it's all false now or a mosque a this is all singing it down below unless a given all the fighting for the country's interim leaders are struggling to form a cabinet meanwhile the french president is facing legal battle at home over his country's actions in the. palestinians are set to take center stage in new york this week to try and secure statehood recognition of the wide support by getting a clash with a veto wielding u.s. the world's key financial institutions say an independent palestine would be strong enough. and the e.u. is calling for calm over the ethnic tension of the rock to put across the bases to

check points of this northern border with serbia and lead to locating the approach roads meanwhile belgrade's told like you stated is all sides seek a diplomatic solution. next cross-talk looks at whether a palestinian seasoned un will mean little more than the paper it's written out of israel and the u.s. may out and welcome. if you can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm teetotal about meaningless symbolism or a game changer in the absence of a peace process the palestinians will ask the united nations to upgrade their current observer status to that of full member state world opinion backs this big but will it change anything on the ground. can.

start. to cross talk of prospects for a palestinian state i'm joined by the end of bhutto in kuranda she is a dubai initiative research fellow palestinian human rights lawyer and a former legal advisor to the palestinian negotiating team and and actual mash we have many more as he is a professor at ben gurion university and his most recent book is one state two states resolving the israel palestine conflict all right this is cross talk and i very much encourage you my guest to jump in you have different points of view and i'd like my viewers to see that but before let's have a look at what's some are calling a do it a magic tsunami. despite months of desperate efforts by the u.s. and israel to head off a move that could become the next tipping point in the middle east the palestinian leadership is heading to the united nations with a firm commitment to seek recognition as a state we are going to the u.n. with all options open we're going to the security council. critics are more than

certain the general assembly will vote in favor of palestinian statehood but president obama has been struggling to keep israeli palestinian negotiations afloat has been clear about his opposition to the bid and has warned they do any such request at the security council for the palestinians efforts to d.j. demise israel will end in failure symbolic actions to isolate israel at the united nations in september won't create an independent state obama's fears are not unwarranted the general assembly vote would leave only the u.s. israel and a handful of other countries and a startling already on the issue sending a message for guarding the legitimacy of the palestinian position in the conflict but above all the vote could cause significant backlash in the middle east already in turmoil from the arab spring the stage is being set for calamity the high risk of palestinian riots to fully claim that state followed by a very tough israeli crackdowns adding fire to the unexpected and unpredictable

popular upheavals in the middle east although initially the cost in years this isn't to go to the un became a fallback option after the negotiations hit a dead end last year the israeli government has warned that the un move would halt the peace efforts i don't think that they will it will get them any closer to the desired other country the meaning of such a step is that they are they prefer to go of provocation so i have been sitting to be cautious in table however it is also possible that fears of a fallout are. overblown and the boat could even inject momentum into the stalled talks predictions about whether the bid or even the notion of palestinian statehood can tangibly transform things on the ground remains to be seen in the upcoming months miesha chardonnay across our team.

ok dan i'd like to go to you first but it's being called a symbolic vote and even worse are you know a lot unilateral act on the part of the palestinians how do you respond to that after twenty years after oslo well it is in fact a unilateral act which is what israel has been doing for the past twenty years of negotiations it's been you know laterally creating facts on the ground and while i'm not somebody who believes that this is going to change anything in any respect i do believe that it's about time that the united nations be used as a tool and this palestine or p.l.o. or whoever it is that's making the begin to put into place measures to actually isolate israel for its ongoing violations of human rights and its ongoing violations of the fourth geneva convention international law and many i mean who can blame the palestinians and they say they haven't really gotten anything out of what's called the peace process i mean this is kind of like the last resort if you so how do you feel about that i mean they feel like they've got nothing out of the

last twenty years since also and this is the last card they can play. well there is something in that except that then one forgets history in the year two thousand the palestinians were offered a state solution in almost all the west bank the gaza strip east jerusalem by in american president bill clinton and they would barak the israeli prime minister and they said no and the problem with what they're doing now is not only is it unilateral but it also involves non recognition of israel as a jewish state in other words their declaring their statehood a but not accepting israel as their neighbor and it's not clear whether the even will accept the sixty seven borders this is in contrast incidentally with one thousand nine hundred forty seven when the un decided on the partition of palestine into two states and israel at the time accepted a palestinian state next to a jewish state and palestinians of course turned down the can state offer in one nine hundred forty seven as they did in the year two thousand ok dan i mean this

