back into recession. up next battle of l. and he's crossed all gas to explore the role turkey may play in the arab world following the revolutionary wave that swept the region our debate show is coming your way here on our team. hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle turkey and the evolving geopolitical order in the middle east and the arab world is ankara making a bid to play the role of the regional head to mine on the back of the arab spring and at the expense of western powers but we should merely following a foreign policy based on national interests. to cross talk turkey external ambitions i'm joined by john feffer in washington he

is co-director of foreign policy in focus at the institute for policy studies also in washington we have joseph he is an adjunct professor at the american university school of international service and in london we cross to rachel xabi she is a journalist and author of not the enemy israel's jews from arab lands all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first i guess it's an understatement saying turkey is a country on the move indeed peter turkey has squandered no time taking in some gauge in strategy with the arab world to a new level last week prime minister wretched erdogan on what observers have dubbed the arab spring tour visiting tunisia egypt and libya and aiming to augment the country's clout in the region facing political change. addressing crowds of libyans in tripoli and extending offers of help erdogan showed that he was acutely aware of the importance of his timing. is ending totalitarian

regimes and disappearing experts say are the ones upswing in diplomacy reflects turkey's growing inhibition to become a leading political force in the region itself assurance driven by here is of having the unique ability to negotiate with all sides of conflicts in the middle east as well as conduct successful trade relations with its neighbors any government that engages like this has a selfish purpose a sense of mission that this area is in turmoil and that since we are in this area we are much more qualified to intervene turkey has in mind the role of an important regional power and with the recent upheaval in the arab world that sense of mission has become aggrandized and arguably more aggressive on the same visit to tripoli are to one vehemently condemned government's crackdown on dissent in syria up until recently turkey's ally and earlier in cairo he called to uphold the palestinian bid for statehood rallying for the palestinians cause hasn't fact become one of the pillars of soft power strategies much to the detriment of ankara's relations with

televisa throwing the ball in israel scored early on said some countries in the region cannot read the changes that are happening on top of which israel. experts say that turkey is a player to reckon with if that's the case how enduring exactly will its influence in the emerging regional or prove will give its competitors a run for their money or overplayed its hand at the expense of its western partnerships back to you peter thank you very much ok rachael finger to you first in london are we seeing a new paradigm we're seeing the washington tel aviv actually speaking replaced by ankara and cairo and maybe other capitals in the arab world what i'm getting at are we seeing a major power change in the region it's starting to look that way i mean turkey has seemed to be able to read the changes in the middle east. brought about by the

risings it's been able to read them very well and it's been able to read them in a manner that other nations other players in the region have not been able to do so precisely at the time when the western when israel can no longer rely on compliant repressive regimes in the middle east like egypt like syria to basically underwrite israeli foreign policy in the region precisely at that time. steps in on the stage the turkish prime minister. goes on this middle east and tour where he is greeted like a rock star billboards massive billboards of him of his picture lining the arab streets. there are crowds cheering his welcome in cairo so he seems to have understood the situation and played it very well joseph i'm going to you in washington i'd like to ask the same question in a slightly different way is are countries like turkey and egypt the right side of

history as opposed to the western powers that constantly keep stumbling over themselves in trying to understand the people that have been going on most of this year in the arab world. first of all let me say that the capital of israeli generals and not all of it was all good as well i think that's a different topic for a different program but go ahead and of last about the it was mentioned that it is between capitals and then it was mentioned tel aviv televisa nicely about digital isn't any of the capital but let me come back to your question right. well if it's the right or wrong side of history time will say i mean you know you stories being written now and later on we should analyze the retrospect what really has been easterly a whole world was just passing or whatever but look. talking about democracy in the middle east is not something that should have any problem with israel on the contrary i mean as you know for many years israeli leaders and by the way also prime minister netanyahu made the point that there could be and there should be

peace only when that is the real democracy and out of the world so in that sense that is no problem for us and i would very much welcome democratic changes in all the out of countries not just in there while we're told that all of the of the counter of this situation for example syria would be much more optimistic about the possibility say off in agreement between israel and syria which is democratic rather day and there futility of all the efforts that have taken place for so many years between us in the ass jeans i mean hafez and then bashar assad so altogether i don't think that this is a question that can be already decided what is exactly the type of peace truly well it's really you know it's kind of interesting dedicated but it's very interesting as the people on the ground seem to understand the countries in the world and leaders in the world that are on the right side of history if i go to john in washington what do you think about that because you know we have on one hand you know our turkey is a very interesting example i know it's been said in the past it's a very good example of islam and democracy

