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the lonely welcome to cross talk i'm futile of feel bamma doctrine is there such a thing over the past few months we've seen the us waffle as change rages. across the arab middle east some western backed dictators remain firmly in power well the same time forced regime change is happening in libya all when is this a new doctrine or just muddling through. story. discuss whether there's an obama doctrine i'm joined by phyllis bennis in washington she is project director at the institute for policy studies in paris we have on this album marty he is a libyan political analyst and another member of our cross talk team yell on the hunger all right phyllis i'd like to go to you first you know we're both americans and we are used to having presidents having doctrines when it comes to foreign policy and we had harry truman he had

a universal policy you know universal doctrine that is if you support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation ok john f. kennedy pay any price bear any burden to assure the survival and success of liberty we all remember that one and we should it's a good saying george w. bush had his own to the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in the world now mr obama a few days ago had the following to say let's discuss it this is his doctrine. america should not be expected to police the world particularly when we have so many pressing concerns here at home is that a doctrine should it be a doctrine should it be embrace and is it being acted out phyllis. well i don't think that's a dark and i think it's a statement of lowering expectations i also think that one of the problems with all of these documents is that it bases the whole of u.s. foreign policy on the military so if we say should we intervene should we help it's

assumed to mean should we send troops in my analysis that's almost never the case we should intervene with a whole range of other things but not with military force and that question of how are we defining intervention is an ongoing challenge in the particular for president obama i think what he faces right now given that the arab spring has turned upside down all of the longstanding assumptions of what u.s. policy in the middle east needs to be i don't think they're anywhere close to having a real doctrine yet ok and so we're going to you in paris me view agree with the military intervention into libya well yes i do why why is that i mean given what phil when phyllis just said ok i mean you know and i'll tend to agree with her you know we always think of sending tanks and planes and troops in boots and bombs and sure like in effect political changes but only became to haunt everybody in the long run but you support an already hit. well i think i think we

need to have a bigger picture and we have to take a longer view there were three happening because i don't particularly pursue the truth to mention as a whole interest i think you of this is if we take a longer view back last thirty forty years and fifty years since the nationals of terminations movements which laws are shaped and drew lines around the deserts of the middle east and you fall in that or those lines were drawn support was given and it wasn't in the economic sense it was given a military sense i mean we were actually armed and given vocal support were actually supports around the middle east and i think that's why we have a moral obligation to this on them i personally don't think it is a option is it morally right is it morally right to arm rebels at the same time i mean the argument is here to bring in more and more arms into a very very volatile dangerous situation ok and we also have the problem of mission creep ok we heard only

a few days ago when we you know we're not going to commit more than going to put boots on the ground but apparently cia sneakers are already there david needed that after the fact i mean mission creep is involved here. can you have a one off and you're saying we should have a one off right. another think you should be a one off and let me go back to the first point you're making in a sense if we if we talk about. about military intervention as a as an only solution and it was looking about. from the ceiling. a person look at the series involvement in panama and places that are really really showed you know the old intentions of the i'm not trying to so this is. behind however we do know that the seeing. as we're calling them from the transitional council in libya is actually being as transparent as possible because it's something that we've not had in libya and we've never had a transparent and accountable government there with. the training and it's not

something that's kind of. a mystery or something that's coming out as a something that's coming from the city because. it was i was just going. ok fellas i want to jump in and ask can i just ask you i want to ask and ask you raise the issue of looking back further and i think that is very very crucial i think part of the problem with our discussions about libya has been that we've all focused on that one day when allegedly and i'm not convinced it was either imminent or inevitable that there was going to be the kind of massive slaughter that has really used as the reason that there was no alternative let me just finish and that is that we have seen that would you reason that i was instead it is because of. what i'm saying is let's go back let's go back two days before that when the libyan opposition had managed to drive those government tanks out of out of

out of benghazi with their own power without military force i'm not convinced that they could have done it again i'm not sure but my point is if we started with that they were hemmed in if we're looking back and we are now i think we need to look back three weeks earlier the first day there was a government assault on unarmed protesters. the first day when it they were still unarmed that was the moment for the u.s. to quote intervene by saying you know what the final gadhafi we have allowed you since two thousand and two to be on our good side no more no more arms no more contracts no more military support you're going back out of this terrorism since i was on the hearing this will stop exactly as they should have the others well this is easily that's what i think point would do if we're looking however long range missile jobs you're seeing in the conflict it looks in the conflict i mean what was the news so yourselves you know your own your own problems and we know that one solider the other side is not an american i personally don't want any arms in libya

