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today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. for each day. the lead. can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle is outside democracy promotion an oxymoron what is america's track record in the arab world and is invoking security interest over democracy the greatest haven for tyrants. can.

discuss democracy promotion i'm joined by katie alley in paris he is a writer and filmmaker an arborist with we go to jeff purdue he is a post-doctoral fellow and avarice with university and author of american foreign policy and postwar reconstruction comparing japan and iraq and in durham we cross to bruce generals and he is a professor of public policy and political science at duke university and another member of our cross talk e-mail and a hunger for a gentleman cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to take i think go to you first in paris over the last two weeks. were saying events that we've never seen before in the arab world i liken it to the end of the soviet union it is a world history or storage moment as we're doing this program events are unfolding extremely almost out of control in egypt so i ask you thirty what is america's track record in promoting democracy and expression is hot area right now in north

africa and i'd like to name a few places to me egypt lebanon jordan where there is democracy that is not recognize hamas hizbollah so it's a mixed game. democracy isn't a march it's not recognized at least by the united states and its allies and then the united states has been a huge impediment to democracy in the arab world since its inception since independence so what is its track record. its track record is very negative as many serious american historians that commit themselves through of the cold war period when the begin to me was communism the united states not just in the middle east but also in south america was prepared to tolerate tyrants to as butchers of their people because it's there in cross with the end of the cold war. humanitarianism became one of the ideological pillars except in those countries

where it wasn't convenient so we've seen in the middle east in particular. multichannel dictatorship in egypt which appears to be collapsing as we speak which has been there for the last twenty five to thirty years we have seen regimes over twenty years in the mass rugby in countries tunis and morocco. we've seen the toleration of a completely authoritarian brutal monarchy in saudi arabia jordan itself has been reduced to the status of an israeli american protectorate and iraq has been occupied. by the occupation of iraq had very little to do with democracy of course it had a great deal to do with the establishment of us again really now we have a waiver for a sweeping the arab world you talk about it was reminiscent of the fall of the

soviet union i'm not so sure because that the mass involvement in that by and large was limited it reminds me more of the wave of revolutions that took place in europe in eighteen forty year revolutions for democracy eight hundred forty eight auto revolutions against autocracy democratic revolutions trying to find a different way of governments and that's that is what we are seeing a very good example. it's very interesting that it lasted too long and i think you know eighteen forty eight are interesting but it was a strong reaction eight hundred forty eight jeff if i can go to you a few days ago it would be clinton the u.s. secretary of state came out and said that a country like egypt a great country she said egypt needs more democratic reform isn't that a bit rich after thirty years of paying off the egyptians in the some sixty billion dollars basically without any kind of accountability i mean again you know and if i can expand upon that watching c.n.n. and b.b.c. they're just cheering this on when those governments were all at the very the

pillars of supporting this very horrible regime and people that knew anything about the regime just knew how terrible it was and now we're turning around saying we're so happy what's happening it's hypocrisy is just outrageous. i wouldn't say so i think that's when you talk about democracy promotion you need to do what. you need to look at it from a political perspective responsible values like saying norms carried by democracy and the perspective of war and let's. hear real interest so security interests or economic interests and what i'm trying to say here is that. during the cold war and even after that there is still seem to be this seems like a paradox in supporting let's say be friendly to non-democratic regimes while at the same time promoting democracy in these the same very countries. through various programs of democracy assistance usually implemented by american governments or the

non-governmental organisations i think that if you look at this from and you take into consideration that you deal with two different time scales one is still a kind of me and the security where you need to address very immediate concerns issues if you want to and the only one is more in the longer run where you tend to what you want to do is to try to see values and norms to marketing values and norms in this case and you hope that these will be shared by the syrian society invention the political society all of these not that we're going to christian it's little by little you know you could argue and i think what we've witnessed his little by little gets democracy assistance program started fruits and whatever was we did we see that in egypt did all that we see that at all in tunisia i mean i came out of the radical level i'm going to ask you what you're talking about but my goodness i mean you know it was not too long ago the ben ali was you know he was

