this is. the israeli ambassador on cots military times will tell of the over the country's refusal to apologize for the dead he. last may the downgrade follows the meat findings of the u.n. investigation into the attack the reports of these plans israel for using excessive force. may be in rebels closing in on their down these last remaining stronghold with the colonel himself a man on the ground we stored one of his secret functions revealing that the fugitives the skate group could stretch way beyond the rebels' reach. and on scene

evidence the international war crimes tribunals use in zoology to find it all with four balls the general dropping nottage to complete the posture by the recording could be a crucial piece of evidence in the genocide trial. coming up next here on the aussie cross with people of that message. and you can see. logan welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle reasons for optimism for more

uncertainty and violence with the end of the gadhafi regime what are the possible futures of libya can the country move from civil war to stable and democratic society or will it follow down the path of another afghanistan or iraq libya. egypt stands. to cross-talk libya after gadhafi i'm joined by lindsey german in london she is a national conveyor of stop the war coalition and denver we cross to daniel wagner he is c.e.o. of country wrists aleutians and in toronto we go to eric margolis he is an award winning journalist and author of war at the top of the world the struggle for afghanistan and asia all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's look at some of the challenges facing the new libya. following six months of iraq about all the grip the world's attention the arab spring has produced another significant outcome

the toppling of libya's qaddafi may have come as a surprise to almost everyone now the least of which were the rebels who fought the forty two year regime. but as the victory fanfare settles libyans are facing a far more trying challenge that of proving they can create an alternative to israel when they stand there you're looking at look at me he can shin the weapon a local here this is all it is so we're starting from own with you know buoyant in this. we're. in this situation the country is transitional council has been lobbying foreign governments to unfreeze billions of dollars and khadafi is assets to jumpstart the country's economy and the international community has afforded libya the benefit of the doubt well there will be huge challenges ahead one of the positive aspects here is that the libyans are the ones

who are undertaking the regime change and the ones leading the transition. there's no sign however that nato which sustained the campaign against gadhafi forces will be folding up its operations any time soon the mission will continue in full compliance with the united nations mandate for as long as it's needed but not to. the transitional leadership has so far rebuffed the idea of deploying u.n. military observers but did ask that the u.n. help ensure a democratic elections but the fear remains that major presence money and diplomatic support notwithstanding political infighting and tribal strife could threaten the country's for their prospects. for cross top r t. ok if i can get it daniel in denver i was going to the person had to get up early yesterday this program we just heard in that report. the libyans don't have a lot of. same material to work with to start building

a new society how optimistic are you that the civil strife will come to an end because as we're all reminded it's still very much a tribal society could aki want to keep it that way conquering divide. is what do libyans have in common except for maybe the vast majority of them are very happy that could offer you is gone. well they certainly have their language in common they have their history in common i think the challenge is going to be and we've seen this already that along tribal and religious and provincial lines there are divides deep divides in libyan society and one of the concerns that i have is that it's unclear exactly who is leading the charge here exactly what the composition of the new council will be how long the transitional government will be in power and what it will ultimately look like it's really nice to have a change of government after forty two years the real challenge is what comes next and i don't really think that anybody knows the answer lindsey if i go to you in

london one of the things that the nato powers keep in mind of a as they met in paris is that they realize that they didn't have a follow up plan after their invasions of afghanistan in iraq do you think that the nato allies have thought that far ahead in this case is that ok they have military control of the country or they have sarah gets there now do they know what to do next me and can they build help build a nation. well no i don't think they can nato is a military operation it's a military organization the british and french in particular have played a very big role in initiating this this intervention and in backing out the fact that the libya conference the conference is chaired by france's president sarkozy and prime minister here in britain david cameron tells you exactly how much the west intervening here but they don't have any clear plan nato many of the people there now backing

a people who who were injured that his government to work for gadhafi only a few months ago so what they wanted to do was regime change but as we've seen with afghanistan in iraq they are absolutely no good at nation building and nor can they be because it isn't their nation eric i'm going to you in toronto over the last few months we've seen a lot of infighting within the rebel camp expression one of its commanders that was mysteriously murdered do you think that the nato allies really know who they're dealing with here is are these people that you can be trusted because there's a lot of doubts about their background as we heard a lot of them used to work for good after himself and there is the element the islam element in its connections to terror networks. peter that nato knows some of the members of this new transitional council because it put them in in place their french intelligence played a leading role in cobbling together the transition council and putting people with