issue of recognizing israel's a jewish state but what good that negate the right of return for palestinians to palestine. absolutely and this is why palestinians will never recognize israel as a jewish state nor should we be asked to recognize israel as a jewish state in other words what morris and other individuals are saying is in demanding that the palace that we call citizens recognize israel as a jewish they were actually were actually demanding that we accept the ethnic cleansing of our homeland and this is something that no palestinian leader including mahmoud abbas as non-confrontational as he is is going to accept but i want to get back to some of the other issues that have also been mentioned which is that of the negotiations i was somebody who was actually at the negotiations and there was no palestinian state that was offered during any period of the negotiations there was always an end idea that israel is going to continue to control the palestinians control their lives control their air sprays their

territory their water etc and there's never been this idea that palestinians should be allowed to be free this is what palestinians are seeking now whether it's going to come at the hands of the united nations or in another form what really needs to be cemented is this idea that israel has to relinquish control over our lives in order for us to be able to live i mean a lot of people would say abide by international recognition of a palestinian state is that it creates a level playing field instead of this hopeless peace process that we've seen which hasn't brought peace to israel hasn't given the state to the palestinians and the enormous amount of mistrust that's there why can't another state be there and then you start to go shooting borders i mean maybe we should just do it the other way around well. well we could do that but hey i am all for a palestinian state and i'm all for a from state solution the problem is the palestinians in this in this action and in their continuing demand for refugee return in effect saying we want all of

palestine first we will take the west bank and receive international recognition for that on the gaza strip and then from then from there we will use it as a springboard to conquer the rest of palestine and though israel is no jewish state this unfortunately is the fear of most israelis myself included it both in terms of what a bus is doing and what is the majority party in palestine the hamas wants they say so clearly the bus doesn't say so clearly doing it in two stages but they're out in a cleaning at the same goal and this is very unfortunate then if it can you respond to that because for twenty years with our spins and the israelis have been working together i mean the big hasn't been a peace process but they've worked together do you believe that the there's that deep seated plan where we dispersed get the west bank and we get gaza is recognized as a state and then the destruction of israel because i don't come across that argument very often if any and i don't live in israel now look i think it's really important

to put this in perspective the first perspective is that the palestinians have repeatedly recognized israel they did it in eighty eight they did explicitly in one thousand nine hundred three in every single agreement there is been a recognition of israel every single palestinian leader has not has addressed say that they recognize israel. well you know the community that is the jewish if you may if you may allow me to continue i will answer your question now the problem is that israel has never recognized palestine there is not a single israeli political party in the knesset that has recognized palestine and palestine is right to exist now going back to the issue of the jewish state the issue of the jewish state is something that was recently added to the negotiations ensuring that period that actually negotiations existed there was no demand for a jewish state in the reason that this demand is now cropping up is because israel wants to extinguish the rights of millions of palestinian refugees and wants to

ensure that it has the right and the legitimacy to continue to carry out very discriminatory measures and racist measures against the palestinian refugees and against their own citizens who happen to have who happen not to be jewish this is why no palestinian leader will accept that but in terms of recognizing the actual state and the existence of a state every single political leader has come forward and recognized israel there has not been however i were supercool recognition of palestine is right to exist by any israeli leader hamas hamas is correct hamas has recognized israel you see every political leader hamas represents more than half of the palestinian people and they did not recognize israel under any conditions i'm going through the season see them . ben in fact they have let me in fact they have first images right here in this era of have. seen please if you will allow me to finish and not cut me off i have

given you that luxury first as medea seen the spiritual leader of hamas before he was assassinated came out in an interview in haaretz which is an israeli newspaper and said that if israel withdraws completely to the one nine hundred sixty seven borders then in exchange for that withdrawal they will recognize israel and so too has every other leader of hamas including most recently khaled mashaal who equally said that palestinians want to establish a state on the sixty seven borders and this is exactly what he would in talking about is that instead of what is really nothing through reasons to actually an interesting is not true it is true and you can actually go to the other try that you are historian and you can go now to say is most of them factual i can tell you what marshall says you know he was willing to do or at least in the early truce with israel. said that he's willing to reach a temporary a temporary truce with israel also this is really it is because he is willing to

accept when all this is just going to say no that's true that's true he says he doesn't know that there are really serious shows here in germany are we going to break in after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine top state party. if you can. in the far away land. where human life is ruled by nature. the discussion east of planet earth is scarcely preserved by the clear. creek and shamil lie hidden in the deep permafrost. and for those who deal with them prehistoric

times are still much of. a move from. the mood of. the. can.