a guest in the white house and he's called a great friend of the united states ok i mean really i mean it's still a bit rich if i can use that term again right here bruce if i can go to you i mean all of america's friends are in these or can i just say something all right i had to cut issue with i want to be something very quickly go ahead if when ali you've been ali was still such a big friend of the united states or from you know western world generally speaking you probably if it was all about supporting authoritarian regimes in the name of security interests or economic interests then the nile you wouldn't be in the bike it would be in washington and going to parties ok we'll see if that well that seems to be the ultimate safe haven for it will. so you probably other dictators going there as well bruce if i can go to you i mean you can you have a dual policy like that i think in theory it sounds very nice but if you look at weeki leaks and you look at these other sources of information i mean the united states was it's going to be just stay with the people you know you to stay with the devil you know walk away and that's exactly what they did with tunisia and then

they turn around and their entire democracy project blows up on them in lebannon though it's again against the will of the people there clearly i don't care what people think about has a law it is a popular. political party in the country it's up for the people to decide and not again hillary clinton dictating what kind of democracy should people should have because everything the united states has done in that region last forty years is just create extremism. yeah you look i think your again if i had some good points but i'm not sure if i agree with the way that you're portraying i mean there's no question you know that the united states hasn't lived up to this great espousal have always been for democracy you know the reality for any country whether it's today or historically you know has had a balance off the principles you stand for the security interests that you have in the life you know and what we've been seeing i think is has as you as your previous guest was saying was part of what's happening in egypt and to sort of support it was happening in tunisia was in fact fed you know by this development of civil

society by n.g.o.s not just america in many indigenous many european as well that helped to develop the networks you know at the same time you're right that the united states was sort of still keeping our support with as it was often said you know they maybe s.o.b but there are s.o.v. and the problem is there's this old expression you know those who make reform impossible make revolution inevitable you know in a certain extent you see that playing out. this wasn't predicted by experts everybody knew egypt was unstable but there's not an expert out there journalist academic intelligence person whatever who said that things were going to really blow up in tunisia and egypt now and i think that we really have to see where they go people are demanding i think three things they're demanding greater freedom both for their individual lives and for ability to affect their government their protest against massive corruption the mubarak regime defend ali regime and they want to

kind of a comfort to me this is mostly you know young males out there who want to offer tunis and their allies the reality is that you know you mention hizbullah as well has a lot of popular support in certain segments of lebanon there's no question about it but you know the notion that somehow they're going to represent all the people that i can impose themselves you know i'm not quite confident about that either in the same is true you know if hamas which you originally wanted selection. on the basis of speaking to the corruption of the palestinian authority you know the injustice is the economic problems that were there but then when they began to rule they ruled with an iron fist of their own were pressing their own people so what we criticize with united states is doing we shouldn't sort of make out it's some you know glorifying force a lot of these other groups they've got their flaws as well ok take if i go to you i mean still at the same time i mean what is the reputation of the united states as we go through this a great great transition here i mean do the people in the region look at the

americans as being done thomas jefferson you know i mean great supporters of of democracy after supporting their dictators for so many to get hates. well not in the arab oil but and certainly not in south america where you have also had a wave of democracy over the last ten to fifteen years which has brought new governments and new social movements and to politics changing the relationship of forces there quite decisively if i can just sort of come back to one point it's not a question of whether we like has apolo or whether we like or agree with every doctrine of hamas or idealism that's not the point but the point is permitting the people in that region can decide what's happened when hamas won the elections in palestine sanctions were imposed on it it's money was stopped and the west refused to recognize a democratic election because they were hoping to push the p.l.o. through and we now know why with the publication of the palestinian papers for the

past p.l.o. leadership which was in the pocket of the united states and now we know also of these released to such a disgusting extent that it's horrified people in the arab world and so will be actively promoted and clyde's to defend a corrupt palestinian leadership against hamas even though hamas had one ben they tried to destroy hamas as they did hezbollah and i encouraged them very sorry to have to go i wish you were going to go to a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on exporting democracy stay with.

the people of the united states and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of a. now regime that's threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder is a regime as an active program to acquire and develop nuclear weapons and let there be no doubt about we know for a fact there are let's say. this work is being carried out under the direction of dr david kay respected scientist and former u.n. inspector was leading the weapons search in iraq we are determined to take this apart you have a tremendous a group of dedicated american men and women involved in this with the best assets of the intelligence community and provide. data cheney is not going to be done with this for quite some time david kay wants more time and he says it could take another six to nine months to make a definitive finding ministration is asking congress for hundreds of millions more six hundred million dollars to fund

a continuing search you have not yet shiny pointy things that i would call a weapon before we can draw from conclusions we need to let the iraq survey group complete its work. we were all wrong probably in my judgment and that is most disturbing. sometimes the true patriots takes the unpopular course that helps the country and for the stakes and even if they come this way at least from time to patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels and i think these are scoundrels they have no argument now they have no defense for what they did the country is in a terrible international security situation but i think it's perilous so they're attacking the patriotism of others.