whom we had or britain semi's six or the us cia had a long relationship many of them libyan exile son or members of his government so knows them it does not as you brought up know who these murky nationalists and is lois who until recently were guarded quoque terrorism quote remember george bush. khadafi as again i quote our valuable ally in the war against terrorism well he was speaking of about the militants in benghazi who can control cultivated for a long time by the british so they just don't know they're hoping for the best but you know something is always of the men with the guns make the rules and this war was not won by the libyan people as portrayed in the media was run by special forces from britain and france and by their air forces and i think they will have

a very important say in the make up of the future libyan government can you have any worries or said something you're right and jump in. you know i just wanted to add something to what erica said and that is that my understanding is that the qatari government was actually central to the financing of the rebel movement and one has to ask oneself what role they may expect to play going forward i mean they made this investment in the rebel movement fully expecting something in return and they're in a position to be able to utilize that influence the question is how will that manifest itself and what are the expectations that nato is going to have for their own involvement in this process that lindsey well daniel kind of got ahead of me there there's been a lot of investment in here into this war are a lot of people would say it was illegal and now there's going to be table back and are you worried about that because we are just as was mentioned the qatari government was heavily involved nato is going to make probably some make defense

and military decisions security decisions on the ground even though they say they won't they probably will because they need investment in it i mean it doesn't just divide libyans more than bring them together. well that's that's one of the very big dangers of the there was a tweet which went out on twitter the other week saying people might think it's a good long time to get rid of that very big they can take even longer to get rid of night so we have to remember we have some history here this isn't the first time we've had an intervention that happened in afghanistan we were told ten years ago the they would build a new nation the war is at its worst now all this month we've just had was the bloodiest war for american troops in the whole of bloodiest month for american troops in the whole of the war we've had it in the wrong way we were told there would be stupid democracy virtually no iraq will say today that they live in a stable and democratic country and the danger is that nato will go in there isn't

there there are troops on the ground even though the the various governments deny this they want to send their north troops so far the t.n.c. have told them that they don't want u.n. troops in but this may change or if there's more instability in the country there may be more and more pressure on the libyans to accept foreign troops and i think a lesson we have to learn is a lesson we try to put very very strongly to our government is that you cannot bring democracy by bombing by invasion by foreign powers who actually as a matter of fact have a very very bad record in libya among other countries in africa for their own colonial past you cannot possibly do it and when you look at what the real issues here are about they're about regime change that's what they wanted to do was to get rid of gadhafi they've got rid of could have now we will see the true color of it already in britain it's been announced there was

a rental unit set up to deal with the well and the all companies the various governments the secret services they will all be involved in these trying to get their share of. the action over the next few months it will not play for the benefit of the libyan people ok. if i could go to you yes go ahead go ahead i would like to. i just wrote recently in my column that is the ultimate aphrodisiac and oil is very big you know as we're hearing all this this guff about humanitarian missions and protecting civilians what's really happening is french companies have stolen a march on the brits and the rest of the western europe there in libya now they're trying to corner a lot of the rebuilding. from damage caused by nato bombing or by lack of infrastructure in libya and this is a gold rush this is a new klondike there's a huge amounts of money there arms to be sold there are roads to be built so

they're rushing in the qatari it's interesting story you know i was i interviewed spent an evening with gadhafi back in the late one nine hundred eighty s. and he told me he said you know he said the gulf arabs are the saudis and the gulf arabs he says there are a bunch of old ladies and skirts and if you know their mentality you know this really burned them up because he said a number of times and one of the reasons i think that the kadar qatar's very smart people that they really wanted to get revenge arab style khadafi for insulting them and for insulting the arab leaders jump in here we're going to a short break and after that sharper what could you do or discussion on libya's future state party.

