other places in the city if you truly wanted to access adult material. you had i reached a hundred of these different available shops in the city one of the blushing kind may start staying away from libraries if the rules don't change one lovers can be put in the corner but no one can keep them out for now. r t u york alright well that does it for now from one of the stories we cover get r t dot com slash usa i'll be back here at seven which means you have about an hour and a half to go learn about biology at your public library. i got out of the military in ninety sixty six i got over because the things i saw the things i was doing and that's the reason he said we were given for doing it was

a personal protest. during the vietnam war i mean it's a war movement emerged that altered the course of history this movement didn't take place on college campuses but in berets and on ships penetrated elite military colleges like west point and it spread throughout the battlefields of vietnam yet today few people know about the g.i. movement against the war in vietnam. after the army we always said free the army or fun travel and adventure but it really meant to be harmed.

download the official. johnny phone the i pod touch from the i choose ops to. look like on the go. video on demand on season one the old comes an r.s.s. feeds are now in the palm of your. pushing on the dot com. more news today violence is well this again flared up the first these are the images the world seeing from history thumps had an. operation the day. the earth.

can't. start. to. think. logan welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle reasons for optimism for more uncertainty and violence with the end of the khadafi regime what are the possible futures of libya can the country move from civil war to stable and democratic society or would fall down the path of another afghanistan or iraq. can. still. cross talk libya after gadhafi i'm joined by lindsey german in london she is a national conveyor of stop the war coalition in denver we crossed again you're wagner he is c.e.o. of country wrists aleutians and in toronto we go to eric margolis he is an award

winning journalist and author of war at the top of the world the struggle for afghanistan and asia all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's look at some of the challenges facing the new libya. following six months of a rocky battle that gripped the world's attention the arab spring has produced another significant outcome the toppling of libya's comes out they may have come as a surprise to almost everyone not the least of which were the rebels who fought the forty two year regime. but as the victory fanfare settles libyans are facing a far more trying challenge that is proving they can create an alternative to could south israel when the standoff we walking the institution for civil society is so well starting from. or. in this situation the country's transitional council has been lobbying foreign

governments to unfreeze billions of dollars in qaddafi's assets to jumpstart the country's economy and the international community has afforded libya the benefit of the doubt well there will be huge challenges ahead one of the positive aspects here is that the libyans are the ones who are undertaking the regime change and the ones leading the transition there's no sign however that nato which sustained the campaign against gadhafi forces will be folding up its operations any time soon the mission will continue in full compliance with the united nations mandate for as long as it's needed but not a day longer the transitional leadership has so far rebuffed the idea of deploying u.n. military observers but did ask that the u.n. help ensure a democratic elections but the fear remains that major presence money and diplomatic support not withstanding political infighting and tribal strife could

threaten their countries for their prospects matia chair and i for cross stop r.t. . ok if i can get a deal in denver i was going to the president had to get up earlier for this program we just heard in that report. the libyans don't have a lot of. same material to work with to start building a new society how optimistic are you that the civil strife will come to an end because as we're all reminded it's still very much a tribal society could aki want to keep it that way conquer and divide is what do libyans have in common except for maybe the vast majority of them are very happy that could alfie is gone. well they certainly have their language in common they have their history in common i think the challenge is going to be and we've seen this already that along tribal and religious and provincial lines there are divides deep divides in libyan society and one of the concerns that i have is that it's

unclear exactly who is leading the charge here exactly what the composition of the new council will be how long the transitional government will be in power and what it will ultimately look like it's really nice to have a change of government after forty two years the real challenge is what comes next and i don't really think that anybody knows the answer lindsey if i go to you in london one of the things that nato powers keep in mind of a as they met in paris is that they realize that they didn't have a follow up plan after their invasions of afghanistan and iraq do you think that the nato allies have thought that far ahead in this case is that ok they have military control of the country or they have sarah gets there now do they know what to do next me and can they build help build a nation. well no i don't think they can nato is a military operation it's a military organization the british and french in particular have played a very big role in initiating this this intervention and in backing out the fact