we'll. bring you the latest in science technology from the realm. of the future. thanks. ok. welcome back to crossfire capital about remind you we're talking about the so-called democracy in history. but first let's see what democracy means to russians democracy for all them accredit venues are spreading all over the world some countries adopt them roland

perry and others simply imposed by the outside forces the public opinion agency led by dissent i ask russians what democracy means to them but in that percent as a comic prosperity thirteen percent is freedom of speech order and stability thirty seven percent many regard democracy lawfulness and direct elections so the latest tunisia. so-called democracy doesn't really promote or its own interests but to point. right jeff and i to go to you one of the things that happened when one of the reasons why ben ali was such a big friend of the americans in the west in general and any and we can look at what's going on in egypt and other countries in the region is because they are stanch allies on the war against terror ok and that's always top of mind here and in the the nonsense that spewed out about here's karen that's terribly you know

just terrifying public from western media and it does it all of the time and there these people are you know they may not be you know thomas jeffersons but you know make they're still going to be on our side isn't this really being shown is a complete exaggeration now because these tyrants created. a fundamentalist group of people that may be inclined to terrorism and things like that i mean the law. iraq of supporting our own ideals and values i've actually created these so-called threats against us. what are we talking about two different historical structures as well the immediacy of the cold war what's a. what the united states needed to do during the cold war was to contain the u.s. and in the u.s.s.r. in the region and hands you know started to peddle some less than friendly regime or not well probably not democratic regimes in the case of gnarly and what's

going on the mission frank now i think that we should look at this from more more than for specter of if you keep talking about the past and nobody was and so i mean we never know i'm talking about today very much george bush's war on terror and it seems like obama is the accepted it is well no i'm talking about what's going on today not the cold war. ok so well in this case i would say that there is a clear progression in the obama administration about democracy promotion and the discourse is not linked anymore to the war on terror of course you still have references to what is called a democracy these theory and the fact that democracies don't go to war with each other. would it mean that these emerging democracies in the middle east would be friendly to the united states i think like here in this case the history might not be in favor of the united states and what we might see he's the emergence of of some different more those of democracy which will not be the liberal democratic model which we know in the west with an emphasis on elections and sensually and

creating procedures and structures favoring elections between competing elites favoring individual freedoms when i'm trying to say here is that the number sees very contested as a concept there is more than one type of democracy and that's in order to sort of guess the outcome of democracy. it is essential to look at the realities affecting the temperature is going to rise in nations where the crises taking roots and look at you know the realities there and how democracy can adapt if you want to and we have competing models we talk a lot about islamic law islam democracy. and so would that mean that we live in well i mean i mean here jeff i mean you're right i mean this again it's very academic but i mean under eight years of bush and then in under two years of obama we still see american understanding of democracy make up to go to bruce here on this one to protect american national interests ok it's a cover it's

a cover for sure it's a cover to protect american interests that's why you know it could it's galling that hillary clinton will come out and say we need more democracy in egypt why couldn't she say that when she became secretary of state why can a secretary of state said that twenty five or thirty years ago. if you can see the difference between obama and bush you know you're not really looking close i'm not . here to read today they're not now washington to the region ok i think they raised more or less the same other one hundred eighty degrees but but but there are significant differences but let's go back to a point that tariq ali made because it's an important point you know during the cold war one of the huge mistakes that the united states made as we do is we kind of worked with or against this so the so-called third world was we lumped everything together as communism and more students and marxism and we didn't see the way that nationalism and local factors and culture and all those things entered and so in brazil i've been back and forth quite

