ok rule suites hotel room pacific silver resort and spa. in israel look she's available in some of the children of derrius some of them who killed your recent. nine thirty am in moscow these are your arty headlines israel calls for a resumption of bilateral peace talks with the palestinians seen by many as a last ditch effort to prevent them from asking for recognition on the world stage the palestinians plan to formally ask for a seat at the united nations this friday the euro zone's third largest economy takes a hit below the belt as its credit rating is downgraded scarth and fears of an even deeper financial crisis italy's the latest of six euro zone countries have taken out a credit tumble this year. and multiculturalism under the microscope turkey's president visits berlin trying to break down

a wall of issues facing immigrants in germany this comes as some germans say they feel threatened by the ever growing wave of immigration hold up next spotlight algren of sits down with poland's former deputy prime minister who's earned the title of the best reformer in the european union stay with us. in the faraway land. where human life is ruined by nature. of planet earth is spears with preserved by the poor. engineer animals lie hidden in the deep permafrost. and to those who deal with them restored times are still not sure.

how again a welcome just fossil i'd be entering the show. i'm always all of them today my guest is. salvage impose recent history of the country had a little time to convert it's commie planned economy into a complex market fact that there have been no precedents and the country needed a qualify and charismatic economist to do the job and here less about sort of each came up with the idea shop. many years later it brought him the title of the first reformer in the european union his former polish deputy prime minister sort of. when tony just regimes in eastern europe were close to collapse it was clear there was truth that economies wouldn't stand a chance against the free market the need for reform was clear in poland one of the

leading economists lessig boats around each offered a package of shock measures later known as the plan it was designed to allow the tradition of a state controlled economy to market oriented mechanisms to short circuit fights was immense over a million people lost their jobs but very. clearly there are people with companies which provided jobs for one point five million people it became the basis of shock there are plans in other communist economies including russia recently the european enterprise institute described plastic boxes as the best reformer in the european union. about service and welcome to the show thank you very much thank you very much for coming well first of all today you are in the top five on the list of the most popular polish presentations but what about the public opinion that there in the

ninety's were you as popular as you had today initially yes because their expectations and most people wanted to change the system to have low inflation but of course with the passage of time and the turnout down not on the benefits but also sound costs. has fallen he was fluctuating but now more and more people realize that it was worse transforming importance accordingly so so what you just said. makes me think that the most difficult thing about reforms in the needles in russia at that time was changing the mentality of the people well was changing changing their expectations there were not i think you have to change the conditions under which people operate and work thank you have to do it in a radical way and then people are just many people just as they started

a new way. it just gave us so i didn't want to try to change mentality because i was not a preacher i wanted to change the conditions to improve the conditions for all good work. for research etc well for us for a journalist having an expert in poland and i have never written actually a lot about travel but for us there that time was fun i mean great fun and in poland sell it out of my arse left all those cracks off and oh well all those things and so it was i mean real for real i mean life they have the blood pumping in so i want to put you know bets you know the conditions you know what was behind the hind these pictures here so what were the conditions in pearl was it was in any any simular to what we had in russia during the person riker when there was girlish on the screen but nothing nothing in the food stores. we had.

to extraordinary periods in poland's recent history the first one making a tomato one and there was a first solidarity movement which was unprecedented under communism socialism because the independent organisation. and ours had became a hero but it was surprised by the introduction of national interest i mean then you had nine rather gloomy years. there was not much like the end of the chill no but it appeared and then there was a compromise or negotiations a round table in poland the creation of the new government with the first noncommunist prime minister there was most of the sea and i was asked to take the responsibility for the economic reforms and coming to your question well certainly goes. to niger and russia. two years later we have a very very difficult and i think economy congress and very very high inflation.

production also falling. we have we have verified in following the. results how the exchange was very very low so it was a cut us off it was also a great opportunity to standardize and reform the country. it's an interesting thing listen when you went to school and when i went to school the only russia that it was this was the same period of time it was becoming a communist rule growth and probably russia so the only type of economy we studied was marxist economy and marxist leninist economy so who were you teaching is how did you get an opportunity to learn about the transition to learn about how what so an economist can do with a client state economy to change it who taught you well so paul i was not very good

at econ and political economy. i was always proud of the fact that the great. second i was interested in. history because of the mathematics thirty health certain the exact science. being able to count years to reason to calculate my best advise as well physicists or math or not to some of these market reforms i never recruited caught almost who were educated and the source of the problem is. pollard was a bit more open german a promise of a union so we could travel and i was a possibility to spur the united states well you did. education which was called master of public administration business and your converse of that certainly hope when you were when you were pretty i was the youngest one was called. president's

office and swore so and i was. i was over this opportunity to say i spent almost two years in new york and. did you have an opportunity to complete your reforms well well all that there was and this is by the by the. better rubbish plan was it all done was an old old guy my friend. three years of mission and they're working for the with the team saw we have advanced basic reforms liberalizing the economist and started to boost basic institutions of stock exchange starting privatization bond sales in a better situation proper legal point of view but of course even three years is not enough and so i have the second stage but until like night so until thousands of i was also a deputy prime minister we have accelerated some other forms of well in transition

