we know what we. need to. question. is the state english speaking russian channel it's kind of like. russia today has an extremely confrontational stance when it comes to us.

provides a conversation with the great minds i'm joined with by edward day he is a journalist author and television and documentary producer since the late one nine hundred seventy s. he's reported from some of the world world's harshest war and crisis zones from africa to asia the middle east for a major european a major american publication simply national geographic magazine the christian science monitor the international herald tribune and the financial times he's also written numerous books chronicling his experiences and insights on the people and politics that he's covered as a journalist he's also the founding director of the institute for media and global

governance based in geneva switzerland you first reported on afghanistan just before the soviet invasion in one hundred seventy nine and served as an eyewitness to some of that country's tumultuous events over the past thirty years his latest book killing the cranes or reporters a journey through three decades of war in afghanistan is a personal account of the people wars chaos and strife that has defined that nation for more than a generation and with our nation now stuck in a decades long war in afghanistan i think it's insights are much needed they were sure they welcome to the program they very much thank you for being with us killing the cranes cranes cranes you know well it goes back to. an encounter i had with most of toby who was a friend of mine who was very severely wounded when i'm assuming the great northern commander of the northern alliance was assassinated by al qaida actually today twenty two ten years ago and levy was wounded severely with over two and

a piece of shrapnel i went to see him in two thousand and four in march two thousand and four and we talked a very long rather depressing congress a. from kabul about the future of afghanistan the impact of so many wars since april nine hundred seventy eight in afghanistan the afghan people he maintained they were nation traumatized also wasn't quite sure where everything was going with the international community and as you walk outside we looked up into the this amazing night sky that you only get in afghanistan with all the stars and he said you know for me the end of march was always the time when you couldn't hear the sound of your voice for the migrating cranes and what he was referring to were these siberian cranes that would fly from the southern weapons with a wintered up to the north to siberia northern russia every march and then he said you know i haven't heard a single cranes and speaking here and then he sort of touched my arm and said that

we even killed all the cranes and i thought that was a very symbolic point to have they. are an endangered species you know. the martians but also they have been wiped out also in india and elsewhere but you know i think the wars probably have impact remarkable. some just like really simple stuff the most americans are confused about tragically so afghans are not arabs oh absolutely not on that a little bit because i think most americans have the kind of fox news viewer you know all muslims are the same and all muslims or arabs and all muslims are somehow related just. striking people. there are different diverse group of people who are the pashtuns in the east in the south they're the tajiks the north very mediterranean people you have the has are as the minority shia in the central highlands who actually we believe to be the remnants of just. means of thousand that he apparently left one

thousand soldiers to maintain his for his southern borders and so it's a very diverse people had. as a nation it somehow has existed but not necessary the way we think of it also during the one nine hundred eighty s. when the united states china and other countries saudi arabia pakistan got heavily involved with afghanistan against the soviets the arabs came in and you know the at the arab legionnaires the islamic legionnaires who gave support to the fundamentalist afghan groups but even you know the most fundamental mentalists afghans never like the arabs they consider them arrogant and the arabs consider them not real muslims and the arabs probably most famous for americans are the arabs who came in was so solid in law exactly and. the u.s. did the u.s. helped establish the taliban. indirectly absolutely during the eighty's we were the

cia provided most of that support through the pakistani i.s.i. the military intelligence organization which was ludicrous because i had its own agenda the american agenda was really to give the soviets their own good was not really there for the afghans we talked a lot about freedom fighters supporting them about the whole charlie wilson's war exactly exactly which also by the way the film misrepresented the situation we support of this rather nasty individual called goban hekmatyar who is an extremist hated americans killed a lot of moderate afghans and is now one of the leading insurgent politicians against the u.s. and nato in afghanistan so we created that we listen to we can order a lot of the really good matters inside afghanistan many who are moderate such as most sued or another want to push tune and during the one nine hundred ninety s. after the civil war which was a brutal civil war the battle for kabul where he was shelling more those killed as

many as fifty thousand afghans during the soviet war it kabul was untouched practically it was actually the civil war between amongst the afghans which destroyed the city it looks like reza. when i was there in one thousand i did three that badly destroyed so after they had driven the so it's this after they didn't save it and then when the taliban began to emerge many afghans actually supported the taliban because the taliban promised peace security and they did do that but when they came into power in kabul in september one thousand nine hundred six they began to repress the other minority groups such as the tajiks that was ours that was specs and and that time the us was involved in particular unocal american company with a consortium to. exactly understand everything extreme pakistan and the right from from the oil fields to the power plant that was being built by general electric i think exactly exactly and they supported it they prefer to have one government in afghanistan and the irony as well which people seem to forget is that vice

