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and. lo and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle turkey and the evolving geopolitical order in the middle east and arab world is ankara making a bid to play the role of the regional hegemon on the back of the arab spring and at the expense of western powers or is it merely following

a foreign policy based on national interests. they can start. to cross talk turkey external ambitions i'm joined by john feffer in washington is co-director of foreign policy in focus at the institute for policy studies also in washington we have joseph he is an adjunct professor at the american university school of international service and in london across the racial xabi she is a journalist and author of not the enemy israel's jews from arab lands all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first i guess it's an understatement saying turkey is a country on the move and didn't hear turkey has squandered no time taking information strategy with the arab world to a new level last week prime minister retch a play on how what observers have dubbed the arab spring tour visiting tunisia egypt and libya and to augment the country's clout in the region facing political

change addressing crowds of libyans in tripoli and extending offers of help or don't want to show that he was acutely aware of the importance of his timing. told percy is ending totalitarian regimes disappearing. experts say or do once upswing in diplomacy reflects turkey's growing invitation to become a leading political force in the region itself assurance driven by years of having the unique ability to negotiate with all sides of conflicts in the middle east as well as conduct successful trade relations with its neighbors any government that engages like this has a selfish purpose a sense of mission in syria is in turmoil and that since we are in this area we are much more qualified to intervene turkey has in mind the role of an important regional power and with the recent upheaval in the arab world that sense of mission has become aggrandized an arguably more aggressive on the scene visit to tripoli

early one vehemently condemned government's crackdown on dissent in syria up until recently turkey's ally and earlier in cairo he called to uphold the palestinian bid for statehood rallying for the palestinians cause has in fact become one of the pillars of murder on soft power strategies much to the detriment of ankara's relations with television throwing the ball in israel's court or one said some countries in the region cannot read the changes that are happening on top of which israel experts say that turkey is a player to reckon with if that's the case how enduring exactly will its employees in the emerging regional or approve well give its competitors a run for their money or overplayed its hand of expense of its western partnerships back to you peter thank you very much ok rachel i know to you first in london are we seeing a new paradigm we see in the washington re i tell access being replaced by ankara and cairo and maybe other capitals in the arab world what i'm getting at are we

seeing a major power change in the region. it's starting to look that way i mean turkey has seemed to be able to read the changes in the middle east. brought about by the ira but risings it's been able to read them very well and it's been able to read them in a manner that other nations other players in the region have not been able to do so precisely at the time when the western when israel can no longer rely on compliant repressive regimes in the middle east like egypt like syria to basically underwrites israeli foreign policy in the region precisely at that time no one steps in on the stage the turkish prime minister. he goes on this middle east and for where he is greeted like a rock star there are billboards massive billboards of his picture lining arab

streets. there are crowds cheering his welcome in cairo so he seems to have understood the situation and played it very well just if you go to you in washington i'd like to ask the same question but in a slightly different way is our countries like turkey and egypt on the right side of history as opposed to the western powers that constantly keep stumbling over themselves in trying to understand the other people and it's been going on most of this year in the arab world. but first of all let me say that the capital of israel in jerusalem local of it was all good as well i think that's a different topic for a different program but go ahead and the last guy i think was mentioned that it is between capitals america's mission tel aviv to tel aviv is a nice sleepy but it was and i mean the capital let me come back to your question right. well if it's right or wrong side of history to i will say i mean you know you stories being written now and later on we should allies in retrospect what really has been easterly a whole world was just passing wince or whatever but look. talking about democracy

in the middle east is not something that should have any problem with israel on the contrary i mean as you know for many years israeli leaders and by the way also prime minister netanyahu made the point that there could be and there should be peace only when there is a real democracy in the arab world so in that sense there is no problem for us and i would very much welcome democratic changes in all the other countries not just in one or two little of the counter of the serious situation for example syria i would be much more optimistic another possibility self an agreement between israel and syria which is going to crappy another day and there futility of all the efforts that have taken place for so many years between us and they are genes i mean half is and then they bashar said so altogether i don't think that this is a question that can be already decided what is exactly the type of peace truly well it's really you know it's kind of interesting that would say this but it's very