from state to market economy russia too had to go through some very painful reforms spotlight's even in the me there has more in that. words like inflation or unemployment were very distant to reality for the so that people who prices and decent wages were guaranteed by the state starting the nineteen eighties when the world was hit by a new crisis it was harder and harder to keep things the way they were mikhail gorbachev came up with very strong but the reforms he introduced did not bring relief after the fool of the soviet union and government came up with the so-called shock therapy the author of the radical reforms he grew very dark remains a controversial figure for russians in one thousand nine hundred two prices were freed and the savings of millions of people devalued overnight industries had to

adapt to new market economy and the lack of states. would lead to massive job losses millions were used into poverty greater supporters say there was simply no alternative to this type of change to save people me from total disaster and the country from civil war. people had to learn to survive in a new economic reality and some are still unable to be philosophical about the reforms to them it was just the worst time in their lives. you might gorbachev in ninety ninety one the first chance i was the first voting politician who came up with the official visit to russia just after this failed coup after the coup. i think you talked to him what was his opinion on the reforms that you were carrying out in poland and he was very

polite. also but he wasn't crazy. i don't know i can't somehow but certainly he said he was very much interested in policy experience invited me to come great but when i came for the second time it was december and i to wonder was all of the change in russia i talked to i spoke to. him to you go gaidar interest the man we've discussed but i was russia entering to listen is it true that yeltsin when you met him in ninety one was ready to offer you any job any salary if you only stayed in russia but you but you but you chose to go to poland. i thought this was just a polite way of expressing his appreciation so little respect and said but i never considered this to be more than just a very kind. trying for words that certainly we have. imported the

interesting conversation. he was at the time in the city. it is my purse and he asked me what is going to be in facial i bought in russia i want your little eyes i remember i told them higher than for cost that not. theirs was the polish experience the. kind that says a lesser by the former polish deputy prime minister spotlight we'll be back shortly we'll continue this insidious awfully short great sound don't go away stay with us . this was a city. of about one hundred ninety thousand people here he thousand people working for general motors. or drug dependent and general motors.

general motors says if it's not relations you it might be your neighbor somebody new it's also kind of family run business you know myself i'm third generation my father was working there and you have a lot of two three and four generation families their first let's understand it is that this is a family doesn't want. any should not. it is gone who want a man to work with us. i think for a long time this notion in america that bigger is better was simply an undisputed fact in the twenty first century smarter better general motors simply became too large for their own good and so many brands that they couldn't even keep up with they just basically became a dinosaur. which was. just.

three couldn't take three days for. the maintenance free. free. free. download free. for your media. free media odone tarty tom tom. welcome back to spotlight i'm al green of and just a reminder that my guest in the studio today is less invites around which the former polish deputy prime minister the man who reformed poland in the late one nine hundred eighty s. and the ninety's as a matter of fact national park poland's annual growth rate in not in

a nine hundred eighty nine two thousand was any of the highest in all post communist economies on the contrary in guiders russia you said you followed by those reforms in united gaidar and yeltsin going to shove and that was before his lead led russia to the biggest economic slump since world war two so what was the reason the the difference in the initial conditions of the reforms all the math and so maybe something else but i think it's a mistake to blame great us reforms for this recession because a recession was to do with documentation of problems communism distorted in kong a man distended the nina many people being have to feel nostalgia for these all ties about this whole case could not have been one thing it was a collapsing economy first second as they are the noted they have in poland

possibilities to introduce more reforms that need russia initially there's always having to do small treatment. see the economists with problems like sick patients so you need a treatment if you introduce less treatment and have less effects of certain diseases or problems. why would you have this possibility which created them because the country's big. huge problems where there was even more would have to have constitutional problems to the public constitution conflict. the problem of negotiating borders i think this has the studies the musky i'm not blaming it on the guy i understand but what i see where when i was when i was expecting here in the studio i read about your reforms there realized that gaidar copied a lot from what you did but not everything worked as smoothly as with as in poland

