the national transitional council as the country's official representative. interview shows. sits down with poland's former deputy prime minister stay with us for that. however again i welcome. today my guest is. in polish recent history of the country had a little time to convert. me into a complex market that. there had been no precedence in the country needed qualified and charismatic economists to do the job and here. came up with

the idea shop. many years later brought him the title of the best reformer in the european union his former polish deputy prime minister. when communist regimes in eastern europe were close to collapse it was clear their restricted economies wouldn't stand a chance against the free market the need for reform was clear in poland one of the leading economists. for the package of shock measures later known as the plan it was designed to allow the tradition of a state controlled economy to a market oriented mechanism for the short term sekret finance was immense over a million people lost their jobs but very quickly there were people arrive at companies which provided jobs for one point five million people in became the basis of shock therapy plans in other communist economies including russia recently the european enterprise institute described. as the best reformer in the european union

. welcome to the show thank you very much thank you very much for coming well first of all today you are. top finance on the list of the. most popular polish probably tensions but what about the public opinion that there in the ninety's were you as popular as you had today initially yes because there are expectations and most people wanted to change the system to have low inflation but of course with the passage of time and the turnout they are not on the benefits about those costs my popular has fallen he was fluctuating but now more and more people realize that it was worse transforming paul a star because in politic on so so what you just said. makes me think

that the most difficult thing about reforms in poland maybe also in russia at that time was changing the mentality of the people well what was changing changing their expectations there or not i think you have to change the conditions under which people operate and work and you have to do it in a radical way and then people are just many people are just as they are behavior they started to arc in a new way and some of the adjust the views so i didn't want to try to change mentality because i was not a preacher i wanted to change the conditions to improve the conditions for good work for an apprenticeship. for research etc well for for us for journalists i'm the next period in poland and i i've never written actually a lot about problem but for us there that time was fun i mean great fun i mean poland sell it out an arse left all those crack off and all all those things and so

it was i mean real fun real i mean life over there and the blood pumping and so on to put you know bets you know the conditions you know what was behind behind these pictures yet so what were the conditions in poland was it was in any any similar to what we had in russia during the purser ica when there was garbage on the screen but nothing nothing in the food stores that we have to endure until you have to extraordinary periods in poland's recent history of the first one nine hundred eighty nine to one and there was a first solidarity movement which was unprecedented and the communist or socialist because this was the independent organization. and now as i became a hero about it was surprised by the introduction of martial law in december eighty one and then you had nine rather gloomy years. and there was not much right to the end of the children but it appeared and then there was

a compromise of negotiations that round they bring poland the creation of the new government with the first one comes prime minister to the ocean as of the sea and i was asked to take the responsibility for the economic reforms and coming to your question there are certainly those hundred tonight and russia. two years later we have a very very difficult there are not the key economic conditions similar very very high inflation hyperinflation production also falling. in poland to be have very heading for and. foreign reserves. exchange was very very low so it was a cut us off but that was also a great opportunity to study allies and reform the country. well it's an interesting thing listen when you went to school and when i went to school the only russia but it was it was the same period of time it was becoming

a communist rule both in poli russia so the only type of economy we studied was marxist economy and marxist leninist economy so who were you teachers how did you get an opportunity to learn about the transition to learn about how what so an economist can do with a plan to save your economy to change it who taught you first of all i was not very good at econ and political economy. i was always proud of go to bed great that i was interested in other subjects like history of i thought of mathematics thirty health certain exact science. being able to count years the reason to calculated by the way my best advisors were physicists and mathematicians from the two forms i never recruited a politician columnists who were educated on the source of

a problem is and thirty pollard was a bit more open. is german of the promise of a union so we could travel and they also offered the possibility to start the united states so you did. education which is called master of public administration business from new york university certainly hope when you were when you were pretty i was the younger sister. called central school of planning and so this is in warsaw and i was i was over this opportunity so i spent almost two years in new york. did you have an opportunity to complete your reforms well all that there was in the visit by the by the and butter of his plan was it all done was it all i have been told by my friend. i have three years of initiative and with the team saw we have advanced basic reforms

liberalizing the economist and started to vis basic institutions stock exchange starting privatization but so i was in a better situation proper legal point of view but of course even three years is not enough so i have the second stage between two like ninety seven and two thousand and i have i was also a deputy prime minister we have accelerated some other reforms well. from state to market economy russia too had to go through some very painful reforms spotlight see the need to me there has more in that. words like inflation or unemployment were very distant to reality for the so that people low prices and decent wages were guaranteed by the state starting the nineteen eighties when the world was hit by an oil crisis it was harder and harder to keep things the way they

were mikhail gorbachev came up with very strong but the reforms he introduced did not bring relief after the fool of the soviet union in government came up with the so-called shock therapy the also of the radical reforms he grew gaidar remains a controversial figure for russians in one thousand nine hundred two prices were freed and the savings of millions of people devalued overnight industries had to adapt to new market economy ruined their lack of state support led to massive job losses millions witnessed into poverty. guider supporters say there was simply no alternative to this type of change to save people only from disaster and the country from civil war ordinary people had to learn to survive in the new economic reality and some are still unable to be fooled still fickle about the reforms to them it was just two words time in their lives. you might gorbachev