nineteen sixty six i think because it's the same say some things i was doing and the reason we were given for there were no personal protests. during the vietnam war an antiwar movement emerged that the course of history this movement didn't take place on college campuses but in their ships to penetrate elite military colleges like west point spread throughout the battlefields of vietnam. today few people know about the g.i. movement against the war in vietnam. ask the army will we set free the army or fun travel and adventure but it really meant.

the latest in science. from. the future. can. welcome back across calculable to remind you we're talking about libya in the post gadhafi era. ok let's see if i can go back to you in london. you mentioned nato earlier on in the program and nato is gloating right now it actually did something thanks it's actually done something successful after the quagmire of afghanistan. does this worry you that will give it gives it it gives itself

a feather in the hat and say look we actually can do things that are efficient and we can work together when of course the americans were very critical of their dragging their feet most of the members of nato didn't really want to participate in this. well of course nato is a is a u.s. led operation there's absolutely no question about this you have to ask why the north atlantic treaty organization intervenes in south asia or north africa and various other places which have nothing to do with the north atlantic this was set up after the second world war in opposition to the warsaw pact countries the warsaw pact was dissolved some years ago but nato is becoming more militaristic is carrying more and more money from particularly countries like the u.s. and britain in order to carry out its operations i think is very worrying they're all saying this is a great success this rehabilitates the whole notion of humanitarian intervention it does nothing of the so many thousands of people have been killed in libya including

many prior nato bombing and also we should remember we heard exactly this before in two thousand and one and two thousand and three when again afghanistan and iraq were said to be success stories very few people now claim either of those was a success you look at what has happened in these countries often and actually ok you can repeat will have got no better off ok then you go right ahead. you know i have to take a couple of issues with what lindsey said there's no question that this campaign would not have been successful without the participation of the united states in terms of drone activity intelligence activity etc cruise missiles that nato didn't have and didn't contribute i would also make a comparison in terms of what nato accomplished in kosovo in seventy eight days versus what nato has accomplished in around one hundred fifty days and libya in kosovo there was an intervention force that followed there so far has been no

intervention force on the part of nato the question is will there be and you know ultimately there were far fewer cows casualties nato casualties there were about ten in this conflict versus about five hundred nato on the question of whether it achieved its aims i would have to say you did ultimately achieve its aims but it only achieved its aims as a result of the contribution of money to the rebels from a variety of sources in conjunction with what the military was able to achieve through daytona ok ok as you go right ahead you were really i didn't hear it and you know lindsey if you're here i should what was meant simply was made to be protecting civilians it was not meant to be regime change it was absolutely clear from the very beginning that that was that was actually what was me and to compare it to kosovo is a course of ok and in some sense that's the right is simply it's simply not the case it's one of the same one of the poorest areas of europe with senses of prostitution drug running gun running i mean this is holding the kind of state wait

a minute not so subtle and you actually well i'm sorry and if you look at here closely. he says his legacy is and i'm seeing the argument that he's there selling selling policy ok erika had in toronto. you know please enough with the sort of propaganda from you lindsay kosovo there was a risk there were eight hundred thousand pena and civilians who were being driven out of their homes in the dead of winter and many of them would have died from exposure this is not about body. language was very much let me finish let me finish. nato did the right thing the united states did the right thing by intervening in this real humanitarian crisis libya is something entirely different and what we're seeing is a return of the old colonial powers in north africa france i am totally and spain.

and they are and they are rival they are notating against each other already to see who gets control the french are ahead the italians are very dismayed now that the french may be gobbling up only golden eggs in libya so we can compare the two things together ok daniel. i think i hear some one more thing on go ahead jump in go ahead. no i said i simply want to do that let's not you know delude ourselves as to what this is and what it is i'm sure it started out with humanitarian objectives in libya there can be no doubt given what's going on in the neighborhood what it was going to end up being and i don't think there are very many people who are going to cry about qaddafi leaving the scene and i should point out he hasn't left yet left the scene and there are still some important battles that must be one for the rebels to rightly claim that this this game is over