. lessons. coalitional russian if you have hyperinflation you have to it's very dangerous what we can and for the people so you have to act very decisively and quickly this is the safest strategy so we have did it without. i think it was for political reasons programs more delay in russia does one difference we have to liberalize the climate much more massively. there was let's less liberalization if you liberates less you have less competition and you have oligarchs of less competition we have liberalized much more we don't have this problems which is too. politically connected on the cox is it true that polls in general are more business minded than russia and i don't think that they have always been more ready to start making money now no i don't think so that culture

matters on march first of all conditions in every society you have enough and triple an area of people so far the differences in conditions for them if you haven't already relations less freedom less opportunity. don't use there's a potential to the same extent as in countries which have introduced more freedoms this is the disappearance you know what some people say they say that they say that each introduce shafter b. and gaidar turned it into a shock without terribly the word but it is more than just a phrase sounds good does not replace the truth the truth is ok. listen you are here now this is not you know any russian moscow does not mean the russian policy makers the russian front asians are still they still need your advice they still interested in your experience in film but this is not my advice personally because i say so there's no universal lessons if you have too much space

as an owner that's bad both for the economy and for politics so you have to privatized needs you did call it to save the economy if inflation is ten percent a year like in russia it's too high so the central bank has to lower inflation that's possible we had to invent i became the central banker in the year two thousand and one inflation also about ten percent in five years time and you brought it down to two percent so it's possible that there are universal lessons and i don't think it is very difficult to learn about them that's absolutely crucial it's political will. to draw to use these universal lessons do you think that the main problem with russia is that the economy in russia is too politicized we should be politicized we certainly are proud of their usual because of excessive politicization in various ways russia has actually been a very political country you know you have

a. period. it seems to me that when i read your history that you are on the way a date of nathan century early twentieth century to become a democratic capitalist in pencil did something an accident happen and well it didn't work. or call it. now. ok now. there is a good cry out about about what you did with your own country. again as pearl had proved to be the only evil country where the current world economic crisis didn't cause economic slump is it true and what was this supposed recipe for success if it's that's true that we have avoided recession meaning negative growth but we have not avoided a slowdown really the rate of growth two thousand and eight will stifle scientific has fallen to one point seven but not negative is the positive right so the

combination of say several factors first we have avoided the credit boom if you have a credit bull then you will usually have it passed this was the case in the baltics . in spain in russia too there was excessive girls of credit in russia so we had avoided this wraps because the central bank in prague was pretty conservative and the regulations also don't. we are russia for example parents in exports. commodities oil and gas and they and their prices are rising and falling from the dock fortunately we don't have so much natural resources and problems so our economy is much more diverse and this is the second for i think important reason the third one is that policy karna when it comes to compare polish economy policy corner with the politics even hunger policy cannabis much larger so we depend much stress on foreign shocks straight shocks you know. fortunately you don't have

a lot of natural resources i once talked to the prime minister of the old bailey and i was amazed when they knew they had a lot of oil you know a lot of what would already have been yeah and i asked him how come there was so so much oil used to pour and he said you know. when god gave some countries lots of oil they unfortunately didn't give them enough grains and you would. know how to research design patients here they are victims as a matter of fact some people say that there are predictions that. for example saudi oil minister you have money said that that given the political situation well what price can go to two two to three hundred dollars there pretty soon wouldn't be very bad for. produce shock to important country was very good in the longer. the world this would strengthen sense of still be less dependent on oil so

in the longer run would not be very good for exporting countries. so for russia such such prices could be even damaging so they would weaken incentives to reform what industries are growing today in contemporary poland what are the main industries remove a versified and you could never plan. absolutely no don't try to plan what industries have to be successful because this usually face is national champions are national losers not mentioning chantal's but we do trade we liberalize but we did not strike advantage so that it will conditions so that you can better than the market. the market the competition. shaping a structure so we are exporting vast but also all sun electronics food

stars etc very diversified. presence of russia today lots to talk about innovation the scope of the project he said innovation is the key to success do you agree do you think that that he cannot be growth should be based on in the vision and doesn't the doesn't the japanese example show that it then it's questionable. oh i think innovation is the most importantly universal source of growth. but the key is what to do to have regular you know variations and for that you need lots of competition. you need a limited state you need to rule of law so that people would have certain you could confidence trust to invest into research into investments or you can get you know racially based economy if you create a proper. conditions for that. any solution you can propose to the current eurozone crisis like like is subsidizing pro countries by

countries like germany is it the only way out. certainly not the orbit and solution . it's useful to stress the eurozone problems are in fact problems resulting from bad policies for of certain countries greece because they were they were expanding their fiscal expenditures until they became bankruptcy it is not the fault of europe because it's the fault of that policies in greece in spain in term there was a. too much credit generated by the parents or credit record sector also they were boom and bust and the fact that the fiscal position of the main conclusion is that you're in itself is not at fault but you're requires much better policies from the members meaning more discipline. less boom and bust and i think the conclusion would be in the respective countries to create better framework for

better policies that void accidents. so this is this is interesting i mean a former soviet country minister trying to see what shall you do on the. full source trying to teach the europeans to be this simple and this it will go to the records of most disappeared in europe during this crisis the baltics of all the culture to see them now also also look for. guardian soldiers and also x. so there is a lot to keep teaching each day west until it's ok thank you thank you very much for being with us it was fun talking to you just a reminder that my guest in the studio today was less problems at all which in the form of polish deputy prime minister and that's it for now from all of this he will be back with more for his kind comments on what's going on in and outside russia until then stay on our team and take it thank you thanks betty.