some of bin laden's tracker under the spotlight to ask if the leader of al qaeda is death made the world any safer that's up next. hello again i welcome to spotlight the interview show on r c i'll do it all from today we're talking about nine eleven. this year marks the tenth anniversary of september eleventh attacks in the united states to passenger airliners crashed into the world trade center buildings in new york and one into the pentagon building in the city almost three thousand people died in the attacks started a new era u.s. led a war against terror which sparked two major military operation in iraq and afghanistan just two months ago the u.s.

enemy number one salah bin ladin was killed in pakistan but did his death really change it did the ten year downplaying produce any result except the growing insurgency on the one hand and islamophobia on the other we're asking the former chief of the a family bin laden tracking unit in the cia michael shelley. who were stare at tuck in u.s. history terrorists hijacked four planes and two of them into the twin towers of the world trade center in new york city the one into the pentagon while the force was presumably targeted at the white house in washington but crashed into a build the horrific attacks which al qaeda eventually admitted left some three thousand innocent people dad and created a perception that no place is safe from the threat of extremists from the media to u.s. response was the war on terror declared by president george w.

bush it instigated highly controversial military complains in iraq and afghanistan . they were in terror has been criticised many times it's counterproductive because in a further escalation of violence one of the legacies of nine eleven is the guantanamo bay detention base where alleged terrorists have been held the math that's used there have been condemned by organizations like amnesty international and human rights watch is something which turns the war on terrorism in turn the act of terrorism in itself another sign of the post nine eleven world is a rise in islam of increasingly evident in the u.s. and europe it took america ten years to locate and eliminate osama bin laden the mastermind of nine eleven the nun's month of the death of the u.s. says most wanted enemy in may spark mass celebrations in the united states.

is a sure and welcome to the show thank you very much for being with us. well thank you for having me so yes thanks to sure you say i quote the fundamental flaw in our thinking about bin laden is that muslims hate us for what we are rather than what we do and quote what's your explanation of the reasons for these attacks. we were attacked because of what our government does in the muslim world this was overwhelmingly a defensive response to us foreign policy toward european foreign policy for that matter there is not much difference when it comes to the muslim world and to it to fail to understand that is to fail to understand the motivation of our enemy the appeal of our enemy to the younger generation in the muslim world and really just to kid ourselves to think that killing bin laden really solve the problem it's an

ongoing problem it's a worsening problem and least in the united states we have two parties who are resolutely opposed to any any contact with reality on this they want the american people to believe that we're being attacked because we have liberty and elections and gender equality and really the war has almost nothing to do with that i do consider some of bin ladin skilling as the major us a victory in the war on terror and a serious blow for the jihadi terrorism. it's a major tactical victory it's a wonderful victory for the cia and the united states special forces we're much better off as a as a country and i probably as an alliance with him dead but the time has long passed where he would have been his killing would have been sufficient to end the problem mr clinton had that opportunity ten or twelve different times in one nine hundred ninety eight thousand nine hundred ninety nine it would have made

a real difference there but bin laden it's very good that he's dead he was a very talented very inspirational leader but the movement the islamist movement is much bigger today much more geographically dispersed than it was at nine eleven primarily because of the invasion of iraq. our invasion of iraq and subsequent occupation really created a situation that did for bin laden and al qaeda what it probably could never have done by itself the occupation of iraq made al qaeda it turned out to rather from a man and a group into a philosophy and a movement and now we're living with that philosophy and that movement mr sure why did you. say that bin ladin i quote died a success isn't it an overestimation of a terrorist death that had to be in deep hiding for the last couple of days or years rather of his life. i don't think it's an overestimation at all perhaps it's

an underestimation asama bin laden was the one person in the muslim world in the arab world especially who stood up and defied the united states in words and deeds and indeed enticed us into coming into afghanistan where we have lost that war so he will be remembered both as as a very brave man and as someone who is more effective than any muslim government has ever been in challenging the united states but i think more important the west has always missed the point they've they've kind of refused to listen to what osama bin laden said over the past sixteen years and that was al qaeda and bin laden himself were too few in number to ever. to ever defeat the wester to drive the west out of the middle east by themselves and so they took it upon themselves especially bin laden to inspire other muslims to undertake a jihad against the united states its allies and its client governments in the