i'm not asking for in a situation where no one is on a person that we've made a massive massive. loss of someone that i'm going to looking at have also brought him out of the cold in two thousand and three or two thousand and two if you want to call it but i personally think that huge but i do want to go about the situation that is going and also for the other thing is we can talk about also because you know the base can really focus on but if there was an imminent threat and i can you can accuse obama of procrastinating during that period of time isn't it because i mean it is like elation but when the moment was imminent i wouldn't risk that personally because my people and i personally know that they do themselves realize that. america has a bad track record on the full sound of the mission to do this is. right the problem is there are some common good everyone has family in the forest i mean really who don't have a marketing grateful right phyllis champion. there are people in libya who also recognize that there are cia people among the libyan opposition the guy who came

back from northern virginia for twenty years who is now one of the commanders of the military is somebody who clearly was involved with u.s. intelligence during that period there's a mixed bag of the libyan opposition in terms of what people have asked for what they want the other thing that i think is makes this all very problematic is that in the context of the arab spring where in each of these situations they began whether it was egypt whether it was tunisia whether it's been yemen bahrain all of them have faced massive military assault at the beginning only in libya was the decision made to take up arms i'm not going to second guess that this is all in the same sentence there are two hundred one says that you are. right and that's why as we see where. the heart of the search for the nationals is going to jump the line. why is it is because of the very thing why is it different because it used now it is different i just think it is. problem personally i think it's

a numbers going on i think in terms of victims being a numbers game i don't want to say that there were more people who are here and more people who are equally realize that give birth he was on the radio program i mean if you look at i want to use iraq as a very good example as to what things were wrong and things are right personally when bush and blair came out saying there was a forty five minute threat and it was imminent and they tried to fool the rest of the world in the long with it but if there was no substance of the argument he was on the radio or on the radio waves of libya and forcing and people are going to. come in cleanse you know if you think that's an imminent threat i don't ok but i personally wouldn't want my conscious and secondly you have to realize that if we're talking of the greater picture here of obama he looks like someone that obviously his intervention through this was lackluster he didn't do anything and came in late egypt can be said in the roughly the same thing however in libya i think i think we can accuse them of progress the notion but i look back at his legal background and i say to myself someone looks at legal background and as

a liberal and a different you know kind of a fish to the neo conservative background i would say that he's looking at legal perspective and trying to go through every avenue and track the developments as they come however when the thought was imminent he would have been and it would have been the case with the situation we're talking about anyway i personally want to be talking about another one in libya another holiday charged names and countries and and you know the whole charged of and let me answer is not a good point to your school and nobody does head falls nobody does and i think i have that i have a different view and i wonder i supported intervention in a lot and i blame the united states and france for not only not intervening but affirmatively preventing the united nations from intervening so i'm not somebody who says there should never be any intervention the question is under what circumstances and by whom one of the key things that president obama did was to recognize that there's a difference between legality and legitimacy he knew he could force his way. and to

a u.n. resolution in the security council the u.s. has a long history of that buying bribing threatening to get votes it happens here it will happen again it's happened before but he also knew that without clarity from the arab league and the african union that wasn't going to be possible so early on if you recall the overall stimulus question was already rolled away in question here or from the way i'm talking about the questions i was asked and he recognized you know let me just say the question for me is partly international legitimacy and having both the arab league and the african union what has been important what we found was that the african union was not prepared to sign on to even a no fly zone let alone all necessary measures and as soon as they made that clear the obama administration stopped talking about the need for african union or you're going to trump anybody really going to be really are you going to break in after that break we'll continue our discussion on obama's foreign policy in libya state park. to keep.

the. free. education free. free. free free. free. free. and free blog video for your media project c.e.o. don carty dot com.