a few times i mean for you know for the president of brazil who came into office feared as a great leftist to have emerged with eighty percent popularity in his own country when he leaves office you know most leaders around the world would die for that sort of popularity and he demonstrated luba demonstrated. that he was probers illian interest and he was prepared to work for them not always agree with the united states and elsewhere and the challenge we face i think in the arab and islamic world is very similar ok there are elements in my view you know. jihadists extremist groups that frankly don't have the interests of the people you know the best measure people are all on their minds but with a nice nice to do do is to figure out how to have relations with different forms of political islam i think in both tunisia and egypt ultimately you know whether it's the muslim brotherhood in egypt or some of the political islam parties that have been trying to stamp out by the dictator tunisia they're going to emerge as part of the mix and we really need to figure out ways you know to work with him because neither tunisia or egypt are these uprisings at this point at least anti-american

this is not iran one nine hundred seventy eight seventy nine straight may well go in that direction if the u.s. has some of the things you're saying that that that it's doing but right now i think the obama administration you know is trying it's a very tricky balance and you can find you know contradict. senate fine but they're trying you know as they have since the president came into office when he went to cairo and he gave a speech for an awful lot of stuff going on there that doesn't make the headlines but has been working with civil society groups and other groups in egypt and elsewhere to try to develop you know their ability to to to be part of the political process and that's a way to get the balance right because say that it's all you know just about you know standing with their carriers i think right now this administration is trying to change it and change it in a way that leads to things that are really in the interest of the people because the united states can't control everything that happens in these countries in one direction or any other lot of forty days where they can influence because of their

power and leaders teddy you had your hand you had your head down i was wondering if you if you were bored by a conversation or you were exasperated no no i'm not boy i bet you know where those ok well those see differences well those see differences i basically see an essential continue to be between the bush and obama administrations both domestically and in terms of foreign policy i don't think all that much has changed except for the mood music and the record in terms of what is concretely being done in different parts of the world and if one is found which we have mentioned obama is actually escalated the war there have been more grown attacks on pakistan during the obama years than in the entire eight years of the previous administration so one's got to preserve a balance and not be taken in. by the rhetoric which is being thrown around i

think a sensually what is going on in the middle east today is sixteen lean porton if mubarak falls it will be a heavy blow for the united states regardless of who takes over because egypt was absolutely central to u.s. policy in the. region in order to keep the israelis happy we have discussed israel this state for some reason is important for the united states it backs it through thick and thin and often american interests get in tangled with what they see as israeli security in course in the region and that is one reason why that region in many many of its intellectuals and civil society groups have been extremely unhappy that palestine is the one colonial issue from the last century that remains resolved now in terms of political islam their islam has all the colors of the rainbow you can find every parent within these quote the united states is perfectly

happy working with these families in turkey who are staunch supporters of nato and have been a central pillar of nato i don't think the muslim brotherhood in either region could turn this year will be all that different but what will be different if the demonstrators succeed in toppling mubarak is that egypt will for the first time in years be able egyptians will be able to decide on who they want to elect and that in six stream lee important and the choice there is much more different than the choice you have in europe center left center right democrats republicans in the u.s. very little divides them in egypt the gulf between the dictatorship and the people challenging it is huge so it's a very exciting prospect and of course it might well affect u.s. relations with egypt if for instance just on one lesion they decide to open the

border with gaza and not going to be trampled exactly you know jeff i mean i i didn't want to go to the pearly israel because well first of all your program on it was this week already but i mean again i mean in the course of two weeks we have this these events playing out in egypt we. offense with lebanon i mean the entire security arrangement with the united states pursued over the last four decades in the greater middle east is in shambles now if in fact a study because they are really at the center of american foreign policy interests in the region israel's security it may now be the least secure it's been in a very long time and it's because democracy is the idea and and people took it upon themselves i agree with what we heard earlier it's not anti-american yet we'll see where it goes but when we do hear what the people have to say we could have a very very volatile and we always say volatile the greater middle east if these changes are actually come to fruition true or something that we would call democracy you know the question is that it's not necessarily the case that the

united states and i say should not be putting all our eggs in the mubarak basket there's no question about that and it's not necessarily the case that a new regime would be anti-american ok really depends how this plays out what the forces are it work and the like but i think that this notion that there's just continuity is kind of if people need i say sometimes they're only reading the right hand pages of a book and a lot of what i'm hearing is just reading the left hand pages you know the reality is that the reality is that you know this is ministration the bush administration basically gave the israelis a lot of blank checks ok but it wasn't just had some problems is ok. but it's really ok we have to stop on this point gentlemen ok many thanks to my guests today in paris and in wales and in durham and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time in remember cross talk to. a

time when you're broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.