interesting is the people on the ground seem to understand become trees in the world in leaders in the world that are on the right side of history but i go to john in washington what do you think about that because you know we have on one hand you know our turkey is a very interesting example i know it's been said in the past that it's a very good example of islamic democracy a country that has its own ambitions that will no longer be just a surrogate of the west it's been very clear and of course the recent spat with israel i mean what i'm getting at is that turkey is really standing up in the region is listening and very. welcoming the cherokees new stance or greater stance . absolutely and turkey is not just kind of responding to what's going on in the middle east it's inspiring what's going on in the middle east as you point out the a.k.p. party in turkey the ruling party in turkey has successfully kind of moved turkey away from what was a military dictatorship and has proved that you can have a majority islam country that embraces democracy and that stablish is

a kind of model of a secular state and a religious society i think that is a very potent example for the rest of the middle east and you know this is something that the people on the ground in the middle east understand it's something that i think increasingly even the neighbors of turkey understand and it's something even the united states is understanding and remember the united states is planning to work with therapy for a post assad syria according to the latest news from the washington post new york times so it's not like the russia it's not like washington is opposed to in many cases washington is working hand in hand with korea to respond to what's going on in the region but if i could keep going on that with rachel it's the same time any christmas not going to follow washington's lead like it did during the cold war and for many years since the end of the cold war we've seen a dramatic change in turkey's appeal of political fortunes geo politically and they're almost all net positive. it's not going to follow america's lead no

but i think turkey does have the capacity and it almost it's sort of written into its geographical d.n.a. to be able to straddle growth side so you know it has one foot in europe one for that nature it's able to face both sides and it has proven in the past that it's able to do that in the way that it's tried to broker situations in the middle east but certainly it has broken with the u.s. in its stance with israel of late and having so diplomatic ties with israel it really changed tack after israel's gaza assault of late two thousand and eight early two thousand and nine after which over a thousand palestinians were killed most of them turned out to be noncombatants. that was when. prime minister. took to the national stage publicly shamed the israeli president shimon peres at the world economic forum in davos where he said to him you know how to kill people before storming off stage that was

cemented last year after a garza a flotilla was stormed by israeli military commanders and nine turkish civilians were killed. since then despite you know greater terms and some u.s. pressure there has not been a situation where israel has apologized for those deaths as a result of which turkey has seven its ties which is a huge loss for israel and i think a bigger scale you. know you want a job you go right ahead please do you know it well before i would take issue with from a defector creator mentioned but i would remind us all this is a very important point we need to understand the a.t.p. came to power in can cause in three year old a lot of and cool they already gained. very gradually this policy of taking turkey away from the close relationship with the us and also with

israel and for example we all remember that they refused to support american efforts in iraq i love getting into the merits of pique whether they were right or not i'm just putting it in a real properly story context however one should remember that the israeli government tried to wear it with the parish government under our go on and i would remind us all that the previous israeli prime minister was in a rule we serve the one when there was a telephone conversation with president bashar assad of syria and the two parties were not that far away from moving along dramatically between israel and syria we still use mediation then of course the war in gaza was a problem and i would like now to get into all these distorted description for a chat about what happened there but the point really is the point really is there could be a turkish government as to be a volunteer for fuel use in a way that in retrospect one can say was kind of creating think around will call

laying the groundwork for what is the crisis now let me go to john i'm going to go to john before the break with john do you think the israelis are gambling too much with their relationship with turkey by not being more flexible well i'll go a little clearer is this is not just israel this is netanyahu this is unlike any other group government reform just this right israel and turkey had a very strong military relationship economic relationship but the netanyahu government has gone way off the right hand side of the political spectrum it's been you know absolutely carter the german structure i'm sure we're going to short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on turkey's foreign policy stay with r.t. . if you.