in ninety ninety one the first chance i was the first falling politician who came with the official visit to russia just after this failed call after the coup happened that i i you talk to what was his opinion on the reforms that you were carrying out in poland and he was very polite . also but he was crazy about the i don't know i can see how that certainly he said he was very much interested in policy experience he invited me to come later but and i came for the second time it was the same night of our doors or the change in russia i talked to i spoke to. two you go gaidar interesting event we've discussed what i was russia mentoring to listen is it true that yeltsin when you

met him in ninety one was ready to offer you any job any salary if you stayed in russia but you but you but you chose to go to poland is that true i thought this was just a pov very polite way of expressing his appreciation so little respect he said but i never considered this to be more than just a very kind. kind words that certainly we have. in part of an interesting conversation. he was at the time in citizen and person. and he asked me what is going to be in phase. and i bought in russia wants to liberalize i remember i told him hi again for costs that not. theirs was the polish experience the full and says. the former polish deputy prime minister spotlight will be back shortly we'll continue this interview after a short break south don't go away stay with us.

well in the future weapons grade plutonium is turned into a vital new resource nuclear waste becomes a fuel friendly to the environment and energy outposts among the earth russian scientists lead the way in making these innovations a reality in a future free from fears of nuclear clips the peaceful revolution to comic energy on technology. we've got the future covered. welcome back to spotlight i'm going off and just in mind that my guest in the studio today is less should bow to the form of polish deputy prime minister the man who reformed poland in the late one nine hundred eighty s. and the ninety's as a matter of fact nashik the poland's annual growth rate in not in nine

hundred eighty nine two thousand was i mean the highest in all post communist economies in the country and guide. as russia you said you followed guidance reforms and you met a guy there and yeltsin going to be sure of the reforms led led russia to the biggest economic slump since world war two so what was the reason the the difference in the initial conditions of the reforms or the methods or maybe something else and i think it's a mistake to blame god as reforms for this recession because a recession was due to documentation of problems under communism distorted economy i understand that the nina many people. have a few nostalgia for this all ties about this old place could not have been maintained it was a collapsing economy first second as they are the knowledge that you have in poland possibilities to introduce more reforms than you do russia initially always having

to do small treatment. economists with problems like sick patients so you need a treatment if you introduce less treatment you have less effects of certain diseases or problems later and accumulate why why did you have this possibility which go there because the country is bigger why it were it was a. huge progress in russia where there was even more you have still you have constitutional problems the constitution conflict. the problem of negotiating borders so i think this was the star is now mostly i'm not blaming it on the guy and i understand it well but what i see where when i was when i was expecting here in the studio i read about your reforms there realized that gaidar copied a lot from what you did but not everything worked as smoothly as with as in poland

does i mean events are lessons specifically polish and russian if you have hyperinflation. you have to act it's very dangerous will be karma and for the people so you have to act very decisively and quickly this is the safest strategy so we kind of did it area and without much of the i think there was for political reasons programs and all the way in russia does one difference we have liberalized the common and much more massively. there was lots less liberalization if you liberalise less you have less competition and you have oligarchs more of less competition we have bluegrass much more and you don't have this problems which is referred to as politically connected all the gox is it true that poles in general are more business minded than russia and i don't think that they have always been more ready to start making money now no i don't think so that culture matters on march first of all conditions in every society you have enough intrapreneur people

so far the differences in conditions for them if you have more regulations less freedom less opportunity. don't use this potential to the same extent as in countries which have introduced more freedom this is the basic difference you know what some people say they say that they say that which introduce shop terribly and gaidar turned it into shock without terribly knowing about it is more than just. sounds good that does not reflect the truth the truth is ok. listen you are here now does that you know i mean russia and moscow does that mean the russian policy makers the russian projections are still they still need your advice they still interested in your experience in poland well this is not my advice personally because i say said suddenly very slow lessons if you have too much state as an owner that's bad both for the economy and for politics so you have to

privatized the true news you did politicize the economy if inflation is ten percent a year like in russia it's too high so the central bank has to lower interest and that's possible we had to invent i became the central bank in the year two thousand and one inflation was about ten percent but in five years time we brought it down to two percent so it's possible that there are universal lessons and i don't think it is very difficult to learn about what what's absolutely crucial political will. to draw to use these universal lessons do you think that the main problem with russia is that the economy in russia is too politicized we should be politicized at the granary certainly there are problems there usually because of excessive politicization in various ways russia has actually been a very political country you know you. judge your history of the human experience.

