if we don't have a two state solution if we don't have polish knight we may end up with the palestinians demanding one man one vote because a politician of course is unacceptable which means the end of the jewish and democratic state and i think this is this should be embraced by israel your proposal to accept palestine into sixty seven borders as a legitimate state all right thanks very much for your thoughts archy of eldar chief political commentator for haaretz newspaper in tel aviv. president barack obama has presented his much anticipated jobs act of congress earmarks more than four hundred billion dollars for putting people back to work but critics say it's too little too late obviously and i just can't explain. president obama addressed the lawmakers he put forward measures to create jobs and stimulate the sluggish economy and the u.s. is seen several years of massive job loss unemployment remains over nine percent we're talking about millions of people living jobless in this country congress

might cut off unemployment benefits starting next year and the jobless in america will find themselves in an even more dire situation president obama in his address called for the congress to extend benefits for the unemployed he also suggested tax incentives for small businesses another measure he could forward is giving money we're talking about one hundred forty billion dollars to states and local governments so that they can keep you know the teachers and firefighters employed also hire infrastructure workers so that those workers can go out and spend money and keep the consumption going although experts are saying that the stimulus plan obama is suggesting will not really bring the u.s. economy out of the woods because it will create in the best scenario around one and a half million jobs but it takes eleven million jobs and new jobs just to get back to the pre recession level there's a lot of skepticism out there in congress many lawmakers are not happy with obama's spending plans while obama is not happy with the lawmakers unwillingness to compromise what's frustrating to me here is that this package of one hundred forty

billion dollars in direct stimulus is being debated so fiercely where is the bill giving nearly a trillion dollars a year on defense purposes and on wars gets passed easily and quietly that surely leaves many americans really frustrated about their representatives on product oh it's time now for the business update of the dimitri. as alone welcome to business r.t. because a few between russia and ukraine is reaching a breaking point kiev insists on lower prices moscow says it's ready to negotiate but the basics of the agreement will not be changed. we are ready to discuss different ways to cooperate with ukraine including ukraine joining the customs union all our investment present in ukraine's economy and its gas transportation network if we agree on new use we might be ready to change our scheme for

collaboration but either way would be great on a pricing formula and i hope that our ukrainian partners will follow the existing contract for the immediate future then we'll agree on that. so to the markets now oil is down as investors fear obama's proposed the jobs act worth more than four hundred billion dollars is too little too late to drop the troubled u.s. economy brant is that just over one hundred fourteen dollars per barrel light sweet is below eighty eight. european stocks are trading in the red zone and thereby losses for carmaker porsche follow you than they do with its merger with g.e. porsche is down more than seven percent this hour how well is showing some hefty gains after the company said it discovered oil off the coast of french diana. losses are still steepening in moscow the r.t.s. nice acts are down one point seven and one point two five percent respectively this is on profit taking. and as europe is showing negative dynamics to you if

you look at the main movers burbank is one of the biggest losers down one half percent so that's after posting a one hundred fifty five percent increase in net profits for the first eight months of the year and russian accounting standards non-performing loans have continued to decrease but the level at the bank still is double the market average for the industry called is pretty much the only stock bucking the trend some point four percent on high gold prices so far september is going to month for a spike for the stock markets compared to a heavy selloff in the previous month however it's too early to celebrate chris we've heard from troika dialog believes stocks are at risk of having an even bigger slump in october. tobar is always the most dangerous months in global equity markets historically that's when investors confidence capitulate and we're heading into a very similar and therefore dangerous period in this october confidence is clearly

very fragile if the economic indicators in early october are bad we are vulnerable to another october selloff and i think particularly when we start seeing the third quarter financial results from the u.s. banks i think that's going to be a very critical period if those numbers are bad or if the banks you know start talking much more negatively than they have been about the environment i think that could undermine confidence and we could have a crash so we're very vulnerable to an october crash this year more than any other year in the last ten years all right business r.t. will be back in around fifteen minutes time two of my colleagues meeting in the course of russia will be here with an update the headlines that i started. simming.

culture is the same us market goes right to the crisis in the markets there's a taliban bad guys in nine eleven thinking what has been accomplished what has been lost as america's so-called war on terror maybe usna world a safer place and what. the book. the limits to just simply.

