that's already been made despite this questions remain whether nato air campaign complied with u.n. mandate last friday in a unanimous resolution of the un recognized the national transitional council as the country's official representatives. interview show spotlight algren off sits down with poland's former deputy prime minister stay with us for that. however again i welcome. today my guest is. in polish recent history the country had a little time to convert. the colony into a complex market that. there had been no precedents and the country needed a qualified and charismatic economist to do the job and here. came up

with the idea of shop. many years later brought him the title of the best reformer in the european union his former polish deputy prime minister. when communist regimes in eastern europe were close to collapse it was clear their restricted economies wouldn't stand a chance against the free market the need for reform was clear in poland one of the leading economists. for the package of shock measures later known as the plan it was designed to allow the tradition of a state controlled economy to a market oriented mechanism for the short term second finds was immense over a million people lost their jobs but very quickly there were people arrive at companies which provided jobs for one point five million people it became the basis of shock therapy plans in other communist economies including russia recently the

european enterprise institute described. as the best reformer in the european union . thank you thank you very much for coming well first of all today you are. top finance on the list of the. most popular polish politicians but what about the public opinion back there in the ninety's were you as popular as you had today initially yes because there are expectations and most people wanted to change the system to have low inflation but of course with the passage of time and the turnout they are not on the benefits but also som costs my popularity has fallen he was fluctuating but now more and more people realize that it was worse transforming poland started rising political movement and so so what you just said. makes me

think that the most difficult thing about reforms in poland maybe also in russia at that time was changing the mentality of the people well what was changing changing their expectations there or not i think you have to change the conditions under which people operate and work and you have to do it in a radical way and then people are just many people are just they just they have behavior they started to arc in a new way and some of them adjust their views so i didn't want to try to change mentality because i was not a creature i wanted to change the conditions to improve the conditions for good work for an apprenticeship. for research etc well for for us for journalists i'm an expert in poland and i have i never written actually a lot about problem but for us there that time was fun i mean great fun i mean

poland salad out an arse less well and sour all those crack off and all all those things and so it was i mean real fun real i mean life but they had the blood pumping in so i want to put you know i bet you know the conditions you know what was behind behind these pictures yet so what were the conditions in poland was it was in any any similar to what we had in russia during the period when there was garbage on the screen but nothing nothing in the food stories. we have endured for years to extraordinary periods in poland's recent history the first one ninety eight made to work and there was a first solidarity movement which was unprecedented and the communist or socialist because this was the independent organisation. and now as i became a hero about it was surprised by the introduction of martial law in december eighty one and then you have nine rather gloomy years. and there was not much right to the

end of the to know that it appeared and then there was a compromise of negotiations that round they bring in poland the creation of the new government with the first non-coms prime minister there was most of these and i was asked to take the responsibility for the economic reforms and coming to your question there are certainly those in a tonight and russia. that we have very very difficult dramatic economic conditions in a very very high inflation hyperinflation production also falling. in poland to be have we have very had in four and. reserves how the exchange was very very low so it was a cut us off but it was also a great opportunity to study and reform the country. well it's an interesting thing listen when you went to school and when i went to school the only russia but it

was it was the same period of time it was becoming a communist rule both in poli russia so the only type of economy we studied was marxist economy and marxist leninist economy so who were you teachers how did you get an opportunity to learn and down the transition to learn about how what so an economist can do with a plan to save it economy to change it who taught you first of all i was not very good at economic political economy or socialism i was always proud of the background. that i was interested in other subjects like history the laws of our thoughts and mathematics thirty gulfs certain exact science this offside is being able to count years to reason to calculate that very very my best advisors were physicists or mathematician i responded to forms i never recruited politician

columnists who were educated on the source of the problem is and third pollard was a bit more open. is german of the promise of a union so he could travel and they also offered to the possibility to start the united states all you did. education which is called master of public administration businesses from new york university that said that certain home when you were when you were pretty i was the younger sister was called central school of planning and so this is warsaw and i was was offered this opportunity to say i spent almost two years in new york. did you have an opportunity to complete your reforms well all that there was in the visit by the by the and back to rubbish plan was it all done was a no i have no drive my friend because i have three years initially and they went