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talking about the so-called obama doctrine. and it. started. but first let's see what russians think about the libyan intervention. a bomb a doctrine is it a doctrine or an intervention strategy in his speech at the national defense university barack obama articulated the grounds for the intervention in libya and now many say it reveals the beginnings of reno regarding league use of u.s. military supports the russian public opinion research center all citizens of this support the international military operation in libya sixty four percent said they do not and the other twenty percent of the respondents expressed their support still the bomb a doctor has yet to be declared but presidential doctor have an impact on american policy and as

a result on the entire world to peter and it's i'd like to go back to you in paris here a lot of people will say and i want to talk about george w. bush in this part of the program obama had a sudden attack of stupid idealism. do you think that's a fair thing to say because again if we look at interventions in the past a lot of people can say you know what in panama with success successful you can go to paramount a lot of people will say it wasn't ok so i guess it depends on how we define success here but very idealistic or is obama just trying to muddle through on this one too because you can say well it's an international effort now any can walk away from it that's not being very idealistic. obama was elected to have a third war in the muslim world good for him and. in the post in the post the rock world i think. in terms of real cool if you can everyone knows that it's political suicide to recruit through in iraq and to try and convert their way

through that one again so i mean i personally think they did it with that he's done them in afghanistan or trying to be possible you know i think you know. this situation of others everyone knows that he's a thousand more troops i don't really think that this is the but and this is the us i think this really is the crux to the reason i ask you is that you support this intervention ok you're living in ok if your country fine but i mean this is isn't this. isn't this what well i mean even i'm willing to admit that people can have a personal attachment to an issue ok that's fair enough ok but it is same time isn't this just bush lite this was another intervention and there's no there there is a difference too is that the american people and the world were lied to for months on end preparing for the war to go into iraq and this was just done over the weekend i mean you know it was no debate in the united states you said news international you said it was over you say do you say they were sleep is there was

transparency in this transparency in benghazi going into this conflict or a war if it is a war there wasn't much transparency ok so i miss you can finish your parents here in washington ok well that look a that's what's most important because nobody else can do i think all right go ahead phyllis go ahead but i think i think that the key the key question of transparency is important and what's not true in washington but i also think that we should be clear this was not a sudden decision that was made at a moment of urgency this was a decision that was several weeks in the making as we know that come about first when the french and the brits said we want a resolution that will call for a no fly zone the u.s. position was no we don't think a no fly zone is going to work but instead of saying and therefore we're going to vote no. they said let us take a resolution we will rewrite it and we'll come back with a better resolution which of course said not only a no fly zone but all necessary means to protect civilians but we're also does resonate as you know what is tactics could be. it's one of the questions that needs

to be asked it's not the only question i one question the kind of person of his word national this is decided libyans why the libyans also why the libyans also in foreign affairs and why the asking for international finance one important the feeling they weren't that's a very important question if it wasn't walmer one hundred it's not the only question of course it did was i think personal threats and that's a reality came in that's a reality and. that doesn't mean that hundreds nationally but pushback from sort of up from which is the stronghold of gadhafi. over a period of a week which back militarily takes a good little bit to you know be exactly ok of gadhafi has the capacity because he's using european arms you know or the point i really want to make here is that whether or not we want to debate whether it's going to throw another think we would like to i think we're working on very morally dubious grounds here but if we were to say that it doesn't matter if it's a threat or it was you know it was heated i mean he was going to say man so you know wasn't in the area no i'm not saying that what i'm saying is always

a government of the design a question a lot more than can be threatened i'm saying no i'm not saying i can't really enjoy seeing what i can do what they could not you say what you want to see right now ready to jump in i'm not convinced that the united ireland convinced that the united states government decision not my own personal view that the united states government decision was not a sudden one based on what the people of benghazi wanted they made a strategic decision like it's cold it's calculated it takes into account a moral issue only as a political factor in terms of how it will be assessed what their decision is ok and i want to ask you what you know you know sometimes you know it's not a natural joyous occasion that there's little they will. last point but i want to challenge you on that point however because i don't think that humanitarian aid is and so the principle of of what has always been the family factor in foreign policy in america or in the west if you will laws a branch of however i do want to was whether whether or not we believe that this is

