the future. is the be. we believe that was suspended together traded for to be sure it was all the problems for the trio but he the police themselves to a large extent can shari'a co-exist in harmony with western values it's a question people are asking in london and a question people are asking about a government imposed gadhafi in libya. plus what's next for libya and everyone involved will speak with a former cia agent who questions the end game for the country. america's the greatest country in the world but it didn't get that we brought. it over mccain and lieberman there's a new neo con poster boy in town so as conservatives turn to cuban american marco rubio to possibly win over latino votes are they forgetting something say his

stance on immigration. good afternoon it's wednesday august twenty fourth four pm here in washington d.c. i'm lauren lyster you're watching r.t. now libya's moammar gadhafi is wanted dead or alive there's a one point six million dollars bounty out on his head he's at large even though he pledged overnight in an address to the nation that he will fight until victory or martyrdom meanwhile though the rebels have seized the colonel's compound rebel leaders are reportedly moving their headquarters to tripoli now and the question becomes what will the government look like in a post gadhafi libya and of course who are the rebel leaders that will come to power now the national transitional council though they haven't been elected they claim to be the only legitimate government and a draft constitutional charter purportedly from them has appeared online take a look at this part of it libya is an independent democratic state when the people

. well our the source of the authorities islam is the religion of the state and the principal source of legislation is islamic jurisprudence otherwise known as shari'ah so it's based on sharia law so is this the kind of democracy that president obama had in mind when he said that he was justified in dropping bombs on the country to back the rebels for this reason. i haven't thought of as they have issued a manifesto and i quote just from one sentence of it the state will guarantee the rights and empowerment of women and all legal political economic and cultural sphere i have detected no. effort or motivation amongst the national transition council many of whom i know well to impose shari'a law ok so actually that wasn't president obama that was senator john mccain and he went on t.v. to disprove the idea that the transitional council was out to impose sharia law that

was the excuse that he gave and that is the same mccain mind you who two years ago met with alfie at his ranch and said he'd shared quote an interesting meeting with an interesting man and who would also promise to help gadhafi get u.s. military hardware as a u.s. partner in the war on terror and that is according to a just released u.s. cable released by wiki leaks and it reveals it to be a pretty friendly needing now i do want to go back i want to look at what reasons president obama has given for backing the libyan rebels and for getting involved in this civil war here's a snippet of what he said the united states also strongly supports the universal rights of the libyan people that includes the rights of peaceful assembly free speech the ability of the libyan people to determine their own destiny. so does that include supporting shari'a if that's what they want now this is a debate that isn't new it harks back to iraq

a war an occupation that after the weapons of mass destruction excuse pretty much fell through bush justified as part of a global democratic revolution led by the united states but what happened after the events of two thousand and three were a struggle between iraqi leaders and american ones a struggle between the desires for shari'a in iraq and an american desire to tone that down but enshrined in iraq's constitution nonetheless is a blunt here's a little snippet of that islam is the official religion of the state and is the foundation source of legislation but also goes on to say that while no law may be enacted that contradicts the established provisions of islam also no law may be enacted that contradicts the principles of democracy so you kind of have a hybrid but what does this all mean as we look at libya and as we see comparisons being made by many analysts who come on this show between libya now and iraq in two thousand and three joining me now is one of the top one hundred modern thinkers to help us figure that out that's according to foreign policy magazine he's room i

he's a writer and academic he is also professor of democracy human rights and journalism at hard college and we're so happy to have you here thank you so much for being with us on the show so my first question to you are we going to see now in libya what we saw in iraq where an authoritarian regime but a secular one was overthrown but then the secular elements of that opposition then get you know put on the back burner and islamic takeover. who's. going to lose. his group where these people are. going to go to live here. is going to be very true if your version. is the longest river. you look at it comes back in the end then what it's replaced but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be less good graphic it's almost impossible to be

listening critically and. then. ok but but here's a question if shari'a is enshrined in libya in the constitution in some way is this a threat or a challenge to western values because if you watch fox news you do you don't have to be a genius to pick up on the fact that a lot of people think that's the case i see that as a problem. that may be a problem the question is how how it's interpreted and how it's incorporated i don't think you know in the law me explain it but i don't think there is a consensus on this there's not one interpretation should realize there are many countries which sort of move and they should use korea in different ways and. it's an equal basis so it could be basically should readers about break in it's really just anything that could be a little disposed to being around islamic values justice and he can.