with the team so we have advanced basic reforms like liberalizing the economist and started to this basic institutions stock exchange starting privatization so i was in a better situation pull a political point of view but of course even three years is not enough so i have the second stage between two of the ninth circuit and two thousand and i have i was also a deputy prime minister and we have accelerated some other reforms well in transition from state to market economy russia to have to go through some very painful reforms spotlight see the need to me there has more in that. words like inflation or unemployment were very distant to reality for the so that people low prices and decent wages were guaranteed by the state starting the nineteen eighties when the world was hit by an oil crisis it was harder and harder to keep things the way they

were mikhail gorbachev came up with very strong but the reforms he introduced did not bring relief after the fall of the soviet union the johnson government came up with the so-called shock therapy the also of the riddick of reforms he grew gaidar remains a controversial figure for russians in one thousand nine to two prices were freed and the savings of millions of people devalued overnight industries had to adapt to new market economy rooms the lack of state support led to massive job losses millions would lift into poverty. guider supporters say there was simply no oh turn it in to this type of critical change to safety quickly from total disaster in the country from civil war ordinary people had to learn to survive in the new economic reality and some are still unable to be philosophical about the reforms to them it

was just two worst time in their lives. you might gorbachev in ninety ninety one first just i was the first falling politician who came with the official visit to russia just after this fate call after the coup. he said that i i you talked to him what was his opinion on the reforms that you were carrying out in poland and he was very polite. also but he was crazy about the i don't know i can't somehow that certainly he said he was very much interested in the policy experience he invited me to come later but when i came for the second time it was the same night of our doors or the change in russia i talked to i spoke to two year old son and two you go gaidar interesting event we've discussed what i was russia and entering to listen is it true that yeltsin when you

met him in ninety one was ready to offer you any job any salary if you only stayed in russia but you but you but you chose to to go to poland is that true i thought this was just supposed very polite way of expressing his appreciation so little respect he said but i never considered this to be more than just a very kind. kind words that certainly we have. imported an interesting conversation. he was at the time in the citizen and person. and he asked me what is going to be in phase. and i bought in russia wants to liberalize i remember i told them hired then for cost that not theirs was the polish experience though. and says unless. the form of polish deputy prime minister spotlight will be back shortly we'll continue this interview off to be sure great

sound don't go away stay with us. this was a city. of about one hundred ninety thousand people and we had eighty thousand people working for general motors. or a job that depended on general motors. general motors is if it's not relation to you it might be your neighbor or somebody you knew so it's kind of a family run business you know myself i'm third generation my father was working there and you have a lot of two three and four generation families that are there first let's understand that. this is if a man doesn't want. it he should not. it is gong to want a man to work with. i

think for a long time this notion in america that bigger was better was simply an undisputed fact in the twenty first century smarter it's going to be better general motors simply became too large for their own good and so many brands that they couldn't even keep up with they just basically became a dinosaur. well due to the future of the weapons grade plutonium is turned into a vital new resource nuclear waste becomes a fuel friendly to the environment and energy outposts in light of the ends of the earth russian scientists lead the way in making these innovations a reality in a future of free from fears of nuclear apocalypse the peaceful revolution to tonic

energy on technology update we've got the future covered. very first verses of the bible to all human beings are created but sentimental came in god's image and it doesn't say just jews or knowledge is. sixty to seventy percent of what i did as a common soldier by territory. doing what we call making our presence felt to go out should some so they hear a knock on some doors run to the other corner and they don't know the house religion and nationalism not just judaism have been a part of the problem they've been part of what leads to. bloodshed if you want to bomb guys are and kill. a thousand four hundred people in a month and you want to expect that this will have no effect on their feet you have to be either extremely naive or extremely stupid we don't need to hear a sure religious jew calling another joe and not an out of the way they really

didn't. mind. soon which brightened a few nibbles soon from phones to impressions. means for instance on t.v. dot com. welcome back to spotlight i'm al green of and just a reminder my guest in the studio today is lush about iran which the former polish deputy prime minister the man who reformed poland in the late one nine hundred