welcome back your proscar computable to mind you were talking about what the future holds for the palestinians. kick. started. ok benny and i think how do you let's let's could do a hypothetical here you know the general assembly the vast majority the country the general assembly support the palestinian bid for changing its status of united nations we know that the united states will veto it but in the hypothetical case how would this change once the united nations takes a vote it will be in favor of the palestinians how will this change israel's position or will it not change at all. ok let me say something first about what was said until now hamas says clearly it wants to destroy israel that's what it says in its founding charter that is still the constitution of that organization and

mahmoud abbas the head of the p.l.o. says he will not recognize israel as a jewish state these are facts hey you can say whatever you like people can try and sell you propaganda but these are the facts as to what's going to happen on the ground i don't know i don't know how any poll by the united nations general assembly. will change the situation on the ground what it probably will do is it will incite the masses masses of palestinians the violence and masses of arabs outside of palestine to support what they see as the palestinian cause and a we've seen some of that already in the streets of cairo when they than july's this really embassy i assume these sort of things are going to happen in the arab world and in this in pay in palestine itself in the west bank in the gaza strip there will be massive demonstrations attempts to breach israeli settlements all of this will lead to violence and where that goes where we go from there i have no idea well i think the violence will has already started i mean when we look at the arab spring here

then it's very interesting here really the u.s. position because united states again is going to look very lonely on the international stage when you look at world opinion and if we look at the arab spring what's going on i mean you know the united states will come out in say it supports the freedom of some people but it will not do that for the palestinians apparently and it doesn't do it for the people of bahrain also by the way i mean how does this change the dynamic or does it at all because of the position of the united states in the greater middle east the arab world is so poor anyway. well this is where i think the palestinian leadership needs to take a good hard look at itself and take learn some lessons which is that for the past twenty years the focus has been entirely on changing opinion in washington and changing somehow getting american president to support palestinian statehood and support palestinian freedom that's not going to happen and i think that they should begin to recognize that that's not going to happen and instead i think that the

palestinian leadership should search turning its direction to a completely different direction and start looking towards other countries around the world to isolate israel for its ongoing human rights abuses its ongoing violations of international law and the fact that israel continues to build settlements in the west bank these are considered war crimes under the statute of the international criminal court so one thing that i think that might be positive and come out of this is that if collison gets to sign on to the international criminal court then i think it's important for palestine to then start taking israel to court for the fact that these settlements continue for as much as an israeli leader may say that they support a palestinian state one thing that they're not willing to do is to actually hold the establishment of colonies settlements and they're not willing to to evacuate the settlers who have been residing there illegally on palestinian land for more than four decades i mean what what can be. moving forward

their policy in recognizing a second state as you write about i mean what does that have to do i mean when the international community is saying that the occupation must come to an end a lot of israelis want to end the calculation as well how can it be done in light of this vote to reduce this vote just symbolism so many people in israel and washington say. i believe the patient shouldn't and i think you are being unfair to the americans the americans have supported palestinian statehood and continue to support palestinian state the problem for the palestinians is that the americans also support israeli statehood and this they find anathema a one perhaps advantage which might polarize from a declaration of palestinian state called an acceptance by the united nations of palestinian statehood would be that the palestinians could also be taken to court in the international court in the hague see for the promotion of terror for the promotion of terrorism and orchestration of terrorism by people in the gaza strip and maybe in the west bank as well so i have a feeling this may be a two edged sword well it's interesting that so you know i was going to ask. yes i

see it israel's also take it to the international criminal court for particularly for its actions over gaza and the killing of over fourteen hundred palestinians in the gaza strip half of which were children so i certainly hope that we begin to take this to an international arena and i can assure the israelis that on this level the palestinians will win because international law is on the side of the palestinian cause it's israel that has been i not so sure shall i i'm not the palestinians i know i'm not so sure go ahead i'm not so sure that your history of the israelis have been. yes but i know a little more about the past apparently i don't think the palace israelis have been in violation of international law more moral than the palestinians but but you have a history history in terms of a different story the problem the problem is that the palestinians have been offered a two state solution a compromise since one thousand nine hundred thirty seven one thousand nine hundred thirty seven one nine hundred forty seven one thousand nine hundred seventy eight