just say. the books. come up. wealthy british scientists. sometimes bias. the. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in these kinds reforged. it's.

brought you are these are the main stories we're covering today in libya fierce fighting resumes mateen ruggles of broken off the forces with battles raging near two of the few remaining strongholds of the fallen regime this comes just a day before saturday's deadline for gadhafi loyalists to surrender. president medvedev urges both sides of the conflict in syria to conquer the negotiating table in an interview after the global policy forum everyone else log on the russian leader also warned against a one sided approach and confirmed russia's willingness to help stop the bloodshed . edward morial services are held in russia out across europe for the victims of

wednesday's plane crash that killed most of the members of a leading russian ice hockey team forty three people died as the plane crashed and moments after takeoff near the city of the sabah. and up next meet a bell at his guest discuss how the nine eleven attacks transformed the world's politics artie's a great program crosstalk. live. live live. live live. live you can. live. long lives. alone and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the nine eleven decade what has been accomplished what has been lost as america's so-called war on terror maybe us

in the world a safer place and one of the huge costs and loss of innocent life has it all been worth it live to take you. live. to cross-talk america's war on terror i'm joined by david ignatius in washington he's a journalist and author in rochester we have john miller he's a professor at ohio state university and in london we crossed and i think retreat he is c.e.o. of the cordoba foundation all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and it's i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at some of the questions facing america on this anniversary. this year marks a decade since. the tax on the united states as america and the rest of the world commemorate the day it is the decade of the events that followed which poses the hardest questions and calls for a look back from the passing of the contentious patriot act to the war in

afghanistan and iraq the answer to nine eleven has involved and last effort to root out transnational extremism and chip for president george bush famously coined the war on terror our war on terror. begins with al qaida. but it does not end there. it will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found stopped and defeated i decades later the system set up to keep america safe involves more than one thousand government organizations and nearly two thousand private companies specializing in counterterrorism across the united states and this comes with a number will the price tag eighty billion dollars spent in total intelligence gathering last year alone and over one trillion dollars spent so far on the wars in iraq afghanistan and other war on terror operations given the staggering financial

costs and america's steadily declining economic power all of this makes the ultimate question has the us achieved the goals that it sought the war on terror has the ability to allow us to carry out military operations that since two thousand and one of taking the lives of more than a million civilians in iraq and afghanistan now in libya and of course that we use to an escalation our resistance of hatred of revenge and so in terms of keeping the american people save that's a ridiculous notion but then again since nine eleven america has avoided any large scale attacks on its soil eliminated top al qaeda leaders and enhanced its domestic security network whether these gains warrant the costs remains to be determined as america draws conclusions and learn some lessons come this anniversary national

chair named for across our team. and it's in london first you know ten years on. fighting this war on terror and still the term is still used and it's what are you thinking about most ten years on is the world a safer place is america safer place. well before i answer that question or not wanting to put a downer on this particular theme i think we ought to avoid falling into. the mistake of making out as though the events of ten years ago as tragic and as momentous as they were as being the most tragic events all the most important points of our more modern history or indeed the beginning of history as many politicians in particular within the american administration of past have made out to be nine eleven was indeed a very momentous events because of the implications and because of the implications

carried out in the actions carried out. specifically by the american administration what's i recall ten years ago peter and i'm sure that most people also recall this there was a particular moment immediately after the fall of the towers when i had the feeling that the entire world almost came together and shared a moment of shock of horror and possibly even support and solidarity that was a moment that if it were captured i think that today would have been talking about an entirely different theme unfortunately a few hours only a few hours after the fall of those towers we went on i.e. the american administration went on a tangent a totally different approach and that moment of world solidarity was absolutely scuppered it's very true to you if i go to you in washington robert fisk famously said in just to go from what we just heard is that the americans demand the world

know our dates but we don't we don't know very dates and their tragic history and looking at the neocolonial our experience that north africa has experience for the last century and a half so i mean in reflecting upon you know. the attention to think is that a correct way of looking at it because it sounds like a huge strategic mistake. well i think you can think of nine eleven as a shock to you know the united states and of the global system that the u.s. was the dominant player and and the shock produced erratic policy that i think most people would conclude that a lot of damage to the united states to its alliances to certainly the country's reputation as i look at president obama who inherited the bush years of reaction to nine eleven i've struck by two things first i think obama has tried