that the libya conference the conference is chaired by france's president sarkozy and prime minister here in britain david cameron tells you exactly how much the west intervening here but they don't have any clear plan and they don't many of the people there now backing up people who who were in good office government who work for gadhafi only a few months ago so what they wanted to do was regime change but as we've seen with afghanistan or iraq they oh absolutely no good at nation building nor can they be because it isn't their nation eric if i go to you in toronto over the last few months we've seen a lot of infighting within the rebel camp expression one of its commanders that was mysteriously murdered do you think that the nato allies really know who they're doing with here is are these people that you can be trusted because there's a lot of doubts about their backgrounds as we heard

a lot of them used to work for gadhafi himself and there is the element the islamic element in its connections to terra networks. peter the nato knows some of the members of this new transitional council because it put them in in place their french intelligence played a leading role in cobbling together the transition council and putting people with whom we had or britain's m i six or the us cia had a long relationship many of them libyan exile son of members of his government so in those them it does not as you brought up know who these murky nationalists and islam as who until recently were regarded as quote terrorism quote remember george bush lorded qaddafi as again i quote our valuable ally in the war against terrorism well he was speaking of about the militants in benghazi who can

control cultivated for a long time by the british so they just don't know they're hoping for the best but you know something is there we see the men with the guns make the rules this war was not won by the libyan people as portrayed in the media was run by special forces from britain and france and by their air forces and i think they will have a very important say in the makeup of the future libyan government. do you have any worries yourself something you already are jumping. yeah i just wanted to add something to what you said and that is that my understanding is that the qatari government was actually central to the financing of the rebel movement and one has to ask oneself what role they may expect to play going forward i mean they made this investment in the rebel movement fully expecting something in return and they're in a position to be able to utilise that influence the question is how will that manifest itself and what are the expectations that nato is going to have for their

own involvement in this process lindsey well daniel kind of got ahead of me there there's been a lot of investment in here into this war i lot of people would say it was illegal now there's going to take a back and are you worried about that because we just as was mentioned the qatari government was heavily involved nato is going to make probably some great defense and military decisions security decisions on the ground even though they say they won't they probably will because they made it invested in it i mean it doesn't just divide the libyans more than bring them together. well that's that's just one of the very pretenders. there was a tweet which went out on twitter the other week saying people might think it's a good long time to get rid of that very big they can take even longer to get rid of nato and we have to remember we have some history here this isn't the first time we've had an intervention that happened in afghanistan we were told ten years ago they would build a new nation the war is at its worst now all this month that we've just had was the

bloodiest war for american troops in the whole plot this month for american troops in the whole of the war we had in the wrong way we were told there would be stability to mock recy virtually no iraq he will say today that they live in a stable and democratic country and the danger is that nato will go in there isn't there there are troops on the ground even though the the various governments deny this they want to send their north troops so far the t.n.c. have told them that they don't want u.n. troops in but this may change or if there's more instability in the country there may be more and more pressure on the libyans to accept foreign troops and i think a lesson we have to learn is a lesson we tried to put very very strongly to our government is that you cannot bring democracy by balmain by invasion by foreign powers who actually as

a matter of fact have a very very bad record in libya among other countries in africa for their old colonial past you cannot possibly do and when you look at what the real issues here are about there are about regime change that's what they wanted to do was to get rid of gadhafi they've got rid of could have now we will see the true color of it already in britain it's been announced that there was a rental unit set up to deal with all well and the all companies the various governments the secret services they will all be involved in these trying to get their share of. the action over the next few months it will not pay for the benefit of the libyan people ok. eric if i could go to you here yes go ahead go ahead i would like to. i just wrote recently in my columns all as it is the ultimate aphrodisiac. oil is very big you know as we're hearing all this this guff about humanitarian missions of protecting civilians what's really happening is

french companies have stolen a march on the brits and the rest of the western europe there in libya and now they're trying to corner a lot of the rebuilding. from damage caused by nato bombing or by the lack of infrastructure in libya and this is a gold rush this is a new klondike there's a huge amounts of money there arms to be sold there are roads to be built so they're rushing in the qatari. interesting story you know i was i interviewed spent an evening with gadhafi back in the late one nine hundred eighty s. and he told me he said you know he said the gulf arabs are the saudis and the gulf arabs he said they're a bunch of old ladies and skirts and if you know your mentality you know this really burn them up cut off he said a number of times and one of the reasons i think that the qatari qatar's very smart people that they really wanted to get revenge arab style khadafi for insulting them

and for insulting the arab leaders all right let me jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that sharper what could you do or discussion and look you future state parties. wealthy british. type of. market. that's. what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cars are there are no holds barred the global financial headlines to

come is a report. to see a story. you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything is. hard welcome to the big picture. of the world to. bring you the latest in science and technology from around russia. the future of coverage. if you can think the. welcome back to crossfire if you'd like to remind you we're talking about libya in the post gadhafi era. it is.