two thousand and two thousand and eight when it would almost offered again a two state solution to the palestinians on the right bus and the palestinians have always said no the problem is that this action of going to the united nations that the paper is not mr morrison just that the palestine papers say nothing their selection of documents from god knows where they're not important we don't really know where the palestinian stand what we do know is when olmert put a package on the table about said no the same as when a bill clinton put the package on the table in yasser arafat's of no that we know ok daniel said i'm just an idle kid somebody said mara in a conversation. so i'm sure that under that package may or first i want to i want to put it pose a question to mr morris which is that let's assume we can go back to the partition plan now would you accept the partition plan now in other words would you accept that that your state be comprised of less than fifty five percent of what it is now

are you talking about the one nine hundred forty seven partition maran of the night of the two thousand and yet what i'm about is can you play masculists nine hundred forty two i'm asking about the nine hundred. little you now let me roll back the clock every response and actually our space. let me respond i didn't think i would read back you know because i think history doesn't allow people's true in on their mistakes in other words the palestinians in forty seven should have resisted the partition plan as the jews did they said no and you lose when you go to war against an international an internationally sponsored settlement and you lose the war then you can say well now i want to go back to the status quo ante that doesn't happen in history a the fasts is the cell creation is a mystery more israel doesn't possess not agree to give up more money rhenish. go ahead benny finish or godhead. you know you're so you're what happened after forty

eight is that israel retain seventy eight percent of palestine and the arabs not the palestinians we're in a tension of about twenty two percent and that essentially is the sixty seven border so the theory is really for which an international community that's the internet what the international community support let's listen. and most is very easy to assume i really support this really support the sixty seven good night my point my point in all of this my point in all this peter is that it's very well and good for people to now in the year two thousand and eleven talk about what the policy should have done it in one nine hundred forty seven but if we actually look back to what has done what happened in history if now benny morris is in that very same position he would not agree to give up any more of his of of the territory that israel controls even already he's not willing to give up the territory that israel controls in terms of the sixty seven borders so i think it's fictitious to start talking about the offers that palestinians turned down and i think we should

instead start looking towards the future and the future is if the israelis want to have peace they have to begin to recognize the palestinians as equals and this is something that no israeli leader has committed himself to whether it's under the guise of two states or one state all that i want is to be treated as an equal and all that any morris and all of the other israeli establishment want is to continue to subjugate me their caring here in lies the problem really i mean look i don't really i don't belong to this i don't belong i don't belong to the israeli establishment my historical works show that quite well. what i see is that the palestinians should ask their minds. and accept the equal rights and have a two state solution so long as they refuse a two state solution and want all of palestine there will be no settlement no peace only violence go ahead i think that our policies have already accepted the two

state solution it's a israel hasn't exactly they haven't the fact that we know is the no longer there are more of them. actually housing units being established just last month alone we saw more than six thousand two hundred housing units being established in in the west bank this is a clear indication that israel doesn't want to have a two state solution but instead it wants to create balance your stance for the carcinogens and this is something that no palestinian leader including the likes of us is going to accept unfortunately benny i have always i've always opposed to the settlement enterprise i continue to oppose the circle and settlement enterprise as an obstacle to peace it is an obstacle to peace but it's not the major obstacle to peace the major obstacle to peace is the palestinian desire to wipe israel off the map this is the problem ok i'm going to give you the out. this is going to be she's just going to isolate israel more and if it isolates

israel more because it got make israel just put it back up against the wall we don't go anywhere here. i certainly hope it does isolate israel and i certainly hope that spawning from this we begin to see boycotts of israel we begin to see sanctions imposed on israel and we begin to see more and more international activity in an international legal arena rather than through this farcical negotiations that have taken place it's time for israel to be held accountable and i hope it certainly is after this after this u.n. session ok bill you will you give your last word twenty seconds go ahead. i really wish that the palestinians would return to the negotiating table to which they've been invited repeatedly and actually do so seriously in good faith and negotiate the state solution if they want to do that there won't be any settlement the palestinians will continue to suffer all right we'll see what happens next week many thanks to my guests today in toronto and in bet shemesh and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.

see you next time and remember prostate falls. can stay. in the same. limitations three critical patients three times for charges free from h m m's three. three. free. download free broadcast live video for your media project a free media don carty dot com.

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