a country that has its own ambitions that will no longer be just a surrogate of the west it's been very clear and of course that the recent spat with israel i mean when i'm getting out is that turkey is really standing up in the region is listening and very much well. i mean. you stance or greater stance. absolutely and turkey is not just kind of responding to what's going on in the middle east it's inspiring what's going on in the middle east as you point out the a.k.p. party in turkey the ruling party in turkey has successfully kind of moved turkey away from what was a military dictatorship and has proved that you can have a majority islam country that embraces democracy and that stablish is a kind of model of a secular state in a religious society i think that is a very potent example for the rest of the middle east and you know this is something that the people on the ground in the middle east understand it's something that i think increasingly even the neighbors of turkey understand and

it's something even the united states is understanding and remember the united states is planning to work with turkey for a post assad syria according to the latest news from the washington post new york times so it's not like the washington it's not like washington is opposed to in many cases washington is working hand in hand with to respond to what's going on in the region but if i could keep going on i would rachel that it's the same time anchors that's not going to follow washington's lead like it did during the cold war and for many years since the end of the cold war we've seen a dramatic change in turkey's political fortunes geo politically and there are almost all net positive. it's not going to follow america's lead no but i think turkey does have the capacity and it almost it's written into its geographical d.n.a. to be able to straddle both sides you know it has one foot in europe wanted it nature it's able to face both sides and it has proven in the past that it's able to

do that in the way that it's tried to broker situations in the middle east but certainly it has broken with the u.s. in stance with israel of late and there having server diplomatic ties with israel it really changed tack after israel's gaza assault of late two thousand and eight early two thousand and nine after which over a thousand palestinians were killed most of them turned out to be noncombatants. that was when. prime minister. took to the national stage publicly shamed the israeli president shimon peres at the world economic forum in davos where he said to him you know how to kill people before storming off stage that was cemented last year after a garza bound aid flotilla was stormed by israeli military commanders and nine turkish civilians were killed. since then despite you know great attempts and

some u.s. pressure there has not been a situation brought about where israel has apologized for those deaths as a result which turkey so evidence ties which is a huge loss for israel and i think our biggest plea all right joseph i know you want a job you go right ahead. yelena well first of all i would take issue with some of the facts that rachel mentioned but i would remind us all and this is a very important point that we need to understand the a.t.p. came to power in two thousand and three five not year old and or two thousand and two and they already den started a very gradual but certain policy of taking turkey away from the close relationship with the us and also with israel and for example we all remember that they refused to support american efforts in iraq i love getting into the merits of it whether they were right or not i'm just putting it in a real property story context however one should remember that israeli government

tried to work with the turkish government under order on and i would remind us all that the previous israeli prime minister was in a room with her the one when there was a telephone conversation with president bashar assad of syria and the two parties were not that far away from moving along dramatically between israel and syria with turkish mediation then of course the war in gaza was a problem and i would like now to get into all these distorted descriptions of rachel about what happened there but the point really is the point really is that the turkish government s.b.a. of the already for fuel use in a way that in retrospect one can say was kind of creating the groundwork or laying the groundwork for what is the criticism now let me go to john as we go to john before the break we for you john do you think the israelis are gambling too much with their relationship with turkey by not being more flexible. well i am going to be clear is that this is not just israel this is netanyahu this is the netanyahu

government good point joseph is right that israel in turkey had a very strong military relationship economic relationship but the netanyahu government has gone way off the right hand side of the political spectrum it's been absolutely i'm content to jump let's jump in here we go short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on turkey's foreign policy stay with r.t. . this is a city. of about one hundred ninety thousand people and we had eighty thousand people working for general. or depended on general motors.