ok to find go back to you in london. you mentioned nato earlier on in the program and nato is gloating right now it actually did something thinks it's actually done something successful after the quagmire of afghanistan. does this worry you that will give it gives it to gives itself a feather in the hat and say look we actually can do things that are efficient and we can work together and of course the americans were very critical of their dragging their feet most of the members of nato didn't really want to participate in this well of course nato is a u.s. led operation there's absolutely no question about this you have to ask why the north atlantic treaty organization intervenes in south asia or north africa various other places which have nothing to do with the north atlantic this was set up after

the second world war in opposition to the warsaw pact countries the warsaw pact was dissolved some years ago but nato is becoming more militaristic is getting more and more money from particularly countries like the u.s. and britain in order to carry out its operations i think it's very worrying they're all saying this is a great success this rehabilitates the whole notion of humanitarian intervention it does nothing of the so many thousands of people have been killed in libya including many prime nato bombing and also we should remember we heard exactly this before in two thousand and one and two thousand and three when again afghanistan and iraq were said to be success stories very few people now claim either of those was a success you look at what has happened in this country something and actually ok you can repay people have i've got no better off ok dan you go right ahead. you know i have to take a couple of issues with what lindsey said there's no question that this campaign

would not have been successful without the participation of the united states in terms of drone activity intelligence activity etc cruise missiles that nato didn't have and didn't contribute i would also make a comparison in terms of what nato accomplished in kosovo in seventy eight days versus what nato has accomplished in around one hundred fifty days in libya in kosovo there was an intervention force that followed there so far has been no intervention force on the part of nato the question is will there be and you know ultimately there were far fewer casualties nato casualties there were about ten in this conflict versus about five hundred in nato and the question of whether it is cheap it seems i would have to say you did ultimately achieve its aims but it only achieved its aims as a result of the contribution of money to the rebels from a variety of sources in conjunction with what the military was able to achieve

through date oh ok ok are you ready and you will realize i mean you know lindsay if you're a should was made so great was made to be protecting civilians it was not meant to be regime change it was absolutely clear from the very beginning that that was that was actually what was at me and to compare it with kosovo so kosovo again some such that's the way it is simply it's simply not the case it's one of the same one of the poorest areas of europe with senses of prostitution drug running gun running i mean this is hopefully the kind of wait a minute not so subtle and you actually well i'm sorry and if you look at here clearly it's not it's his legs he is in the housing market you're selling selling body parts ok eric in toronto. you know please enough with the sort of propaganda from you lindsay kosovo there was a risk there were eight hundred thousand of dany and civilians who are being driven

out of their homes in the dead of winter and many of them would have died from exposure this is not about body parts probably which you know there are very much let me finish let me finish. nato did the right thing the united states did the right thing by intervening in this real humanitarian crisis libya is something entirely different and what we're seeing is a return of the old colonial powers in north africa france. italy and spain. and they are and they are rivals they are notating against each other already to see who gets control the french are ahead the italians are very dismayed now that the french may be gobbling up the golden eggs in libya so we can compare the two things together ok daniel benito i think i hear some one more thing i'll go ahead jump in go ahead. no i said i simply want to do that let's not you

know delude ourselves as to what this is and what it is and sure it started out with humanitarian objectives in libya there can be no doubt given what's going on in the neighborhood what it was going to end up being and i don't think there are very many people who are going to cry about it after leaving the scene and i should point out he hasn't left yet left the scene and there are still some important battles that must be won for the rebels to rightly claim that this this game is over lindsay who want to stay with this nato theme you think that syria is next i mean maybe if you were in boulder now i mean if you look at bahrain i mean there's so many other humanitarian issues in the region but it's it's all based on geopolitical interests ok and i think certainly everyone it's obvious oil was at stake here in libya there's no denying that we'll see where it goes but you know there's a crackdown in syria is you know then nato should go in there or maybe it should go