state that i'm not one of them and feel the law should be based on christian things and how that's done how much room the rights of minorities rights and speech and so on and they're just a small country to country and so how much recognized as such is free speech and agenda records and so on the great is bent on how the interim. you know you brought up an interesting point you mentioned that you know whether or not people disagree like yourself with it that that u.s. law and u.s. constitution is based on you could argue christian notions and values so is it any surprise that a muslim country majority muslim country would want the same thing for their constitution it's not just prize there is of course it's. a real threat. secular democracy. is not that sort. of religious

institution and that's a particular when this institution the church is the catholic church for a real. political base that's sick and it's hard rock. that doesn't really exist in the world. there is no source of real religious or property so it's hard to see how one rock fred would be a good. if. for example freedom of speech would be a sort of traditional religious basis but it's not the values or if you think ok so the authority then my question is is there a problem for the united states when the united states calls for democracy and the will of the people in libya to prevail if libya chooses shari'a and chooses

that whether it's a blend of of the values or the authority isn't that democracy if that's what they choose but it would certainly be a problem if it were it is longest go. to that there is a literal view of the region and trying to impose all kinds of liberal. those on the country that would make it if not it would be a threat to democracy for its liberal bloggers you know not well this you know it would be in the first place for them and so it's. for you buddy. second place it might be a problem to be united states with the rest were but what problem could it pose to the united states or to the western world well for example if you hadn't been islamised government that was very actively in militant anti reston. the problem in a country that's a major oil supplier. it could be a problem because it rips the app so it's the general climate in

a very volatile police and i'm so so there are potential problems there i mean the more liberal democratic countries like libya will be the better it's well the united states and the others and it's also very possible to have this is what we're seeing which turns out to be anti western and very nationalistic that could be represents the popular current in the country it's not that it's a panacea or even if it were to think what should the us speak out very loudly or get involved to not have it be a government that is and i like her because you have made the point that the us going out and spreading democracy has got a really bad name after iraq and afghanistan pretty much democracy by armed force is not going to hear and i think. in the middle east or anywhere.

thank you very much in flux the less interference rules from the west the better it is this is something that they have to sort out. their country they have to fight the system it's simple and them all the u.s. or western countries in general. intervene directly to shape their future even more likely that this of course great resentment of an empty western package which which then does what. the backlash right that depends on circumstances. and says it's a major world very strategic interest there there is real estate in your problem it could cause all kinds of mischief so could this all blow up in the united states as a in a way that it wouldn't have if they had just stayed out of it and if he had stayed in power. well that's always. the great excuse to use dictators

and all the just in the rascals of course this is stable this is it it's the. devil we know it this is stick with. i don't think that that's a good i think it's always worth while trying an alternative if you will essentially democratic and i don't think sticking with the book is a brutal dictator in the long run is a good and if what results is a version of shari'a which the united states does not care for is that just like that's just what happens. again it depends on what business it really depends on. things that we can the big. b. and two west a bill into law missed or prepared state because that would not be a good thing that this a risk it's probably a risk with. running to find alternatives to very bluntly.

but is it one that the united states should accept as is if that's the result and not get involved further and pushing the government to be what it indigent. but if you question is should the united states goodwill it turns out to be a go to the united states like a. rest and balance balance so we know that when we were going to war all right right now this is a discussion that we're having between if shari'a and western values can coexist and how that work that isn't just limited to libya or to what we've seen in history and iraq it's a discussion that's going on now in london i want to take a look at what's going on there a story from one of our reporters laura and and i want to get your response to that mr brown and let's take a look. so we are here to tell you now islam. is unstoppable in europe stoning for adultery cutting off hands for stealing death of renouncing islam this group of men is trying to enforce shari'a law in the u.k.

they started a campaign to make certain areas of london and other cities islamic law control so starting with walthamstow east london people are good for being evil because of these numbers were targeted to the muslim an enormous community also looking we believe that was suspended together trade according to sharia has all the problems of the sharia and even police themselves for logic start hopefully one day try to summit governments which will have a policy locally security locally and you provide water locally choudhry and his friends are fly posting parts of london with large muslim populations they want to ban drinking gambling and playing music and they say they've got bands of young men ready to patrol and in full shari'a law by any means now that enforcement will not initially be in on the level of inviting and for the listening has again been stephany's what an essentially evil like

a free patrician should do so. by that we can of course i believe need a mosque should be run out of the area these muslims say british society is broken a little with drugs crime and prostitution because of that they firmly believe members of the communities they're targeting will welcome sharia law but the word of a street about the campaign tells a different story comes down to if you don't like the laws of the place you live somewhere where you to appreciate the laws and all of these things are completely legal in this country this is not india or pakistan this is. laws people have no rights can here bring their laws in here well. i think but councillor martin east. thing this could destroy community cohesion we've run the osa since i put it up because we do not want these posters around they do not represent the future and

