it's. good to have you with us this hour this is our t. top stories now turkey expels the israeli ambassador and cuts military ties with tel aviv over the country's refusal to apologize for the deadly raid on the gaza pound for to the last may downgrade follows the leaked findings of a u.n. investigation into the attack had reportedly slams israel for using excessive force . live in rebels close in on gadhafi the last remaining stronghold with the colonel himself a man on the run and explore one of his secrets bunkers revealing that the fugitives escape route could stretch way beyond the rebels' reach. and starving the regime a new round of sanctions against syria is agreed by the e.u.

targeting the country's oil exports which accounts for twenty five percent of its entire income and critics say the book's only doing it now because it feels void by the success in securing libya's vast oil reserves. for more news from me in just minutes from now but now it's time for pete involves the great show crosstalk where his guests discuss life in libya after the death. live. live. can. blow him away welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle reasons for optimism for more

uncertainty and violence with the end of the khadafi regime one of the possible futures of libya can the country move from civil war to stable and democratic society or will it fall down the path of another afghanistan or iraq libya can. start. to cross-talk libya after gadhafi i'm joined by lindsey german and london she is a national conveyor of stop the war coalition and then for we cross to daniel wagner he is c.e.o. of country wrists aleutians and in toronto we go to eric margolis he is an award winning journalist and author of war at the top of the world the struggle for afghanistan and asia all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's look at some of the challenges facing the new libya. following six months of iraq about all the grip the world's attention the arab spring has produced another significant outcome

the toppling of libya's kurds our theme may have come as a surprise to almost everyone now the least of which were the rebels who fought the forty two year regime. but it's the victory fanfare settles the libyans are facing a far more trying challenge that of proving they can create an alternative to could south israel we understand that we're looking to look at the situation look in the local civil affairs office so we are starting from on with legal point. here. in this situation the country is transitional council has been lobbying foreign governments to unfreeze billions of dollars and conduct his assets to jumpstart the country's economy and the international community has afforded libya the benefit of the doubt while there will be huge challenges ahead one of the positive aspects here is that the libyans are the ones who are undertaking the regime change and the ones leading the transition. there's

no sign however that nato which sustained the campaign against gadhafi forces will be folding up its operations any time soon the mission will continue in full compliance with the united nations mandate for as long as it's needed but not to. the transitional leadership has so far rebuffed the idea of deploy u.n. military observers but did ask that the u.n. help ensure a democratic elections but here remains made a presence money and diplomatic support not withstanding political infighting and tribal strife could threaten the country's for their prospects marcia char and i for cross talk r.t. . ok if i can go to daniel in denver i was going to the person had to get up early just for this program we just heard in that report. the libyans don't have a lot of. same material to work with to start building a new society how optimistic are you that the civil strife will come to an end

because as we're all reminded it's still very much a tribal society khadafi want to keep it that way conquer and divide. is what do libyans have in common except for maybe the vast majority of them are very happy that could offer you is gone. well they certainly have their language in common they have their history in common i think the challenge is going to be and we've seen this already that all along tribal and religious and provincial lines there are divides the divides in libyan society and one of the concerns that i have is that it's unclear exactly who is leading the charge here exactly what the composition of the new council will be how long the transitional government will be in power and what it will ultimately look like it's really nice to have a change of government after forty two years the real challenge is what comes next and i don't really think that anybody knows the answer lindsey if i go to you in london one of the things that nato powers keep in mind if they as they met in paris

is that they realize that they didn't have a follow up plan after their invasions of afghanistan and iraq do you think that the nato allies have thought that far ahead in this case is that ok they have military control of the country or they have sarah gets there now do they know what to do next me and can they build help build a nation. well no i don't think they can nato is a military operation it's a military organization the british and french in particular have played a very big role in initiating this this intervention and backing up the fact that the libya conference the conference is chaired by france's president sarkozy and prime minister here in britain david cameron tells you exactly how much the west intervening here but they don't have any clear plan and they don't many of the people there now backing a people who who were injured after his government to work for gadhafi only