since he became president to lower the rhetoric you do hear less talk about a war on terror and on differentiated endless struggle against terrorists wherever they are and you do see an effort by obama to work to improve us our ally and so this is the effort to reset as that term as the relationship with with russia i think is one of the significant policies that obama embarked on right at the beginning of his term in the u.s. and he had more friends than it had and he set out to change policy so as to get them at the same time that obama has been using i think quieter rhetoric and has been trying to work better with allies he has been very aggressive in secret in his attempts to destroy al qaeda the raid on the compound it was a solid and odan that resulted in his death on may second as an example that was

a very tough operation it's a decision that george bush might have taken but i've told by people who were close advisors that he might not of obama sharply stepped up the pace of predator drone attacks not just over the tribal areas in pakistan but that and several other countries in addition so i think you have an interesting. picture of the president who is trying to change the rhetoric but in terms of. hard nosed reality this battle against it's it's it's it's is it's tough this is going to go to john i mean if the rhetoric has changed but the actions have not so there is not a big difference between obama and bush and a lot of people would say the war on terror to be eight has not been successful it's been terribly expensive and it is only hurt the security interest of hundreds of millions of people around the world i mean i think we it's kind of generally accepted there's been some huge strategic mistakes made here but from what we just

heard you just continue go ahead john. yes i basically agree with it it's been a massive misallocation of effort that the the attacks on nine eleven cost perhaps two hundred billion dollars including the loss of life a lot of the buildings and the economic impact from it and it's a great tragedy but since that time the united states has spent increased expenditures on home domestic homeland security expenditures about a trillion dollars and the baby and it and overseas the court the wars are costing several trillion dollars so to speak and of course more americans have died in iraq and then died on nine eleven any less and it seems to come from this is the most important and most effective counterterrorism strategy is to not overreact some of the things that david talked about i think are quite useful namely going after the guys who actually did it with drones or without your own but much of the rest of the expenditure is basically being simply thrown at the problem without any

sensible analysis if you're dealing with the issue of are we safer or the way to put it is this of course we're safer we hired some more security guards if you if you built a tsunami wall around moscow moscow would be safer from tsunamis are the question is is that a sensible form of expenditure and a case of the united states the american and americans chance of being killed by and by a terrorist of any form is about one in three point five million per year and the question then is not are we safer but how much more money do you want to throw at the problem to make that probability even lower and it's an angle back to you in london because the way bush preceded and probably to some extent also obama isn't that it wasn't the the war on terror we can say with that term always going to be perceived as anti muslim in the arab world because you know we have we have now we have three countries ok we have we have iraq we have afghanistan and we have libya ok this is again it's this the perception coming out of washington western capitals

is one thing but the perception has always been very different on the ground for the people experiencing these invasions. absolutely and if i may start by coming back toward john just said i absolutely concur with everything he said but on the question of whether we're safer or not i agree with him yes we may be safer because as he put it we hired more guards and more security cameras but actually if you go around ask people individually they're more scared so it's quite an anomaly of the kind of world that we've created we've fought this war on terror but we've created even more terrifying even more people on a far wider scale whilst the attack was in a particularly small geographical location we've managed to create an impact that is far reaching every single inch practically of the world and that is i think where we have gone terribly wrong as i said the very beginning there was

a moments when we could have actually fought this appearance ideology of al qaeda in a totally different way what we managed to do unfortunately is to actually spread it is to actually recruit for clyde over the past over the past ten years i've said this time and again peter and possibly one time on your program in the past before nine eleven i frequented and prayed at a mosque where after prayers people would on a rag cell tape sort of sound for about fifty cents and no one would buy immediately after nine eleven he became a hero and that same tape was going for ten dollars and people would be searching for more we're going to jump in right here you do a short break and after the actual break we'll continue our discussion on nine eleven a decade out to work hard. to get into the.