general motors if you relations you might be your neighbor or somebody you knew so it's kind of a family run business you know myself i'm third generation my father was working there and you have a lot of two three and four generation families are there first let's understand that. this is a man doesn't want. it is gong. to work. i think for a long time this notion in america that bigger was better was simply an undisputed fact in the twenty first century smarter better general motors simply became too large for their own good and so many brands that they couldn't even keep up with. became a. welcome

back to. remind you we're talking about turkeys changing foreign policy. ok i've got to go back to john in washington john one of the interesting things about turkey is pointed out here is that turkey can deal with hamas hezbollah the taliban while keeping ties with israel the lebanese and afghan governments how far

can they go in all those directions without really money up the waters and really alienating all partners at one point on it's an amazing foreign policy that turkey has to be able to deal with so many different kinds of partners. you're right i mean the a.k.p. came out with a foreign policy which basically called zero problems with neighbors and this was in stark contrast with the almost gerritsen like foreign policy of its predecessors and it started to repair relations with greece with armenia cyprus all across the region now that is remarkable from an economic point of view because of course trade relations have followed the diplomatic warming it's definitely. accrued benefits to turkey on the diplomatic side but there are challenges i mean it's very difficult for instance for turkey to have an agreement with the united states for anti-ballistic missile. base or a drone base which is specifically designed to go up against iran while it

maintains a very strong relationship with tehran especially an economic relationship so there are definitely going to be stresses here but as rachel said you know turkey believes that it has a foot on both sides it's it's trying to get into the new but it is also said look we don't get into the e.u. we can handle that it's a nato member but it's gone up against the united states on a number of issues so it's trying to straddle both both camps and many camps at the same time it will definitely had some challenges but every country has challenges when it tries to balance those relations it's just that we don't expect a middle power like turkey to be able to do that we only expect that from a superpower and i think turkey has very grand ambitions as a middle power in that regard. i think it's very interesting and if we can just kind of push out the the envelope right here at what point does cherokee have to kind of decide because we see the nato countries invading arab lands killing

muslims and it to what point does the public opinion i think have to really point out here is that turkey is a democracy it has its own challenges but the government there is popular it is legitimate and it has to listen to people and the bombing and killing of muslims is something that just doesn't go and go down with the electorate there. i'm not sure if turkey wall have to decide or at what point it will have to make that decision but it does seem as though thus far it has been able to straddle both worlds i mean we've saw just a few days ago turkey committed to. anti missile technology being introduced into southern nato southern turkey that. as a nato country as nato is second largest military country actually so we have seen that even while it has changed the dynamics in the middle east while it's changed its relationship to israel while it has first been very critical of the

nato intervention in libya it does take a very very different stance quite often but at the same time it does seem able to accommodate and honor its commitments to nato if i go to jersey we recently had the prime minister the turkish foreign minister in cairo news it was mentioned earlier the program he was greeted as a rock star do you see a new axis being developed in the in the in the region now or where it's like western powers in israel is one of their surrogates in the region where you can start seeing something very very different here and that the united states and israel and other western powers are going to have to start compromising more in sort of dictating terms in the region. well i hate to break up the idea picture that is being portrayed or about the success of turkish foreign policy . they are almost on the verge of war we cyprus these days as they threaten cyprus and they threaten greece there are only very very serious collision course with

iran over the question of syria but coming back to the point about egypt you have to remember that while the plan original plan of the visit was to have a big speech by prime minister and one a day to his square they gyptian government refused to allow him to do so because they didn't like him to inflame. people in egypt and got in egypt was very enthusiastic about there are millions upon millions of people in cairo so i don't know whether we can say it's a majority addition people or not definitely is popular among certain circles there not by the way among some of the muslim quarters or parties in egypt but look egypt and turkey cannot and will not fall in a strategic alliance for too long of a time for two simple reasons because so out in modern history of the middle east the arab countries have always rejected any attempt by unknown out of power whether it was iran of the shah which is she always or it will be now turkey which is sunni

but not out up to a generalized out of politics i can see objections coming to this from countries like saudi arabia also by the way from egypt and other countries to look what may seem today to be the tide to be the wave upon which the turks are writing i may seem to be totally different in a short period of time depends on many variables amount then also what will really happen in syria how it will be interpreted by the iranians and their allies in the middle east so look all this is very very complicated and one thing that we know about the middle east is that the politics of black and white don't work there anymore even the israeli current doesn't work anymore in the says it used to be in the past jus. one little example you may remember get fuel weeks ago maybe six weeks ago or so the syrian regime of bashar assad try to divert attention from the top and sincerely out towards a board that was the israel it to eat. opposition in syria itself where not even on one occasion the israeli flag was barely districts did and i do