a few months ago so what they wanted to do was regime change but as we've seen with afghanistan and iraq they oh absolutely no good at nation building nor can they be able to do. erica if i go to you in toronto over the last few months we've seen a lot of infighting within the rebel camp expression one of its commanders was mysteriously murdered do you think that the nato allies really know who they're doing with here is are these people that you can be trusted because there's a lot of doubts about their background just as we heard a lot of used to work for gadhafi himself and there is the element the islam element in its connections to terror networks. peter that nato knows some of the members of this new transitional council because it put them in in place their french intelligence played a leading role in kabul and together the transition council and putting people with

whom we had or britain semi's six or the us cia had a long relationship many of them libyan exile some of the members of his government so in those them it does not as you brought up know these murky nationalists and islam as who until recently were regarded as quote terrorism quote remember george bush. again i quote our valuable ally in the war against terrorism well he was speaking of about the militants in benghazi who can control cultivated for a long time by the british so they just don't know they're hoping for the best but you know something is always of the men with the guns make the rules and this war was not won by the libyan people as portrayed in the media was run by special forces from britain and france and by their air forces and i think they will have a very important say in the makeup of the future libyan government can you do you

have any worries yourself something you already are jumping. you know i just want to add something to what eric has said and that is that my understanding is that the qatari government was actually central to the financing of the rebel movement and one has to ask oneself what role they may expect to play going forward i mean they made this investment in the rebel movement fully expecting something in return and they're in a position to be able to utilize that influence the question is how will that manifest itself and what are the expectations that nato is going to have for their own involvement in this process lindsey well daniel kind of got ahead of me there there's been a lot of investment in here into this war i lot of people would say it was illegal and now there's going to be paid back and are you worried about that because we mention the qatari government was heavily involved nato is going to make probably some make defense and military decisions security decisions on the ground even

though they say they won't they probably will because they needed investment in it i mean it wouldn't it doesn't just divide the libyans more than bring them together . well that's that's just one of the very pretenders. there was a tweet which went out on twitter the other week saying people might think it's a good long time to get rid of that very big they can take even longer to get rid of nato and we have to remember we have some history here this isn't the first time we've had an intervention that happened in afghanistan we were told ten years ago they would build a new nation the war is at its worst now over all this month that we've just had was the bloodiest war for american troops in the whole plot is not for american troops in the whole of the war we've had here in iraq where we were told there would be superiority democracy virtually no iraq will say today that they live in a stable and democratic country and the danger is that nato will go in there isn't

there there are troops on the ground even though the the various governments deny this they want to send in more troops so far the t.n.c. have told them that they don't want u.n. troops in but this may change or if there's more instability in the country there may be more and more pressure on the libyans to accept foreign troops and i think a lesson we have to learn is a lesson we try to put very very strongly to our government is that you cannot bring democracy by balmain by invasion by foreign powers who actually as a matter of fact have a very very bad record in libya among other countries in africa for their old colonial past you cannot possibly do it and when you look at what the real issues here are about they're about regime change that's what they wanted to do was to get rid of gadhafi they've got rid of could have free and now we will see the true color of it already in britain it's been announced that there was a huge racial unit set out to deal with all al and the all companies the various

governments the secret services they will all be involved in these trying to get their share of. the action over the next few months it will not play for the benefit of the libyan people ok. eric if i could go to you yes go ahead go ahead i would like to. i just wrote recently in my column is the ultimate out for the ziac. oil is very big you know as we're hearing all this this guff about humanitarian missions and protecting civilians was really happening is french companies have stolen a march on the brits and the rest of the western europe there in libya and now they're trying to corner a lot of the rebuilding. from damage caused by nato bombing or by the lack of infrastructure in libya and this is a gold rush this is a new klondike there's a huge amounts of money there arms to be sold there are roads to be built so

they're rushing in the qatari it's interesting story you know i was interviewed spent an evening with gadhafi back in the late one nine hundred eighty s. and he told me he said you know he said the gulf arabs is the saudis and the gulf arabs he said they're a bunch of old ladies and skirts and if you know your mentality you know this really burned them up gadhafi said a number of times and one of the reasons i think that the qatari qatar's very smart people that they really wanted to get revenge arab style khadafi for insulting them and for insulting the arab leaders jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that sharp recall could get more discussion on libya's future state party.