that maybe it should liberate bahrain from the south from saudi control ok i mean we're trying to look at. something. that isn't going to happen of course but happen in a hurry i don't think they won't go in to do anything to criticize the saudis or or indeed brian the american fleet is in bahrain they could have intervened if they wanted to at the time they had no interest and so there are clearly now people who will say they should intervene in syria i think many of the. houses will still be very wary about this but i'm trying very quickly i think if we understand libya i don't agree it was about just simply revenge on the part of the gulf states against gadhafi although they didn't they obviously didn't like him but i think it was much more that if you look at the timing of the pia it coincided with a crackdown by the saudis and a car in the royal family in bahrain and it was an attempt by the western powers to retake control of the tunis is

a. overthrow dictators and they will do everything that they can to maintain that including if they think they can go away with it intervention in syria however the big problem i think they is that this will then lead to a much bigger war there's already tensions between israel and egypt in recent weeks that age it and i think that even the president and french and the americans are nervous about a direct intervention in syria well i have no doubt they are already into you know it's a record day and standing there to try to try to overthrow it do you think is. going to be on your first. ok i simply wanted to have that you know it's very clear that the various powers in the west are extremely stretch militarily economically financially i don't think anyone really thinks that these are going to be wars of liberation led by the west waving the flag these you know the solutions to these

problems have to come indigenously they have to come from the locals and the people to the extent that the west may be able to add something valuable along those lines that's consistent with what they're trying to achieve fine but you know living in the united states right now and in many other places in the west you know we don't really have the resources to continue to do this and there isn't the political will on the part of a lot of voters in the west certainly in the united states to do it either so what do you think is going to do you think i mean i don't think anybody in the western united states and in the nato countries were ever asked if they wanted to go into this war or not i mean i seem to remember we got into this war over the weekend at one point ok eric you wanted to say something go ahead. yes i first of all regarding syria look the u.s. the saudis and the israelis have been trying to overthrow the syrian government since the days of the bush administration money was voted for this by congress and

there are steady reports that some of the armed groups going into syria are coming out of lebanon and they were trained by western intelligence services and there's a fight going on i'm not sure that the u.s. will intervene or the west will intervene in a full scale war in syria because the syrians unlike the libyans on like the iraqis unlike the afghans shoot back they have been obsolete but it's still fairly tough army and it will not be a cakewalk and there is everybody's worry that what will happen if syria does collapse and will take over the government it may be like libya with the islamists taking over but look the west is using humanitarian intervention that's its new banner for getting involved abroad counterterrorism is passe humanitarianism is rules that will see other humanitarian interventions when and where it suits the interests of the west or other power block linsey if i go to. afghanistan and the

mujahideen which we had been funded by the united states the cia they came back to haunt the united states with the taliban regime do you worry about something like that happening with libya. that's already happening in libya that there are actually people fighting there who were trained by al qaida who've been in afghanistan and this is of course very cautious about but this is something which is already going on of course this is one of the very likely things that would happen. i had absolutely no time for good after. i recognize that many many libyans are pleased to see even gone and i think he is effectively gone but the truth of the matter is that you cannot just go into countries overthrow the regime this has to be a process which the people of those countries themselves undertake as they have done in egypt as they have done in tunis here and as they want to do in a number of other countries which i've been prevented from doing such as in bahrain

and if you don't do it like that if you think you can take these things in the way of the british empire used to do in the way that the americans now talk about with their imperial overstretch then you are creating a situation where you will not have real democracy will not have real freedom you won't have exactly the kind of chaos and disasters plus you will have the same people running these countries you know the old song from here today is you're the buso on meet me an old boss the same as a new meet the new boss same as the old boss says what's going on ok you go to really question thank you for your hand you can shake a strip in. libya has never known the knockers seasons the days of the roman empire there's nothing in the looks like democracy and i don't think we'll be seeing it any time all right thank you very much all right many thanks and i guess a day in london denver and in toronto and thanks to the viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time remember crosstalk rolls. and

you can. still. see.