eighty s. and the ninety's as a matter of fact russian poland's annual growth rate is not in nine hundred eighty nine two thousand was i mean the highest in all post communist economies on the contrary in guiders russia you said you followed guidance reforms and you met a guy there and yeltsin gorbachev geiger's reforms led led russia to the biggest economic slump since world war two so what was the reason the the difference in the initial conditions of the reforms or the methods or maybe something else but i think it's a mistake to blame gave us reforms for this recession because a recession was due to documentation of problems under communism distorted economy a man does standard and mean amended people have been have to feel nostalgia for these all ties about this old place could not have been maintained it was

a collapsing economy first second as they are the knowledge that you have in poland possibilities to introduce more reforms than you do russia initially so is having to do small treatment. economists with problems like sick patients so you need a treatment if you introduce less treatment you have less effects of certain diseases or problems were delayed accumulation why why did you have this possibility which go there because the country is bigger wide were it was there are . huge problems for either. there was even more you have still you have constitutional problems the constitution conflict. the problem of the negotiating holding borders saw i think this was the star is the musky i'm not blaming it on the guy and i understand that but what i see where when i was when i was expecting here in the studio i read about your reforms in there realized that

gaidar copied a lot from what you did but not everything worked as smoothly as with as in poland does i mean events are lessons specific of polish and russian if you have hyperinflation. you have to act it's very dangerous will be karma and for the people so you have to act very decisively and quickly this is the safest strategy so we have a good area and without much of the i think there was for political reasons programs and all day in russia does one difference we have liberalized the common much more massively there was less less liberalization if you liberalise less you have less competition and you have oligarchs. less competition we have bluegrass much more and you don't have this problems which is far too. politically connected all the gox is it true that poles in general are more business minded than russia and i don't think that they have always been more ready to start making money now

no i don't think so that culture matters on march first of all conditions in every society you have enough and triple an area of people so far the differences in conditions for then if you have more regulations less freedom less opportunity you don't use the potential to the same extent as in countries which have introduced more freedom this is the basic difference you know what some people say they say that they say that you are which introduce shock turkey and gaidar turned it into shock without terribly knowing about it is more than just. sounds good that does not reflect the truth the truth is ok. listen you are here now does that in i mean russia and moscow does that mean the russian policymakers the russian politicians are still they still need your advice they still interested in your experience in poland well this is not my advice personally because i say said

sudden universal lessons if you have too much state as an owner that's bad both for the economy and for politics so you have to privatized the truth means you did politicize the economy if. and it's ten percent a year like in russia it's too high so the central bank has to lower interest and that's possible we had an event i became the central banker in the year two thousand and one inflation or sébastien percent back in five years' time we brought it down to two percent so it's possible that there are universal lessons and i don't think it is very difficult to learn about what what's absolutely crucial is political will to draw to use these universal lessons do you think that the main problem with russia is that the economy in russia is too politicized we should be politicized certainly there are problems there usually because of excessive politicization in various ways russia has actually been

a very political country you know your. theory oh it's yeah it seems to me that when i read your history that you're on the way at the rate of one thousand century early twentieth century to become democratic capitalistic country you had something an accident happened and well it didn't work. as an artist but now. ok now there is there is a good crowd about about what you did with your own country or again this parliament proved to be the only even country where the current world economic crisis didn't cause an economic slump is it true and what was this polish recipe for success if it's true that we have avoided recession meaning negative growth but we had not avoided a slowdown really the rate of growth two thousand and eight was five percent decrease fallen to one point seven but not negative still positive wife. so

combination of sector several factors first we have avoided the credit bomb if you have a credit bull then you will usually have a dust this was the case in the baltics ins in spain in russia too there was excessive growth of credit in russia so we had avoided this apps because the central banking problem was pretty conservative and we use sound regulation tools second. we are russia for example depends in exports extent on commodities oil and gas and they and their prices are rising and falling. fortunately we don't have so much natural resources in poland so our economy is much more diversified this is the second i think important reason the third one is that policy khana when it comes when you compare polish economy policy can i would the baltics even hungary policy economy is much larger so we depend much stress on