middle east along with the israelis and i think just objective really if you if you if you. total up the number of people who are in arms against us in the field today in a number of countries they're operating in and the increasingly indigenous violence in the united states and canada in north in europe bin laden died a fully successful in his own terms mr sure you were had of the cia's bin ladden intelligence unit in the ninety six ninety nine you mention this period of your life already couple of minutes ago it was your job to provide necessary information to capture or eliminate the al qaida leader were you receiving the information at that time that he was up to a major attack against the u.s. was it possible already at that time to neutralize him or not. well certainly it's

never been a it's never been hidden from the western from the united states that they intended to attack the united states at home and attack us very severely as i said earlier in our interview sir the west has been stone deaf to what bin laden has said over the over the course of his active career much in the way that we ignored my income when hitler wrote it of the one nine hundred twenty s. we would have been better off had we listened to what he said or had we read what he said but we didn't and we took a pounding for russia especially but a lot never made it a secret that he was going to attack inside the united states and indeed i had the honor to lead some very brave and very effective officers and frankly mr clinton had much better information and opportunities to kill osama bin laden than the opportunity that that the president current president president obama had and he took the chance he went ahead and did it in the interest of the american people mr clinton was more afraid of damaging his reputation with the europeans and other

kind of left wing people if he happened to kill a few civilians along with killing osama bin laden when you when you look at the problems the world has travelling in air space when you look at the drain on the war of of of terrorism and you had the u.s. economy if you look at the inspiration in bin laden and others provided to the to the muslim rebels russia is fighting in the north caucuses all of that goes back to president clinton's cowardice in not being willing to kill osama bin laden in the late one nine hundred ninety s. you know you're pretty critical mr sure of president clinton was that the major reason why you resigned back in one thousand nine nine hundred. it was a big part of it sir and i'm not just critical of mr clinton i'm critical of any president of the united states who doesn't put the protection of americans first i think russians would feel the same way about their president or the british about

the same their prime minister mr clinton just happens to be the one that i know best because i was responsible for providing information to him. i'm sorry i missed the let the second part of your question i mean i mean was that the reason you're. your criticism of the clinton that you resigned a while you were you rather dismissed from the cia ninety nine. no i resigned i was moved to a different job in may of june of one nine hundred ninety nine we had just gone through a period in the last week of may in one nine hundred ninety nine where we know we knew exactly where osama bin laden was spending the night for five consecutive nights and kandahar city and we could have killed him at any one of those nights and the president decided not to do it and i wrote a memo that said basically if we don't do this soon we're going to miss our opportunity and a lot of americans are going to die for that and that got me moved to another job

doing counter-narcotics until until nine eleven i resigned no more because of the failure of the nine eleven commission to find anybody responsible for anything before nine eleven and because they failed to the informed to inform the american people in their report that we're fighting people who are at war with us because of our foreign policy and its impact in their world and not because americans have women in the workplace or because we drink beer and i thought that was a major failure of the nine eleven commission and i thought i should say something about that and i couldn't do it as a serving cia officer says michael show where the former chief of this drama bin ladin tracking unit at the cia spotlight will be back surely there are breaks those down go where they.

will. review the latest in science and technology from the rooms are. we going to the future or covered. welcome back to the spotlight i'm al green novel and just

a reminder that my guest on the show today is michael scheuer the former chief on the as i'm a bin laden tracking unit add the cia mr short so you just mentioned the your predictions and your you're a wall when you work in the cia. does that mean that the nine eleven events when that tragedy happened that it wasn't it wasn't a shock for you because you expected something like that to happen is that right. that's exactly correct sir and it and i don't like to put the focus on myself anybody who had been working the end against osama bin laden and al qaeda whether it was at cia or the department of defense or anywhere else in the u.s. intelligence community knew that an attack in the united states was coming and there was no doubt i think in anybody's mind the moment the first plane hit the tower that al qaeda was responsible for it we had developed information as early as