a also with regard to egypt there are forces in egypt that cooling down the situation so all to get that i would say look at the army's they greatly there is no question about it he's very popular and he's doing well for the scantily but he may seem a try to do too much in short period of time and that could be leading to his downfall later on in terms of foreign policy ok john if i can ask you one of the things go ahead rachel one of things i think is very interesting is that you know in light of what joseph had to say is i don't think that you know we we've always had just black and white from a western point of view looking at the arab and muslim world is very black and white and i think we've been very much surprised over the last few months and i think that's an understatement one thing i think there is a lot of unity not to say tearing differences is the end of neo colonialism in the region by the west and i think that's one commonality that the entire region can embrace irrespective of your religious sect go ahead. i think i think israel misjudge is this the potential for turkey egypt alliance at its

own peril and to attempt to be that dismissive about it and say oh they're not going to accept an arab or they're not going to accept a sunni or whatever division you choose to impose on the fact of the matter is that turkey and egypt are already talking about regional alliance and it makes sense egypt is very keen to punch its regional weight as the largest arab country in the arab world. status that was constantly diminished and downplayed and compromised by the former president hosni mubarak. turkey has candidly understood this kind of regional change and is keen to jump aboard and i also think it's an extraordinary miscalculation to keep saying that the israeli card is irrelevant clearly the palestinian cause is deeply significant across the middle east and until that

becomes a focus for israel as well i think israel is running into very dangerous ground john what do you think about that i mean the relevance here because you know let's be fair here ok i mean this is an important issue among arabs and muslims all around the world i think we all agree with that but then again let's be proud to call can be used as a domestic political card at home for elections for popularity. make sure we employ mentor high prices or you know things like that you can say we can pull up the palestinian card i mean there is an element of that as well was unfair. there certainly is and it has played to a certain extent in turkey itself but i think you know the cape a the ruling party has been popular for id of other reasons namely anomic success as well as foreign policy victories i think you know it's important to recognize that turkey is exerting a great deal of soft power in the region that will last long beyond the a.k.p. in the fortunes of air to one we're talking about economic investments we're

talking about the schools i mean one visit that you didn't mention that aired over the summer was to somalia this is a place where no foreign leader was willing to go because it was so dangerous and he went there and it's been followed by turkish humanitarian aid and that opened the flood gates for other humanitarian aid to go in and this is boosted turkish profile in the horn of africa tremendously this kind of soft power that turkey is wielding is far more important in many ways and than the military power that it is unfortunately using and other other parts of the region whether we're talking northern iraq or threatened and cyprus for instance just what do you you know it's very interesting soft power here played mentioned and i think it's very very important it seems like turkey has done a really good job at mastering it is how is israel going to have to react to this because again we started out the program with democratization is israel feeling more comfortable in a region that is becoming more democratic because there are islamic elements that

are involved in these processes that in egypt also we have in turkey is this something that israel has to learn to adjust because for them for decades it just relied upon dictators and american help i mean doesn't have a lot more openness now needs to be a lot more finesse now instead of just relying on force. at least we'll get a spade we never like don't think take those who really like those those who make peace with the democrats that's not be sure to want to make peace with as we should welcome them and the question is about democracy to me that you say made. before i will repeat it our obviously we are in support of democracy all over the middle east because we have a democratic nation we would like to see all other nations being democratic and as i said before for example syria i believe and i have a by the way was a member of the israeli delegation for peace talks with syria in the past i believe that if we would then have a democratic government in syria it will be much more conducive to peace between our two countries than the not so that's just one example but when you talk about

democracy what do you mean really i mean if you take for example a country like the kingdom of jordan is it a democratic situation there where the palestinian majority of seventy percent is basically downtrodden or surprised by the answer my dynasty i'm not saying that it to change all i'm saying is when we talk about democracy in the middle east let's face the realities what really are we expected to see and what we mean by that it's not enough to use the word democracy but what really the kind of democracy are about but are no no no just a line a very minute we have run out of time thank you very much to my guest today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember rostov brings. you.

russia urges the palestinian bid for statehood to be given floor time at the un security council as washington threatens to use its veto power against a unilateral move. the u.s. is accused of encouraging the arab spring to achieve its own interest even though it sacrifies the position of its closest ally israel leaving an isolated. and international team of inspectors sees progress in talks with greece while the i.m.f. warns the global economy is in a perilous state. they want unity coming to life from moscow marina joshua came to the program while palestinians are taking to the streets of the west bank.