they have no place in movement for us this is an equality campaigners see the show real support it shouldn't be considered a religious movement it's a far right political organization with a place to campaign designed to divide and conquer communities the danger lies in dividing people dividing communities and creating mistrust and particularly among from non muslims towards moderate muslims i think this is part of their aim is to create mistrust so they can learn to want to moderate muslims and say look everyone hates you we're french onto us i'm going to see very very dangerous thing as a political tactic to increase their own power undeterred by opposition child realtor's group plan what they see is the beginning of an islamic emirate not just to be incapable of europe police have mobilized to take these posters down as fast as they appear but choudhry and his group say they formed a vigilante enforces to make sure she is here to berkeley all physically and in

other parts of london women have already been harassed for not covering their heads if these muslims ever get their way i won't be able to dress like this on the streets of them stay or many other parts of london russell's rome and paris your and it's arty well some story loved it. and i want to bring you back into this conversation so you have this debate going on in london and you have some members of the muslim community who want some version of sharia in their communities is that. is that in contradiction with western democratic values in a western democracy like u.k. or can it always co-exist. with the kind of my view the extreme ideas. reflect the most recently i think so please not only conflict with the question there was a lot and i think it's fairly simple if you start stoning women for adultery or

when humans use to use knives instant force and ridiculous rules they break the law and those people should be arrested so i think the answer to that. and i agree with the speaker says that it's very difficult. that's trying to divide muslims among themselves and for political power and obviously i'm not. ok from that because what kind of political power do they get a for such a backlash the backlash from the along with the population right so that well they gang is the first place i think what they want it's a revolutionary movement inside the world of islam which they want is to be the controlling voice. in inside islam they want to be the ones who are trying what should be and that's interesting and i don't think that they seriously. front and

center but it's a it's a fight for the control and even look ok and it's also something that is interesting because in the united states you had thirteen states proposed to ban shari'a law oklahoma passed it but everts overturned it but nonetheless trying to do that preemptively because of some fear of shari'a law just yes or no when when people like this you disagree with in london try to push for this does it give. must you know is islam a bad name somewhere like the united states you think because you could see a lot of. critics who were. there. all right well it's an interesting discussion that seems like it will continue to continue whether you're east or west that was a writer academic loose professor of democracy human rights and journalism are college thank you so much thank you now still what remains in the debate going back

to libya is the question of the reason for the united states's involvement in the first place because protecting civilians does clearly not seem to have been the only goal congressman dennistoun at present a high oh he is one who is asking in a recent article if the cia was involved in planning regime change back when protests broke out in benghazi before that and did the cia have a role and fomenting what was essentially a civil war we're going to talk about that is jack rice he's a journalist and a former cia officer himself thank you for being with us so my first question to you is you know we heard congressman kucinich ask did the cia have a role before protests broke out in february before the events of february and march do you think that could be a possibility. sure i view i mean let's be honest the cia is involved in every place that they try to get involved in they were at least on the ground in egypt

they try to be on the ground everywhere in every major country in the region and tripoli is one of those places you would have expected them so to deny it but i think so i think what percentage what congressman percentage is talking about is a reasonable question but i think one of the problems that we have is the u.s. has a very schizophrenia relationship it's sort of approach to the middle east in general we talk about democracy and how we're supporting the rebels and how incredibly close to protect human life etc but we've made the very same argument in egypt but that ignores the fact that we supported mubarak for decades as our very closest ally in the region how do you reconcile that those two there's a lot of people in the middle east every question of course i mean at the same question that comes up in countries like bahrain where the united states has not had the same reaction as it did to libya where of course there isn't that the powerful geopolitical partner as well as a very important source of oil libya is

a different situation and the united states has had a different relationship with the leader and with that country do you think that regime change was a plan of the united states earlier on then than what it unfolded today in a civil war. i think it broader sense the answer is yes i think if we look at what we found with the arab spring in general when all of a sudden you realized that egypt could still know egypt was going to fall over suddenly it opens up this broader question of what else can change in the region and what else can we change in our favor and let's face it let's never deny it with the u.s. is doing here is that this isn't about protecting the people of libya this is about american interests first and foremost we can shyness up what we want this is not a left or right question the republican or democratic question this is an american