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t.v. dot com. kicking. back across the time came to mind you were talking about the nine eleven attack you. can see. david thank you george bush he pushed his war on terror and it's become very much part of the american political and military establishment is that the war on terror was a power a another way of promoting democracy we could have a different discussion about it can you invade a country and force democracy out of that's that's one thing but i think the arab spring or the arab awakening release says a lot because you don't need outsiders to invade your country to get rid of dictators if we're the west would stop it promoting decay dictators in that part of

the world people will rise up and they will have their own democracy and so this whole effort of democratization really the people on the ground pour cold water on what george bush and and others tried to do. well i think george bush is a pretty easy whipping boy he's no longer president barack obama faced with a difficult strategic decision about whether to abandon us to mubarak and been a boil and use for wildlife united states decided that it was appropriate to ban it and that the egyptian people wanted change and that any american effort to resist that would be inappropriate and got strenuous arguments from close u.s. allies from israel from saudi arabia senator for goodness sakes what are you doing so don't do that and he went ahead because he thought it was the right policy so i think you need to be a little bit careful about about about the way you're setting up the question here

our conversation in general reminds me of something we all know which is the news that there was a lot of character guards history is best understood backwards but has to be lived forwards in other words. in the immediate aftermath of of two thousand and one which analysis i was reminded us was a moment of hope and consolidation nobody really knew what was what was happening and the it is clear now that the information that the bush white house was receiving was terrified it was the information about chemical or biological attacks attacks on subways this and that and i think it's clear that they overreacted but it is important i think to remember the context in which they were making decisions which was the fog of the uncertainty of this war which they suddenly found themselves i think it's taken the united states years now to begin to get a better perspective and to get some balance in this policy and i i do think that's

returning. somebody covers the subject i find people with more clarity about the importance of not going out making enemies and not doing a traditional american style of leadership charging up a hill hole or shouting about a war on terror you don't hear that from president obama for a reason so i guess i would say that. with the with the perspective of ten years if we learned nothing if we really were just plodding along the same direction. the police well i think maybe a lot of people of pakistan would probably disagree with that but if i go to you john what would you think it was the united states and its allies just wanted to remake the world in its own image it's almost like a mystery on a vision of the world we can change being changed entire region with the invasion of one country to have this domino effect and in retrospect and you know i'm used to i was a trained as a historian ok i know what history is i mean in retrospect it was just

a fool's errand in a lot of people lost their lives and the u.s. is more or less bankrupt itself through this kind of messianic vision and it's still elements of it are still there go ahead john. you know they're still there though i certainly agree with david that the rhetoric has been toned. substantially . in general in terms of promotion of democracy the best thing the united states could as ever done is simply be an example when the revolutions took place in eastern europe after one hundred eighty nine united states cheered them on in a mostly took place by themselves in latin america became democratic after nine hundred seventy five united states again was a sort of a in a in a cheering position and also that it made a change changes in east europe in east asia such as in south korea and in taiwan with respect to david's point which i think is a very good one of the sort of hysteria that gripped the country right after nine eleven i think is absolutely right there were intelligence estimates at the time that there were five thousand al qaeda agents running around loose within the

united states you know that was basically off by about five thousand in addition people or explore expecting additional. reactions and sort of so many nine eleventh's so the initial concern was quite quite reasonable but after a couple of years you think they start to be some reevaluation and after five years of this with nothing happening essentially even more so and when but obama came in and i really hope that now that i'm almost there was eight years after that there would be some initial reevaluation but we still got basically the same policies continuing on i just finished the coauthored book with a scandal as an engineer named mark stewart called terror security and money and we tried to look at the homeland security expenditures and what is coming out of the department of homeland security had both before and after the obama administration is continued height of the threat let me just give you one quick example six months

ago the secretary of homeland security janet napolitano held a press conference and she said we now think that the likelihood of a major attack a major coordinated attack like al qaeda like nine. eleven is lower however we still have to worry about small disorganized attacks therefore we are more in more danger than we've ever been before there's a we got rid of the big thing we continue to small thing and somehow that makes us more dangerous that's a kind of you're responsible hype that continues to come out of the the white house and come and come out of the administration there are still people in the obama administration who are saying that al qaeda the pathetic ridiculous al qaeda presents an existential threat to the united states that it will it could potentially destroy a country of three hundred million with a massive g.d.p. etc and no one ever still no one is challenging that preposterous assertion look.