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fact in the twenty first century smarter going to be better general motors simply became too large for their own good and so many brands that they couldn't even keep up with they just basically became a dinosaur. can . welcome back to cross talk and people about to mind you were talking about turkeys changing foreign policy. can. start.

ok and i'm like you go back to john in washington john one of the interesting things about turkey is pointed out here is that turkey can deal with hamas hezbollah the taliban are keeping ties with israel the lebanese and afghan governments how far can you go in all those directions without really money up the waters and really alienating all partners at one point on it's an amazing foreign policy that turkey has to be able to deal with so many different kinds of partners . you're right i mean the a.k.p. came out with a foreign policy which are basically called zero problems with neighbors and this was in stark contrast with the almost kerrison like foreign policy of its predecessors and it started to repair relations with greece with armenia cypress all across the region now that is remarkable from an economic point of view because of course trade relations have followed the diplomatic war i mean it's definitely.

accrued benefits to turkey on the diplomatic side but there are challenges i mean it's very difficult for instance for turkey to have an agreement with the united states for anti-ballistic missile. base or a drone base which is specifically designed to go up against iran while it maintains a very strong relationship with tehran especially an economic relationship so there are definitely going to be stresses here but it is rachel said you know turkey believes that it has a foot on both sides it's it's trying to get into the new but it has also said look we don't get into the e.u. we can handle that it's a nato member but it's gone up against the united states on a number of issues so it's trying to straddle both both camps and many camps at the same time it will definitely had some challenges but every country has challenges when it tries to balance those relations it's just that we don't expect a middle power like turkey to be able to do that we only expect that from

a superpower and i think turkey has very grand ambitions as a middle power in that regard. i think it's very interesting if we can just kind of push out the the envelope right here at what point does turkey have to kind of decide because we see nato countries invading arab lands killy muslims and it to what point does the public opinion i think have to really point out here is that turkey is a democracy it has its own challenges but the government there is popular it is legitimate and it has to listen to people and the bombing and killing of muslims is something that just isn't going down there to go down with the electorate there. i'm not sure if turkey wall have to decide or at what point it will have to make that decision but it does seem as though thus far it has been able to straddle both worlds i mean we've saw just a few days ago so. anti missile technology being introduced into southern nato sudden turkey that. nato country as nato is

second largest military country actually so we have seen that even while it has changed the dynamics in the middle east while it's changed its relationship to israel while it has first been very critical of the nato intervention in libya it does take everything very different stance quite often but at the same time it does seem able to accommodate and honor its commitments to nato if i go to jersey when we recently had the prime minister the turkish prime minister in cairo news it was mentioned earlier the program he was greeted as a rock star do you see a new axis being developed in the in the in the region now or where it starts out western powers in israel is one of their surrogates in the region so you can start seeing something very very different here and that the united states and israel and other western powers are going to have to start compromising more instead of dictating terms in the region. well i hate to break up the.

picture that is being portrayed here about the success of turkish foreign policy. they are almost on the verge of war with cyprus these bases they threaten cyprus and they threaten greece there are only a very very serious collision course reason around over the question of syria but coming back to the point about egypt you have to remember that while the plan original plan of the visit was to have a big speech by prime minister ariel sharon square the gyptian government refused to allow him to do so because they didn't like him to inflame. people in egypt and actually got in egypt was very enthusiastic but there are millions of people in cairo so i don't know whether we can say it's a majority of asian people or not definitely is popular among certain circles there not by the way among some of the muslim quarters or parties in egypt but look egypt and turkey cannot and will not fall on a strategic alliance for too long of

a time for two simple reasons because throughout the modern history of the middle east the arab countries have always rejected any attempt by an all out of power whether it was iran of the shower which is she always or it will be now turkey which is not up to a gemini's our politics i can see objections coming to this from countries like saudi arabia also by the way from egypt and other countries to look what may seem to day to be the tide to be the wave upon which the turks are writing i may seem to be totally different in a short period of time it depends on many variables among them also what will really happen in syria how it will be interpreted by the iranians and their allies in the middle east so look all this is very very complicated and one thing that we know about the middle east is and the politics of black and white don't work there anymore even the israeli card doesn't work anymore into says it used to be in the past or. why little example you may remember get fuel weeks ago maybe in six weeks