not a coincidence of interests and if i can also personally what do you think the motivating factor was in order to go into libya you want to go see i think it was a combination of factors the main one i think the main factor was a lack of clarity about what their posture was going to be in the arab spring in general they wanted to position themselves in a position of being on the right side of history that corresponded with us he was also. there with us from popular forces right and but we do have to separate what i might want to happen as an individual person what i want isn't really the point i would have wanted maybe for a revolution at the very very beginning that very first day when they went people in benghazi fell face the same kind of attack that the people in yemen faced and i think they made their own choices and gets their choice was one of the few choices was ok well you know we can argue that he wasn't going on with me and there are

consequences to that and i want to ask you a question the government in yemen. to ask you a question what they were talking about ok i want to ask you i mean the intervention is started it's going on as we speak there is a stalemate at least as we speak has the intervention that fueled fueled on or created a civil war that could last why don't why don't while at the expense of the libyan people civil civil war civil civil wars around civil wars or when you have two conflicting sort of conflicting demands and i think i don't like to call them rebels on though that it's a very small point to make this the importance of being made over and over again i guess will be a perino issue for the rest of the bit of addition and if you are a paper you warm. people are people our own systems are they rebels look with arms for the rebels what are they civilians with arms i mean what's your definition of millions i mean these are teachers teachers students bakers government employees policemen i mean they're from every background that you have in libya and i mean i

work for a year or so and so not an artifact is that it's not an army it's a people trying to govern themselves and they're trying to get rid of forty two years of political dysfunction isn't i don't want to call them rebels because of the highly political aims all their aim is get rid of gadhafi so they can have a more democratic and the reflected government so want to get rid of him so ultimately i think it's a war of ideas that's true in a classroom with a kind of we have an arab spring. it was going. out of the list and if there isn't and i think it is a civil war when people when two sides are fighting to hold territory i think that makes it a civil war i don't think the the opposition side is an art when you're doing really well and you're on the outs on this if you're to introduce your home for no it's not an army it's a it's an armed population i agree with that but there are now two sides bill and zoe going to this region to say i'm leaving the house and there but it was used to be a lesson of all put in the house as a not going to other place on paper for most people i honestly john this is the easiest but if you want to call it isn't it i'm saying there are two sides fighting

right character and ten fillers the us if you see is have a show is the stalemate the us and its allies have chosen the side as well in this and again making it more and more into the side for a change although you know by going to the sixty's you see as you say with your shoes in the throes of things haters in the right but it's the same time is that because what is chair is exactly i will choose the dictators including gadhafi so loudly so gadhafi is no good or we have all the treasures of everybody's friend of the region so we trust in them a little bit in washing them on one issue is usually doing it wrong exactly or using military force in a way that is guaranteed and i said it before they did it and i say that it has come true that the military force has made the military stalemate emerge in libya it is now whatever you want to call it i'm not going to fight over the words but there are two military forces battling for control of territory there is likely to

be a stalemate that's going to go on for a long as i'm concerned more people are going to die under the no fly zone in iraq because really one year alone one hundred forty four people were killed by the no fly zone so this is not something without plausible ones under the noses of elian is totally one of those children who is doing but most of the world through this measure it's as it is we have an issue of them we have an awful. for the last two weeks i mean i could go out and prove it to you but i mean the western journalists on the ground the people in there would say well i think they want to support america whether they're clean them or not but they've come out and they've said the no fly zone has not killed civilians i mean i'll be hard pushed to point point that's right through the area we're almost trying so it's an easy place ramos time to. ask one more question and ask how to break the stalemate here comes clearly break. this is the last answer how can we break the stalemate without greater outside intervention and what would be fueling what a lot of people call

a civil war how do you break the stalemate. ok i personally think although i think you are ignorant is that the question is framed it's not the issue framed it all that is the broken the social conflict can weaken the death is broken the social contract with its people as rousseau would say he's broken the social contract with people he has no legitimacy and so when he is with the people they're choosing to fight against a dictator so we have to negotiate with the people not with gadhafi and he has no terms he has no ground and he has no legitimacy to the negotiate with him and also is the question of the oversight and military system going from injury but arming the people themselves even on the performance reviews how well i know this is there on this point folks thank you very much for a very heated discussion many thanks to my guest today in washington and in pairs and thanks for viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time and remember prostitutes. ok.

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as you jerk covered. if. any fifty to. fifty feet feel. safe to leave. the folks.