foreign shocks rachael's you know. fortunately you don't have a lot of natural resources i once talked to the prime minister of albania and i was amazed when i knew they had a lot of oil you have a lot of oil in the area been yeah and i asked him how come there is so so much oil in use for and he said you know. when god gave some countries lots of oil they unfortunately didn't give them enough grains and he looked. at how terrorists are. patient here they are victim to show as a matter of fact some people say that there are predictions that for example saudi oil minister riyadh money said that that that given the political situation well what price can go to two two to three hundred dollars pretty soon wouldn't be very bad for a person who was produced the shock to importing country was not very good the

longer around. the world this will strengthen scent of still be less dependent on oil so in the longer run it will do not be very good for exporting countries. so for russia this such such prices could be even damaging so they would weaken incentives to reform what industries are growing today contemporary poland what are the main industries stream and diversified and you could never plan. absolutely no don't try to plan what industries have to be successful because this usually favors these national champions are national losers not national chantal's what we do three traits we liberalize but we did not try to defend she so that equal conditions so that you can get a van the market. are acting on the competition. shaping the structure so we are exporting bass at all so all sun electronics

furniture foodstuffs etc are very diversified. president medvedev in russia today likes to talk about innovation the skulk of a project he says that innovation is the key to success do you agree do you think that that economic growth should be based on and the vision and doesn't doesn't the japanese example show that is there then it's questionable. oh i think innovation is the most important thing the universal source of growth barbecue is what to do to have regular innovations and for that you need lots of competition. you need a limited state you need to rule of law so that people would have certain could confidence trust to invest into research and into investments so you can get innovation basic common if you create the proper. conditions for for that.

any solution you can propose to the current euro zone crisis like like is subsidizing poor countries by countries like germany is it the only way out. certain and not a longer term solution. it's useful to stress that the eurozone problems are in fact problems resulting from that policies for of certain countries greece because they where they were expanding their fiscal expenditures until they became bankruptcy it is not the fault of europe but because that's the fault of that policies in greece in spain in care and there was a. too much credit generated by the parents across a private sector also they were boom and bust and that affected their fiscal positions with their main conclusion is that europe in itself is not at fault but euro requires much better policies from the members meaning more discipline. less

boom and therefore less boss and i think the conclusion would be in the respective countries to create better framework for better policies that vote accidents. this is this is interesting i mean a former soviet country minister trying to teach us all the it to get on the. bus all showing to teach the europeans to be disciplined this is going to be all the queries of most disappeared in europe during this crisis the baltics above the baltic sea diving are also also. the guardian soldiers and also ex so there's a lot to keep cheating the west country ok thank you thank you very much for being with us it was fun talking to you just to remind you that my guest in the studio today was less shaken by a set of each of the form of polish deputy prime minister and that's it for now from all this he will be back with more first on comments on what's going on in and outside russia until then stay on our team and take your thank you thanks to

president. culture is that so much different each musician is apparently trying to tell a different turkey in the whole biggio political order in the middle east and the arab world is ankara making a bid to play the role of the regional hegemon on the back of. the official ante up location to on the phone only pulled touch from the shops to. watch on t.v. lights on the go. video on demand all t's mine field goals and feeds now with the palm of your. question on the dot com. the international

monetary fund says in both europe and the us are headed for a double dip recession unless they get their acts together on debt and radically increase growth according to the i.m.f. countries around the world need to revamp their good economic policies or face a lost decade for the report to him as italy was downgraded by standard and poor's causing more concern over the euro zone's economic outlook. ahead of the palestinian push for full statehood at the u.n. israeli forces prepare for possible unrest because our team finds out some of the trouble is homegrown some israeli settlers are protesting in the west bank near palestinian homes this as washington repeats its threat to veto any move to recognize palestine israel forces are also read forcing the borders and reportedly laying landmines in some places. and speaking at the u.n. president obama by.