one nine hundred ninety five that al qaeda was planning to fly a seven forty seven aircraft passenger aircraft into cia headquarters in virginia so this was no surprise to anybody so just after september eleventh he you have been appointed again you came back to the cia as a special advisor to the chief of the bin ladden unit does it mean that that the agency admitted they were wrong and you were right. you know i don't really know what it means i think it means that i had more experience probably than any other senior officer in the u.s. government or the intelligence community working osama bin laden and after the attacks of nine eleven a large number of new people were brought in to work against al qaeda and i think they brought me back primarily because i had an institutional knowledge a long history of working this particular target and i was able to the extent i

could to help young people understand how the organization worked what was important what was unimportant i don't think it was anything like a admission of that i was right in and they were wrong it really that really doesn't make a difference the only thing that mattered after nine eleven was really destroying al qaeda mr sure what's your attitude to the conclusions of the so-called nine eleven commission should they be reviewed from europe with a view. what i've always been concerned with sir is that part of the charity for the nine eleven commission was that all of the intelligence information that was provided to it would be released to the public. and it was before the commission got it it was it was edited in re dac did to make sure that no sources

intelligence sources or methods of acquiring information would be compromised so all of that material is ready to be released whenever whenever they're ready to do it and when that's released i think it will become a very apparent to the american people that there were grievous failures in the senior leadership of the u.s. government particularly in the white house and that the intelligence community as a whole not just cia but n.s.a. and other units really did very well in giving the president a chance to kill america's number one enemy the only person who had declared war on us twice in one thousand nine hundred six in one nine hundred ninety eight so i really do think what what we need to have is the documents that were provided to the nine eleven commission which were promised to the american people what made you publish the book it was called imperial hombres why the west is losing the war on terror you probably this book back in two thousand and four what made you publish this book and did losing

a job in the cia once again that it. well i resigned finally b.s. they i resigned. because i wanted to speak publicly about this i think the most important issue for the united states and certainly its allies and nato is to realize there is no way to win this war or to end this war as long as our foreign policies remain the same in the in the muslim world as long as we support whatever the israelis want to do as long as we're the primary backers of the saudi police state as long as we. are dependent on oil in the middle east. all that means this war is that this war will continue that the islamist movement will continue to grow and that we will be in essence the the engine of islamism because it is our foreign policies and their impact that genuinely motivate the

enemies that we face in the field today we certainly have failed miserably in killing enough of the enemy we haven't killed nearly enough of them but killing is never enough you have to have policies that that kind of make recruitment more difficult in the coming generation and so far since nine eleven our policies has remained the same have remained the same and they have spurred recruitment to al qaeda and many many other islamist groups around the world mr sure the u.s. led invasion of afghanistan was an immediate result of this of september eleventh attack what will the imminent u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan mean for these make militancy will the jihadist come out weakened or maybe rain forest as a result of the campaign in afghanistan. well what we've seen in the last six months is president obama has surrendered in afghanistan after ten years they have

not killed enough of the enemy to even protect the senior people in the afghan government i think the russian people will remember the efforts of the soviet union in afghanistan and certainly we're going to end up no better the result of our defeat there will be to galvanize the coming generation of young muslims around the world to fight in the jihad i think you'll remember sir that osama bin laden's generation the generation of iman's our way here and of others was galvanized into a belief that islam could prevail by their success in driving the red army out of afghanistan when the united states and its allies leave afghanistan the governments in the west and in washington will dress up. the retreat to surrender as if it was some kind of success but in the muslim world it will be seen for what it is which is the united states leaving afghanistan without accomplishing any of the goals it

set out to accomplish in effect it will be leaving in defeat and just as the soviet withdrawal galvanized the muslim what the young muslim world in one thousand nine hundred nine the american defeat in afghanistan will galvanize this generation of muslims when we leave in two thousand and twelve or twenty fourteen or whatever date we do leave well then what about the war in iraq was it a mistake to from your point of view i mean i mean did it do good for the anti terror war. no it was a complete can't can't completely counterproductive sir and i guess i need to do you know for your viewers i am not an expert on iraq or. what kind of threat saddam hussein posed but the advice that was given to the administration from the people who were working against al qaeda and its allies was the invasion of iraq was a gift to them that they kind of always wanted but they never expected to get it