it seemed to me that when i read your history that you are on the way a date of one thousand century early twentieth century to become a democratic capitalist a country did something an accident happened and well it didn't work. or call it that but now. ok now. there is a good quote about what you did with your own country or again this parliament proved to be the only eat you country where the current world economic crisis didn't cause an economic slump is it true and what was this polish recipe for success if it's true that we have avoided recession meaning negative growth that we had not avoided a slowdown the rate of growth two thousand and eight was five percent decrease fallen to one point seven but not negative still positive why so combination of sector several factors first we have avoided the credit boom if you have

a credit bull then you will usually have a blast this was the case in the baltics ins in spain in russia too there was excessive girls of credit in russia so we had avoided this wraps because the central banking problem was pretty conservative and b you sound regulations all second. we are russia for example depends in exports stand on commodities oil and gas and they and their prices are rising and falling we docked fortunately we don't have so much natural resources in poland so our economy is much more diversified this is the second i think important reason the third one is that polish economy where need comp when you compare polish economy parlance you can i would the baltics or even hungary polity kannan is much larger so we depend much stress on foreign shocks rachael's you know. fortunately they don't have a lot of natural resources i once talked to the prime minister of albania and i was

amazed when i knew they had a lot of oil you have a lot of oil in the area have been yeah and i asked him how come there is so much oil in use poor and he said you know. when god gave some countries lots of oil they unfortunately didn't give them enough brains and he looked me. in natural resources i didn't care of patients here they are victim to show as a matter of fact some people say that there are predictions that for example saudi oil minister iyad money said that that that given the political situation well what price can go to two two to three hundred dollars pretty soon wouldn't be very bad for a little kid who was produced the shock to importing country was not very good the longer around. the world this would strengthen center of still be less dependent on

oil so in the longer run it will do not be very good for exporting countries. so for russia this such such prices could be even damaging so i think they would weaken incentives to reform what industries are growing today contemporary poland what are the main industries stream a diversified and you could never plan. interesting note don't try to plan what industries have to be successful because this usually face is national champions are national losers not national champions what we did three tracks we liberalize but we did not try to defend she so that equal conditions so that you can get to the market. the interpersonal market acting and the competition. shaping the structure so we are exporting bass at all solves some electronics furniture food stuffs etc very diversified. president medvedev in russia today

likes to talk about innovation the skulk of a project he says that innovation is the key to success do you agree do you think that that economic growth should be based on and the variation and doesn't doesn't the japanese example show that is there then it's questionable but you know i think innovation is the most important thing universal source of growth barbecue is what to do to have regular you know versions and for that you need lots of competition. you need a limited state you need to rule of law so that people would have certain they could confidence trust to invest into research and into investments so you can get innovation basic common if you create the proper. conditions for for that. any solution you can propose to the current euro zone crisis like like is subsidizing poor countries by countries like germany is that the only way out.

certainly not the longer term solution. it's useful to stress that the eurozone problems are in fact problems resulting from bad policies for of certain countries greece was weak because they were they were expanding their fiscal expenditures they became bankruptcy it was not the fault of europe because that's a fault of that policy is in greece in spain in care and there was a too much credit generated by the presence of a private sector also there were boom and bossa did the fact that their fiscal positions were the main conclusion is that you don't know it so it's not at fault but you don't require much better policies from the members being mauled disappeared. there is bomb and polish boss and i think the conclusion would be in the respective countries to create better framework for but the polish vote

accidents this is this is interesting i mean a former soviet country minister trying to teach saudi it to do all the. way to teach the europeans to be disciplined this is going to be all the forces of most discipline in europe during this crisis of the baltics above the bar to see daniel also also. saw this and also x. so there is a lot to keep the west country ok thank you thank you very much for being with us it was fun talking to you just a reminder that my guest in the studio today was less shaken by the sight of each in the form of polish deputy prime minister and that's it for now from all of us here will be back with more first time comment on what's going on in and outside russia until then stay on r.t. and take it thank you thanks to all possible.

very first verses of the bible is that all human beings are created but some of it all came in god's image and it doesn't say just jews or non jews. sixty to seventy percent of what i did as a combat soldier in the occupied territories was to do with the turds doing what we call making our presence so you go out should some bozo they hear a knock on some doors run to the other corner and they don't know how religion the nationalism not just judaism have been a part of the problem they've been part of what leads to. bloodshed a few one. thousand four hundred people in a month and you want to expect that this will have no effect until the feet you have to be either extremely naive or extremely stupid we don't need to hear a religious jew calling another jew and not the way they really know that.

the international monetary fund says both europe and the u.s. are headed for a double dip recession unless they get their act together on debt and radically increase growth according to the i.m.f. countries around the world need to revamp their economic policies or face a lost decade the report came as italy was downgraded by standard and poor's causing more concern over the euro zone's economic outlook. ahead of the palestinian push for full statehood at the u.n. israeli forces prepare for possible unrest but as our team finds out the trouble is home grown up some of them anyway some israeli settlers are protesting in the west bank near palestinian homes this as washington repeats its threat to veto any move to recognize palestine israeli forces are also reinforcing borders and reportedly label land mines in some places. and speaking at the u.n. president obama backs libya's.