the right trip which which is being thrown around

i think essential in what is going on in the middle east today is sixteen lean port and if not bought a false it will be a heavy blow for the united states regardless of who takes over because egypt was absolutely central to u.s. policy in the. region in order to keep these rallies happy we haven't discussed this state for some reason is important the united states backs it through thick and thin and often american interests get in tangled with what they see as israeli security and close in the region and that is one reason why that region in many many of its intellectuals and civil society groups have been cruelly unhappy that palestine is the one colonial issue from the last century the remains resolved now in terms of political islam there is flarm has all because of the rainbow you can find every parent within the mic world the united states is perfectly happy working

with these myths in turkey who are strong supporters of nature and have been a central pillar of nato i don't think the muslim brotherhood in either region police here will be all that different but what will be different if the demonstrators succeed in toppling mubarak is that egypt will for the first time in years be able egyptians will be able to decide on who they want to were elected battens extremely important and the choice there is much much more different than the choice you have in europe center left center right democrats republicans in the u.s. very little divides them in egypt the gulf between the dictatorship and the people challenging it is huge so it's a very exciting prospect and of course it might well affect u.s. relations with egypt if for instance just on one issue they decide to open the border with gas a they're not going to allow cars or to be trampled exactly in

a jet i mean i i didn't want to go into detail in israel because a well first of all your program on that this week already but i mean again i mean in the course of two weeks we have this these events playing out in egypt we. of events with lebanon i mean the entire security arrangement we need now that states pursued over the last four decades in the greater middle east is in shambles now if in fact a study was said really at the center of american foreign policy interests in the region israel's security it may now be the least secure it's been in a very long time and it's because democracy is the idea and and people took it upon themselves i agree with what we heard earlier it's not anti-american yet we'll see where it goes but when we do hear with the people have to say we could have a very very volatile and we always say volatile to greater middle east if these changes are actually come to fruition true or something that we would call democracy you know the question is that it's not necessarily the case that the

united states and i say should not be putting all our eggs in the mubarak basket there's no question about that and it's not necessarily the case that a new regime would be anti-american ok it really depends how this plays out what the forces are at work and the like but i think that this notion that there's just continuity is kind of if people need i say sometimes they're only reading the right hand pages of a book so a lot of what i'm hearing is just reading the left and i just ok you know the reality is that the reality is that you know this is ministration that the bush administration basically gave the israelis a lot of blank checks ok but i'm going to purchase had some problems is ok. but it's really ok we have to stop on this point gentlemen ok many thanks to my guest today in paris and in wales and in durham and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are can see you next time in remember crosstalk.