foreign policy question it's cold blooded as hell a problem that we haven't you know is reconciling when we say one thing but we turn around and do another and regardless of that hypocrisy doesn't the us realize that this could all backfire in its face i mean my last guest and i were talking about the vision that sharia law could be a you know what this and that which is not something with which the united states would want we've seen that happen in other countries and yes struggle in iraq so this could not go the way that the united states wants it leaders have to know that right. oh without question you know that's what they're afraid of it's interesting there are a lot of conversations across that that without it we're right now the british foreign minister hague just came out this morning and he even said it where do we go next well the first thing we have to do is get some stability on the ground i mean imagine what happens when all of these twenty something year old kids and they are kids in many cases who roll in to get off his compound and walk out with

a lot of weaponry on the streets of libya i'm streets of tripoli where do you go next what do the americans to you all of a sudden these guys turn around decided you know what what we need is more shari'a what we need is more than what you saw from get up and that's the problem how do the americans reconcile that i haven't had an answer i haven't heard an answer certainly not as of yet anyway how do you think that americans and the u.s. will back and filed that do you think that the united states will get dragged into or not get dragged into but god themselves into war to prevent what they want from not happening we haven't. oh i don't think you're going to see a war in any sense of the word what you may see is exactly what we have done in the past you see a lot of shadow worlds and this shadow war is to basically move into a region and try to control it from the sidelines this isn't what we're seeing in some place like yemen as of yet but that's one of our biggest fears let's think about what we have to do you know but right now where we supported

a leadership which had no control of the region but the problem is is there was nothing better that was there and then when he gets pushed aside you have such incredible instability that you can't turn to anybody and say you need to stop what's going on in your own country so now we've expanded into the likes of not just iraq you know ganesan a bit of both places other parts of the horn of africa but you're also talking about yemen is the art is the american government prepared to actually move into libya in the very real sense to what president obama has been very hesitant to do that but you should know that the likes of rick perry the likes of bachmann the likes of mitt romney have all said that president obama was not aggressive enough we should have the ad war troops we should have had more planes oh yes well then what does that say that at things like cancer it is always just one av some of them the hocks not mars bar but we'll have to wait and see if this is

a bad day continues to expand and if we find out more about just what role the c.a.a. did have and the civil war but thank you so much for your expertise as a former cia officer jack rice is also joining us. now other lawmakers besides those that you mentioned are putting their two cents in on u.s. involvement in libya florida senator marco rubio said obama did too little too late also similar to some of the lawmakers that my last guest broke up but what makes this lawmaker different well the republicans don't even have their candidate for president yet but this guy is a vice presidential prospect getting a lot of air time he's fund raising in california right now he gave a speech there last night and what else about him let's see he is a cuban american senator from florida he's also an ardent defender of american exceptionalism who according to some analysts just might be the next neo-con in chief taking up the mantle from senators like those of lieberman and john mccain

but kaylynn ford has a much deeper look into this new republican party golden boy there was no big guy who was making where he's the rising star of the republican party or go rubio. one of your coworker or you're a troublemaker we're hearing reports thirteen out here marco rubio senator from florida america's the greatest country in the world but it didn't get that we brought back some cuban american you can use the same ear and neoconservative becoming a world power it was never america's plan but that's exactly what the american economic miracle made her really about his star in self florida as one of cuban american congresswoman ileana ros but in an interview he rises in part because. in order to be elected dog catcher you have to have a problem. and sort of not unexpectedly rises like you like from. politics from florida and quickly me believe from state

legislator to u.s. senate and although he invoked his parents struggle as cuban immigrants whether they came here on the mayflower on a slave ship run an airplane from havana. we are all descendants of the men and women who built here the nation that saved the world well they. will be our pows it's comprehensive immigration reform and the dream act marco rubio maybe the republicans superman but the way he handles immigration is kryptonite and supports english only was even though he ran his campaign in spanish the fact is that when he ran for senator he was able to advertise in spanish saying i'm an immigrant too and it garnered a fair amount of support rubio represents the hallmarks of the neo conservative movement leveling this criticism of president obama's taxes on wealthy americans it's class warfare and it's the kind of language that you would expect from a leader of a third world country not the president of the united states supporting

a strong military america still the only watchman on the wall for freedom and there is still no one to take our place and like senators before him an expensive role abroad tyrants and always lied about america's intentions because they fear our values our only interest in serious and we hope people will have the same freedoms we do as well as fewer regulations per big business if we could just get the government to ease up on some of these onerous regulations american people will take care of the rest because this idea about america being exceptional it's not something i read about in the book rubio's vision has been embraced by tea partiers and neo conservatives alike the glories of tissues united states past when everything was in order one when everybody was happy and you know no genocide no slavery no nothing like that just.