lindsey who would want to stay with his nato theme if you think that syria is next i mean maybe if you were in boulder now i mean if you look at bahrain i mean there's so many other humanitarian issues in the region but it's all based on geopolitical interests ok and i think certainly everyone it's obvious oil was at stake here in libya there's no denying that we'll see where it goes but you know the crackdown in syria is you know then nato should go in there or maybe it should go live maybe it should liberate bahrain from the start from saudi control ok i mean we're probably looking. for something. that isn't going to happen of course but happen in a hurry i don't think they won't go into do anything to criticize the saudis or or indeed bahrain the american fleet is in bahrain they could have intervened if they wanted to at the time they had no interest in doing so there are clearly now people who will say they should intervene in syria i think many of the nato pounces will

still be very wary about this but that can train very quickly i think if we understand libya i don't agree it was about just simply revenge on the part of the gulf states against gadhafi although they didn't they obviously didn't like him but i think it was much more that if you look at the timing of libya it coincided with a crackdown by the saudis and the bahraini were found in bahrain and it was an attempt by the western powers to retake control both of the tunis is a. to overthrow dictators and they will do everything that they can to maintain that including if they think they can get away with it intervention in syria however the big problem i think that is that this would then lead to a much bigger war there's already tensions between israel and egypt in recent weeks that age it and i think that even the british and french and the americans are nervous about a direct intervention in syria what i have no doubt they all already into you know

you're right i understand if you were to try to try to overthrow it do you think is going you know you first said ok you know i simply wanted to add that you know it's very clear that the various powers in the west are extremely stretched militarily economically financially i don't think anyone really thinks that these are going to be wars of liberation led by the west waving the flag these you know the solutions to these problems have to come indigenously they have to come from the locals and the people to the extent that the west may be able to add something valuable along those lines that's consistent with what they're trying to achieve fine but you know living in the united states right now and in many other places in the west you know we don't really have the resources to continue to do this and there isn't the political will on the part of a lot of voters in the west certainly in the united states to do it either so what

do you think. you think i mean i don't think anybody in the western united states and in the nato countries were ever asked if they want to go into this war i mean i seem to remember we got into this war over the weekend at one point ok eric you wanted to say something go ahead. yes i first of all regarding syria look the u.s. the saudis and the israelis have been trying to overthrow the syrian government since the days of the bush administration money was voted for this by congress and there are study reports and son of the armed groups going into syria or coming out of lebanon and they were trained by western intelligence services and there's a fight going on i'm not sure that yes the u.s. will intervene or the west will intervene in a full scale war in syria because the syrians unlike the libyans unlike the iraqis unlike the afghans can shoot back they have been obsolete but it's still fairly tough army and it will not be a cakewalk and there is everybody's worry that what will happen if syria does

collapse and will take over the government it may be like libya with the islamists taking over but look the west is using humanitarian intervention that's its new banner for getting involved abroad counterterrorism is passe humanitarianism is rules and we'll see other humanitarian interventions when and where it suits the interests of the west or other power block linsey if i go to. afghanistan and the mujahideen which we had been funded by the united states the cia they came back to haunt the united states with the taliban regime do you worry about something like that happening with libya. what's already happening in libya that there are actually people fighting there who were trained by al qaida who've been in afghanistan and this is of course kept very quiet about but this is something which is already going on of course this is one of the very likely things that would happen and i had absolutely no time for gadhafi and i recognize that many many

libyans are pleased to see him gone and i think he is effectively gone but the truth of the matter is that you cannot just go into countries overthrow the regime this has to be a process which the people of those countries themselves undertake as they have done in egypt as they have turned into nazir and as they want to do in a number of other countries which are being prevented from doing such as in bahrain and if you don't do it like that if you think you can take these things in the eyes of the british empire used to do in the way that the americans now talk about with their imperial overstretch then you are creating a situation where you will not have real democracy will not have real freedom you won't have exactly the kind of chaos and disasters plus you will have the same people running these countries you know who the old songs in these are crazy or the who so meet me old boss the same as the new meet the new boss the same as the old

boss says what's going on ok peter i go to really cringe and shake his hand eric ten seconds. libya is never known democracy since the days of the roman empire there's nothing in that looks like democracy and i don't think we'll be seeing it any time all right thank you very much all right many thanks and i guess the day in london denver and in toronto and thanks to the viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time a member of crosstalk rolls. in and. hungry for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on the party.

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