i got out of the military in one thousand sixty six i got over because the things i saw the things i was doing and there's a reason said we were given for it there were no it was a personal protest. during the vietnam war in a two war movie the march that alter the course of history this movement didn't take place on college campuses but in berets and on ships penetrated elite military colleges like west point and it spread throughout the battlefields of vietnam gets a day few people know about the g.i. movement against the war and. ask the army we always said free the army or fun travel and adventure but it really meant we are.

bringing you the latest in science and technology from the realm. of the future covered. ok. welcome back to crossfire thank you for the call to remind you we're talking about libya in the post gadhafi era. ok back to you in london. you mentioned nato earlier on in the program and nato is gloating right now it actually did something thinks it's actually done something successful after the crag mire of afghanistan. does this worry you that will give

it gives it it gives itself out there and say look we actually can do things that are efficient and we can work together when of course the americans were very critical of their dragging their feet most of the members of nato didn't really want to participate in this. of course nato is a u.s. led operation there's absolutely no question about this you have to ask why the north atlantic treaty organization intervenes in south asia or north africa various other places which are nothing to do with the north atlantic this was set up after the second world war in opposition to the warsaw pact countries the warsaw pact was dissolved some years ago but nato is becoming more militaristic it's getting more and more money from particularly countries like the u.s. and britain in order to carry out its operations but i think it's very worrying they're all saying this is a great success this rehabilitates the whole notion of humanitarian intervention it

does nothing of the saw many thousands of people have been killed in libya including many by nato bombing and also we should remember we heard exactly this before in two thousand and two thousand and three when again afghanistan and iraq are said to be success stories very few people now claim oliver of those was a success you look at what happens in these countries of internationally ok people have got no better off ok there you go right ahead. you know i have to take a couple of issues with what lindsey said there's no question that this campaign would not have been successful without the participation of the united states in terms of drone activity intelligence activity etc cruise missiles that nato didn't have and didn't contribute i would also make a comparison in terms of what nato accomplished in kosovo in seventy eight days versus what nato has accomplished in around one hundred fifty days in libya in

kosovo there was an intervention force that followed there so far has been no intervention force on the part of nato the question is will there be and you know ultimately there were far fewer casualties nato casualties there were about ten in this conflict versus about five hundred in nato on the question of whether it is cheap its aims i would have to say you did ultimately achieve its aims but it only achieved its aims as a result of the contribution of money to the rebels from a variety of sources in conjunction with what the military was able to achieve through data ok ok lindsey graham and you were really i mean i know here i mean you know their lives even if you are a should was made was made to be protecting civilians it was not meant to be regime change it was absolutely clear from the very beginning that that was that was actually what was at me and to compare that kosovo's no kosovo again something that story is simply is simply not the case is one of the same one of the poorest areas

of europe with senses of prostitution drug running gun money i mean this is holding the kind of state wait a minute not so little and you actually well i'm sorry and if you look at here clearly. this is his legacy is. selling selling party parts ok. you know please enough with the sort of propaganda from you lindsay kosovo there was a risk there were eight hundred thousand albanian civilians who were being driven out of their homes in the dead of winter and many of them would have died from exposure this is not about body. probably which was very very all right let me finish let me finish. nato did the right thing the united states did the right thing by intervening in this real humanitarian crisis libya is something entirely different and what we're seeing is

a return of the old colonial powers in north africa france. italy and spain. and they are and they are rival they are notating against each other already to see who gets control the french are ahead the italians are very dismayed now that the french may be gobbling up only golden eggs in libya so we can compare the two things together ok daniel people benito i think i hear some one more thing on go ahead jump in go ahead. no i said i simply want to do that let's not you know delude ourselves as to what this is and what it is i'm sure it started out with humanitarian objectives in libya there can be no doubt given what's going on in the neighborhood what it was going to end up being and i don't think there are very many people who are going to cry about leaving the scene and i should point out he hasn't left yet left the scene and there are still some important battles that must