president cheney. made a grant of forty three million dollars to in the spring of two thousand and one so you know it was the opium production just off the open and in fact they did i mean you look at the chart of opium production and there's this giant so it doesn't mean it was necessarily stopped because they were good soap and it may have been a market hedge to get the prices so that's also a factor get out of get out of production etc give it back exactly exactly to take the money from chile exactly. that's right remark well you started. your observation you're reporting from afghanistan in seventy nine the right or the soviet thing you know you've been there through that through the american invasion i mean internet through those periods of time. there's we talked about the mythology of charlie wilson's war that the movie and the mythology very much is that you know we bankrupted the soviet union with that. and yet we've been there

now longer i think from the soviets were certainly longer going to anywhere else. and bin ladin in his video tape that he's just before the world. doesn't for you know for every dollar that he spends and america is spending a million and his plan is to police destroy like you blood it's just try to explain is there some truth to or or or or fallacy to the to the analogy between these two i mean it's extremely costly war or involvement. in two thousand and one two thousand and two after nine eleven many people on the ground the information was there there were aid workers there were americans that worked for the usa id with the state department to get experience on the ground and also numerous international aid organizations such as care which has been there you know for sixty years the swedish committee for afghanistan which operated clandestinely

during the soviet war. have a lot of afghans working for them they really understood the on the ground situation and the big warnings in two thousand and two was don't throw money at up to them i recognize that it will take many years possibly twenty or thirty years to bring about real recovery to bring an end to this conflict don't get involved militarily that is disastrous and a lot of recommendations you know keep small focus on the rural areas where eighty percent of afghans live and yet this was ignored we brought in the warlords who brought in a lot of the discredited politicians resistance politicians from the one nine hundred eighty s. who were thoroughly corrupt i mean they they rich themselves alongside the pakistanis and we put them into power the american ambassador i think it was a degree just a mistake to put in an afghan as the u.s. ambassador to afghanistan because every afghan knew the guy's baggage he didn't

understand afghanistan very well and they saw him with great admiration you know a local boy done good and that he. he made the big mistake i think of allowing of bringing back the former king as i would a few more years to live not because he was a great king in fact he was a lousy came but he represented a period of the one nine hundred seventy s. where most afghans look back every member of that as a nostalgic period of peace and he could have been used as a figurehead that would have brought together a lot of the afghans from different groups the pashtuns the tajiks but that was not so when people who were actually quite excited about the americans coming were the international community coming and they thought finally an end to the war but that's just did not happen and when they saw that they brought in the warlords and it's corrupt individuals one time. two thousand and two june two thousand and two with the first loya jirga this is a grand assembly and many that wasn't before the bombings or so this is after the i

mean this was june two thousand and two the bombing began october seventh two thousand and one this is the first attempt to bring in real democracy a lot of people including the women you know health workers educated educated afghan women thought you know now we're going to have to say when they saw the war that was brought in or these individuals who. who used the whole situation they realized they weren't going to have a say so dissolution began to set in and it was like this one mistake after another and these are mistakes which didn't have to happen i mean the british went in in two thousand and two two thousand and three promised tribal afghans at least areas who were grown poppy saying allow us to destroy your crops and we'll compensate you the compensation did not happen so that left a lot of very angry farmers and farmers whether they're in canada australia or afghanistan or the states they all think the same way they want

a product they can sell they want to make a living. f.d.r. . this is a big thing was up all the farmers. the according to see. in fact look at the time that we began bombing afghanistan in two thousand the g.n.p. or the g.d.p. of that nation was two billion dollars so here you've got a country the second poorest country in the world with the g.d.p. a two billion dollars. the bush administration had effectively the year before at least reduced the opium. you know we don't know what forty million bucks was a lot of money. it was reported the washington post. that the taliban had offered to arrest osama bin laden and turn him over to a third country nothing united states with third country for trial if the bush administration would present any evidence that he was had something to do right and a lot of pretty much everybody was horrified. how different would the world be in george bush flying arrest him. put him on trial in the hague or something like that

you know we'll present the evidence and by the way here's a couple billion dollars to rebuild your country and we're spending. spending a thousand billion there now so how different would the world be that there are two aspects one was in two thousand and one there was actually a growing and he told a lie and spin developed i must sued in some other moderate commanders and they were bringing in a lot of. who were becoming totally disenchanted with the pakistani dominance the dominance of the arabs the abdomen of saudi arabia we cannot forget saudi arabia both were supporting the taliban massively but there was this this dissolution and because of the arrogance and the dominance of the i so i always sought to run afghanistan and you know afghans don't take kindly to outsiders regardless whether they're americans or al qaida. so this is building up with the russians and anyone