and also the syrian regime of bashar assad try to get with attention from the problems in syria the water border with israel it to eat aroused opposition in syria itself were not even on one occasion the israeli flag was burned in the streets there and i do way also with regard to egypt there are forces in egypt calling down the situation so altogether i would say look you still do on is a great leader there's no question about it he's very popular he's doing well for his country but he may seem a try to do too much in short period of time and there could be living to his downfall later on in terms of foreign policy ok john if i ask you one of the things go ahead rachel one of things i think is very interesting is that you know in light of what joseph had to say is i don't think that you know we we've always had just black and white from a western point of view looking at the arab and muslim world is very black and white and i think we've been very much surprised over the last few months and i think that's an understatement one thing i think there is a lot of unity and not just sectarian differences it's the end of neo colonialism

in the region by the west and i think that's one commonality with the entire region could embrace irrespective of your religious sect go ahead. i think i think israel misjudge is this the potential for turkey egypt online it's at its own peril and to attempt to be that dismissive about it and say oh they're not going to accept an arab or they're not going to accept a sunni or whatever division you choose to impose on the facts of the matter is that turkey and egypt are already talking about regional alliance and it makes sense egypt is very keen to punch its regional weight as the largest arab country in the arab world. status was constantly diminished and downplayed and compromised by the former president hosni mubarak. turkey has candidly understood this

kind of regional change and is keen to jump aboard and i also think it's an extraordinary miscalculation to keep saying that the israeli card is irrelevant clearly the palestinian cause is deeply significant across the middle east. and until that becomes a focus for israel as well i think israel is running into very dangerous ground john what do you think about i mean the relevance here because you know let's be fair here ok i mean this is an important issue among arabs and muslims all around the world i think we all agree with that but then again which the proud to call can be used as a domestic political card in a home for elections for popularity. make sure you could be employment or high prices or you know you can say we can pull up the palestinian card i mean there is an element of that as well was unfair. oh there certainly is and it has played to a certain extent in turkey itself but i think in a dak pay the ruling party has been popular for id of other reasons namely anomic

success as well as foreign policy victories i think you know it's important to recognize that turkey is exerting a great deal of soft power in the region that will last long beyond the a paper in the fortunes of air to one. talking about the economic investments we're talking about the schools i mean one visit you didn't mention that over the summer was to somalia this is a place where no foreign leader was willing to go because it was so dangerous and he went there and it's been followed by turkish man carrying aid and that opened the flood gates for other humanitarian aid to go in and this is boosted turkish profile and the horn of africa tremendously this kind of soft power of the turkey is wielding is far more important in many ways and than the military power that it is unfortunately using and other other parts of the region whether we're talking northern iraq or threatened and cyprus for instance just simply do you think it's

very interesting soft power here played mentioned you know i think it's very very important it seems like turkey has done a really good job at mastering it is how is israel going to have to really react to this because again we started out the program with democratization is israel feeling more comfortable in a region that is becoming more democratic because there are islamic elements that are involved in these processes that in egypt also we have in turkey is this something that israel has to learn to adjust because bill for decades has just relied upon dictators and american help i mean doesn't have a lot more happening now needs to be a lot more finesse now instead of just relying on force. these will go to spain we never like to take those really like those those who make peace as well as are the people democrats will be those who want to make peace with as we welcome them and the question is about democracy merely say making the. before i would repeat it now obviously we are in support of democracy all over the middle east because we're a democratic nation we would like to see all other nations being democratic and as i said before for example syria i believe and i by the way was

a member of the israeli delegation for peace talks with syria in the past i believe that if we have a democratic government in syria it will be much more conducive to peace between our two countries and then not so that's just one example but when you talk about democracy what do you mean really i mean if you take for example a country like the kingdom of jordan is it a democratic situation there where the palestinian majority of seven people are saying peace basically downtrodden all surprised by the answer my dynasty i'm not saying that he could change your mind saying he is when we talk about democracy in the middle east let's face the realities what really are we expected to see and what we mean by that it's not enough to use the word democracy but really the kind of democracy in iraq. i know just really very mean you know we've run out of time thank you very much to my guest today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time remember rostock weeks. are going to take you.

to. get some closure see the story of the six so you think you understand it and then something else you hear so you saw the part of it and realized everything you thought you knew going into our blog is a big check. if

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