because the invasion of iraq was the perfect predicate for a joe had it was a religious predicate it was an infidel country invading a muslim country occupying it and installing man made laws rather than rather than god's law and so as i said earlier in our talk we did for bin laden what he had not been able to do for himself and that is to create a situation where a defensive jihad against the west appeared perfectly acceptable and perfectly correct and the duty of many muslims so there is no upside to iraq's or it's all downside for the united states and its allies mr sure you said something personal a minute ago and i want to ask you a personal question if i may michael you said i quit my job in the in the in the agency because i wanted to speak out publicly does that mean that you think that

speaking as a public figure as an independent public feet figure you can do more good for the american people then working in the central intelligence agency. well let me say first of all i left a job that i loved i had no intention of ever leaving but from one nine hundred ninety three when we started to work at least in a small way against al qaeda until two thousand and four i had seen three consecutive presidents tell the american people that we were at war because. they hate liberty they hate freedom and and all the rest of the kind of cant that comes out of the mouths of western politicians and what i thought and it sounds corny certain sounds trite but i thought it was time to be a good citizen and from certainly from the cia i could not publicly say that

for example whatever you think about our relationship with saudi arabia our support for a repressive arab police state really empowers al qaeda and other islamists to attack us i couldn't say that from cia and i couldn't say that no matter whether you support israel or whether you oppose israel our relationship with the israelis is a poisonous relationship in terms of u.s. interests in the muslim world i certainly couldn't say that from from the cia so and rightfully so a civil servant shouldn't be able to say those things but as a private citizen i thought i could perhaps at least add to the dimensions of the debate in the united states. those states today facing serious financial problems and do you think that to some extent it may be a result of the hyperactive foreign and military part of this is of the bush era and

do you think that that that today's financial problems may influence and change the military and the foreign policy of the united states. why i think certainly the bush and obama administrations and the clinton administration before hand have been very interventionist in their foreign policy in terms of both military activities and for bombing the serbs back in clinton to the war on terror and the expansion of the effort in afghanistan all of that is very expensive you know i think the main problem for the united states is really an enormous number of useless politicians who spend too much money domestically and will it affect our. behavior overseas i think if it has to because we're not going to be able to afford to keep doing what we have been doing and i think it's a very it's a very useful thing to listen to what the enemy says and what he intended to do or

some of bin laden from one thousand nine hundred six forward was very clear that the they could not defeat the united states militarily but that that was the three things they used three metrics they used to define whether they were making any progress were the following first to take care to take advantage of whatever international economic conditions were to help lead the united states the bankruptcy and i think just as we've talked a rock afghanistan and many other things are helping to bleed us to bankruptcy the second thing al qaeda mentioned as a goal was to spread out u.s. intelligence forces and u.s. military forces to the point where they had no flexibility and very little reserves and i think we've seen that accomplished and the third goal was to create as much public dissent in the united states as the north vietnamese did during the vietnam war and to strip away. our allies kind of wanted to time and i think we've seen

many many of our allies just abandon us in the field so from my perspective when osama bin laden died he was a success not only in terms of inspiring. young muslims to fight the west but also substantively and what he laid out is the only way that he thought the islamists could defeat the united states thank you thank you very much and just to remind you that my guest on the show today was my i told sure as the former chief of the us i'm a been allowed in tracking units of the cia and that's it for now from all of us here if you want to have your sound spotlight part have someone in mind who you think i should be next time just drop you know i would be back with more first time comments on what's going on in and outside russia and until then stay on r.t. and take your.

false stories on our t.v. russia's city of seattle slothful is paying its last respects to the victims of wednesday's plane crash that killed almost all of the top local ice hockey teams. thousands of people streaming into the studio where the locomotive go slow played on shot thomas jaroslav all as a city mourns and grieves the loss of their stars. a nation on guard new security threats of words on the eve of the tenth anniversary of nine eleven as some fear that the u.s. war on terror has created more enemies than it's destroyed. wasit tell of the event karo strike a new sour note in relations as an angry mob image of should capitol storms israeli embassy or secret stop to leave the country.