else a list of thirty forty players is this. and so this is growing and must have warned us about this. and went all kind assassinated killed sued september ninth one of the reasons was to give a present to the trial about them because they'd already taken eighty percent of the country and thus it was was the last significant commander to resist that's all about him but they were also afraid that the taleban were in the process of collapsing and that this might have happened but this was ignored by the bush administration and by blair tony blair in the u.k. and after nine eleven. but you have remember the taliban were primarily illiterate people they called it means scholars they weren't scholars they were illiterate. you had a leadership perhaps of thirty forty people who probably knew what bin laden was up to globally but most most although one had

a clue it really didn't care you know they really didn't and they were a faction in a civil war so i think you know heads we gone with that there was already the basis of a new alliance and. not suited and huck wanted to involve the taliban in this new broad alliance because that's the way it's going to work in afghanistan even today you have to involve any everyone even after the war when the soviets left the regime the communist regime and others wanted to bring in former communists as long as they accepted the notions of you know what had bush taken that offer there might be a stable afghanistan but i think we've got very good chance there was no need for this war i think it was for our conversation with journalist edward here and it will continue we come back just. into the military. if you don't work to bring justice to accountability.

i have every right to know what my government's doing want to know what i pay taxes . well i would characterize the obama as the charismatic. of american exceptionalism. welcome back to conversations with great minds tonight i'm joined by journalist and author edward day his latest book killing the crane's chronicles his experiences as a journalist in afghanistan during three decades of conflict in that nation you actually saw the three decades. ago but here. we go. it's what what are the lessons from from that this thirty years that you've seen in afghanistan that americans and americans and europeans i mean you know

we're all in this gantz together it seems should know that we don't know or that we've seen not to be whether it's a policy level or the average person level should know to understand how forward i think to understand what's happening today you've got to go back to the one nine hundred eighty s. you have to look at the past thirty thirty five years what happened. also the fact that even slightly further during the sixty's and seventy's the u.s. and soviet union were competing with these with each other out aiding each other as much as possible but it did do was it produced a lot of americans including peace corps for example there are a lot of people there but in two thousand. who learned a great deal about afghanistan so we do have knowledge and people within the usa you know other institutions but the fact is we have to understand that afghans are

always this likes foreigners who impose themselves it doesn't matter who they are or where they were they were always welcomed foreigners as long as they were. it's a guess i mean i didn't know that quote right exactly and i didn't counter you know once i did it was at the time but a lot and in one nine hundred eighty nine and this is a point i made to him he said this is not your jihad what are you doing here and i said i will be here as long as my hosts allow me to be here but i will leave if they were quietly just as i'm sure you will be if your hosts require you to leave and that in fact did happen in the early one nine hundred ninety s. the afghan was kicked out the arabs including the likes of bin laden because of this arrogance because they were there not for afghanistan they were there for their own agenda and so everyone has been involved with afghanistan and has been for their own agendas and not for the agendas of the afghans so i think one has to really pay attention to that what's happened so. here we are now you know.

with flypaper all sickly. and you know how many cars a brother half brother whatever just recently assassinated. the levels of corruption mind boggling the cynicism here in this country about cars eyes former associations or american oil companies you know callup little's what. that is if you will if you were advising the president which is well i would say first of all forget any military options you know everything is been run by the military and you know why allow generals to decide and i feel very sympathetic to a lot of these soldiers we've asked them to become soldiers aid workers development workers relief workers i mean you name it you can expect them to do that afghanistan can only be resolved i think through proper and effective recovery including investment it's going to be evolve people who understand afghanistan and

it's got to be led by afghans themselves the trouble with the military is that you know many go in for six months that's the worst and maybe. a year they cannot possibly begin to understand afghanistan in that period and in fact i was in the u.k. recently and talked to two world marine officers who were returning the next morning to helmand and they were extremely angry they said this is a completely pointless war we're being used as political pawns and we should be negotiating with everyone and this is what it's all about it's about everyone being involved when we refer to use the expression tell about i think we should drop it it's really an armed opposition the taliban are part of it there's has been islami or friend will be in who's thoroughly infiltrated government particularly ministries of interior you have the hakani network the senior how cutting is still alive with someone we worked with but was actually a very good commander during the 1980's but who developed