be won for the rebels to rightly claim that this this game is over when see i do what i want to see which is nato theme you think syria is next i mean maybe we need to feel emboldened now i mean if you look at bahrain i mean there's so many other humanitarian issues in the region but it's it's all based on geopolitical interest ok and i think certainly everyone it's obvious oil was at stake here in libya there's no denying that we'll see where it goes but you know there's the crackdown in syria is them you know then nato should go in there or maybe it should go that maybe it should liberate bahrain from the south from saudi control ok i mean we're trying to look at. that isn't going to happen of course but happen in a hurry i don't think they won't go into do anything to criticize the saudis or right in the american fleet is in power right now they could have intervened if they wanted to any time they had no interest and so there are clearly now people

who will say they should intervene in syria i think many of the. houses will still be very wary about this but that can train very quickly i think if we understand libya i don't agree it was about just simply revenge on the part of the gulf states against gadhafi although they didn't they obviously didn't like him but i think it was much more that if you look at the timing of libya it coincided with the crackdown by the saudis and the power in the world family in bahrain and it was an attempt by the western powers to retake control both to the tune this is a. overthrow their dictators and they will do everything that they can to maintain that including if they think they can get away with it intervention in syria however the pig problem i think they is that this would then lead to a much bigger war there's already tensions between israel and egypt in recent weeks that age it and i think that even the british and french and the americans are

nervous about it's about intervention in syria although i have no doubt they are already in syria you know it's a record day and something to try to overthrow. the regime is going you know you'll first said ok you know i simply wanted to add that you know it's very clear that the various powers in the west are extremely stretch militarily economically financially i don't think anyone really thinks that these are going to be wars of liberation led by the west waving the flag these you know the solutions to these problems have to come indigenously they have to come from the locals and the people to the extent that the west may be able to add something valuable along those lines that's consistent with what they're trying to achieve fine but you know living in the united states right now and in many other places in the west you know we don't really have the resources to continue to do this and there isn't the political will

on the part of a lot of voters in the west certainly in the united states to do it either so what do you think is what do you think i mean i don't think anybody in the western united states and the nato countries were ever asked if we wanted to go into this war or not i mean i seem to remember we got into this war over the weekend at one point ok eric you wanted to say something go ahead. yes i first of all regarding syria. look the u.s. the saudis and the israelis have been trying to overthrow the syrian government since the days of the bush administration money was voted for this by congress and there are steady reports that some of the armed groups going into syria are coming out of lebanon and they were trained by western intelligence services and there's a fight going on i'm not sure that the u.s. will intervene or the west will intervene in a full scale war in syria because the syrians unlike the libyans unlike the iraqis unlike the afghans can shoot back they have been obsolete but it's still fairly

tough army and it will not be a cakewalk and there is everybody is worried that what will happen if syria does call absolute take over the government it may be like libya with the islamists taking over but look the west is using humanitarian intervention that's its new banner for getting involved abroad counterterrorism is passe humanitarianism is rules a will see other humanitarian interventions when and where it suits the interests of the west or other power blocs lindsay finally. after afghanistan. funded by the united states the cia they came back to haunt the united states with the taliban regime do you worry about something like that happening with libya. that's already happening in libya where there are actually people fighting there who were trained by al qaida who've been in afghanistan and this is of course kept very quiet about but this is something which is already going on of course this is

one of the very likely things that would happen. i had absolutely no time for gadhafi and i recognize that many many libyans are pleased to see him gone and i think he is effectively gone but the truth of the matter is that you cannot just go into countries overthrow the regime this has to be a process which the people of those countries and cells undertake as they have done in egypt as they return in chile's year and as they want to do in a number of other countries which are being prevented from doing such as in bahrain and if you don't do it like that if you think you can take these things in the value of the british empire used to do in the way that the americans now talk about with their imperial overstretch then you are creating a situation where you will not have real sinatra's thing will not have real freedom you will have exactly the kind of chaos and disasters cost you will have the same people running these countries you know the old song from here today is here the

who song meet me of course the same as the new meet the new boss same as the old boss that's what's going on ok here i go to really thank you for your hand eric ten seconds trippy. libya has never known the knockers seasons the days of the roman empire there's nothing in the looks like democracy and i don't think we'll be seeing it any time outside thank you very much all right many thanks to my guest today in london denver and in toronto and thanks to the viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember cross-talk rules. can't . compete. for the full slot we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers.

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wealthy british style some good some not the best but i'm not surprised.