a hatred for the united states because of this perception of invading afghanistan so. as well this i mean i saw as not change i mean i i listened to to a speech interview the other night with the. secretary of defense and i i was really wondered which country was talking about because it's really nothing but i know and it's i think they're completely in another world and this is not reality the reality is that you can talk about improvements being made that you're gaining of it's all about it's a guerrilla war and i've experienced crew wars and goal of mozambique ethiopia. if they don't have an offensive for three months that doesn't matter what is going to happen what is happening to the assassinations will increase the i.e.t.f. will increase and they have been increasing august has been the worst month for u.s. troops nato troops in afghanistan so there is no military option and the military who really know afghanistan they know that they know that and the thing is they say

well we need security but the fact is when they leave and if they leave it's search . many areas will be taken over by opposition groups but it may not matter because there are many hardliners in the government and the karzai government who are corrupt or whatever who are even more hardline the total for the opposition groups i think what it is is that you have to forget the labels. and this is how the aid groups were the ones with experience they look at an area and they say ok who are the key players here and they will talk to everyone and they'll talk to nato they'll talk to local elders they'll talk to the government and they basically try and see what is needed the best security your best security is good relations with local communities that this can backfire i mean in august last year two of my friends were murdered were executed american aid workers ten of them

european afghan. armed insurgents we don't know who they were they could have been bad it's they probably were insurgents and because there is no confusion between the soldier and the aid worker this is been brought together by the p.r. tease the snake seems to and the fact is that they don't have mercenaries they don't have armed guards protecting them they were a lot of the local population and we hate being the a.t.m. the ngos with a lot of experience but they cannot deal with the shouldn't deal with massive amounts of money we've given this these contracting companies have no understanding about it they go in with quick fixes there's no long term approach they take a massive overhead i mean i think european and american taxpayers will be horrified to see how their money is being misspent. and yet we continue to give contracts these people i mean i think these companies should be kicked out any company that

needs to needs to work with arms you know with mercenaries with armed contractors should not be working in afghanistan and but they realize ation that it's going to take twenty three. for years that there are no quick fixes but you want thirty years after we've stopped for now the list generous for now you know for the thing is. it's not going to work quickly and the focus has got to be on the countryside where eighty percent seventy five eighty percent of the population live they are so resentful now they've seen all this money come in and they keep asking where has it all gone we have seen no improvement i mean they have been improvements kids seven million kids going to school now in africa in ten years and i should you know damn well hope so but the thing is there are still seven million more who are going to school and you know health has improved you know many women there are no people doctors because a lot of the qualified doctors in afghanistan are working as drivers as interpreters for nato for the world bank for the un they should be better paid

because they're all supporting twenty thirty people and their families more money doing that exactly i think they should be paid enough so they can go work in the rule areas so we i think we have to go back to the basics i revise what we're doing be. it by the way you mentioned a number of other conflicts around the world do you ever run across over here you know probably you know solve here the president south sudan no i never never never so i would not expect any case. you have never been an embedded journalist you know most of what americans and i guess probably the rest of the western world knows about afghanistan and the region in general has come from embedded journalists. why is that information so fundamentally flawed. i think there's some very good reporters on the ground but a lot if nothing majority of the journalists go to afghanistan they are intrigued by the whole military thing and you know reporting for the boys and girls of the

front when they go in as an embed it's comfortable you know you travel with the troops eat well you go to bed and things make a difference but so should say you you know. you know people who should bet exactly but you don't see the afghans and even if you're with soldiers who are with you to go into villages and you interview people they're not going to tell you what they think because after ordinary afghans are caught between the insurgents and the nato forces and you know afghans are survivors they know what i mean they they know that eventually the nato troops will pull out but the insurgents will be there so there are surgeons are not modeled no no no no no. that's right and you know it's that sort of the thing is that when you go in and just report the military situation you really have no idea what's going on in afghanistan and i i went to helmand as with the world with the world bank trip and i was talking first people and i we did one of these trips into a town and you know i've been to a lot of towns of my own and i felt it was

a show and you know we talk to these elders and all i could think of at the time was you know what do they really think i'd like to come back here in my own and in fact in a sense i wouldn't mind where reporters should go back to the days of vietnam where reporters were not in bed but they could leave in the morning go out on a plane come back in the evening but they have the opportunity of going somewhere and of course nato argues we have to protect you and so you have to stay with us i have to sign this call just as velvet glove exactly. edward thank you so much for being late it was a great pleasure and for writing this really and that's it for the big picture tonight for more information on the stories we covered visit our website it's out harben dot com and free speech dot org and. also check out our two you tube channels there are links overcharging dot com this entire show is also available as a free video podcast and i tunes and we have a free telemarketer i thought of i pad app in the cab story he sent us feedback at twitter it's our mothers who are on facebook at top of the school on our blogs

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