with results michael beverly closer to tell mccoy libya it's only cintra hotel mccown. looking back about your life to recover now about top stories chaos at the israeli border with bullets flying across the checkpoint this is a palestinian issue dead in a clash with israeli soldiers tensions are heating up just a short time before a bid for the palestinian statehood was formally submitted to the u.n. . fears of a double dip global recession intensifying in the wake of those days huge markets plunge that spared no one all the way from asia to europe but that several greek banks have been downgraded due to the worsening economic situation in the u.s.

stocks are heading for the last week the losses since two thousand. and clashes between pro and anti-government forces in yemen the intensified with the death toll from five days of violence reaching a hundred countries president returns to the yemeni capital three months off a surviving an assassination. all right on my colleague is here in half an hour's time but for now it's cross talk and the focus being on yemen and the ongoing violence there. well see british science says the time to explain. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy because the reports on our key.

can. still. keep. a low in welcome to cross talk time people about him and our failing state unfolding in front of our eyes protests around the country demand be seen change while at the same time the death toll grows why isn't there more international condemnation of the yemeni was and why is yemen treated differently as the arab revolutions continue. to take. to cross documents lembo i'm joined by mohamed kobach in london he's a member and spokes person for the yemeni national council also in london we have john rees he is a national officer at stop the war coalition and in washington we crossed him bastard david newton he's an adjunct scholar at the middle east institute all right gentlemen this is crossfire that means you can jump in anytime you want but first i

want to go to my show here why is yemen being treated differently would say from syria and libya that's right peter for months now be international community has watched another arab country descent into civil strife and government demonstrations in yemen began last january and the company of those in tunisia when three months later nato started bombing libya to protect civilians dozens were being killed in yemen and government crackdowns and following more deaths in sun week political rhetoric means no solution in sight. right we call on all sides to desist from violence. problems that agreement for political transition in yemen. the tens of thousands yemenis protesting against president ali abdullah saleh is thirty three year old we flick mounting discontent over his repeated refusal to hand over power those of us who've spoken with him know that you know the commitment he has made and he should chance to polish the should sign the agreement

on top of a beleaguered regime yemen is faced with a host of complex internal challenges the rebellion in the north a growing secessionist movement in the south accompanied by deep tribal divides dire economic conditions and fierce competition among the political elites. while experts warn the protests could push the country to the brink yemen still seems to be too dangerous a case to interfere and primarily because it is believed to housing one of the world's most dangerous branches of our kind. we are obviously concerned about the instability in yemen we consider al qaeda in the arabian peninsula which is largely located in yemen to be perhaps the most dangerous of all of franchises of al qaeda right now the uprising in yemen presents a predicament for the u.s. replacing the style of government means losing a dependable ally in its counterterrorism strategy but also for a chance to build a genuinely democratic state converse way ignoring popular sentiment could result

in far worse instability and possibly a breeding ground for extremism. they have a floor or very interesting for that thank you for that mohamed if i go to you first but i think the word that was brought up here in monsters report is the lemma because if you look at mainstream media you know we either have it's a civil war and we should all stay out of it and obama the way what's more important to look at is al qaeda and it seems to me and maybe i'm wrong and maybe you'll correct me that all we hear about is about security threats to the west losing an ally and there's not much said about the people on the ground people that are dying every single day but the end there's very little international condemnation except for that he should go how do you comment on that. first i would like. a new does it all does and it's in for my friend david david newton was in or a long time and that's the name of his and all hand in yemen and he also was the

great decorated in yemen at one time. i think yesterday happy to hear at least some from president obama saying that he is siding with the uprising and with their many people's choice but unfortunately what we have been hearing for many months now. for such an uprising we have never seen an actual action or deeds on the ground till now i mean the president and his into ridge have not yet faced any sanctions and any. and all we have. i'm sorry let me let me jump in here mohamed i mean what is it is it just because of the war on terrorism the u.s. and its allies decided this real or imagined threat of al qaeda in yemen is far more important democratic values of protecting the rights of people on the ground i'm sorry to be very straightforward that is that the case yes yes yes yes i don't think that's only the kids i think the friends in the united states have left this

file in or for it to be treated or to be confronted by c.n.n. specially our neighbors the saudis and the saudis have been a little bit has it comes as regards you know their position i mean there had been reports at one time to push that i was in the president but we have been hearing reports that sometimes the family there are people who are you know are having second thoughts about that ok well let's. talk about saudi arabia later because there are reports that the saudis are arming this regime here david if i can go to you again we started out with the program with the word dilemma i mean what is the dilemma washington has right now because it would seem to me the more they try to pursue their war on terror and al qaeda in yemen the more it creates terror that needs to be fought you see what i mean it's like a vicious circle. yes i'm not sure that's true quite now after all the yemeni army and yemeni government is fire fighting al qaida down in the south

and we have used drones we have a common enemy and fortunately they've made themselves a better target by concentrating down there with the u.s. has done quite a bit the american ambassador along with his european union colleagues especially the german have tried very hard it's a tough situation it's difficult the president is kind of a difficult target you think you have a commitment and it's gone but we understand that. even if he was helpful to us in some regards in the past is is fundamentally gone and there has to be a new regime but it's going to take a collective effort by a lot of people and the g.c.c. in the end i would hope would come through with some substantial economic assistance to help the country there are a lot of different factions on the contrary and they're not united fortunately there's the vice president i think everybody hopes will now be able to play

a more more useful role and we hope fairly soon with luck that you might get an agreement ok well that's the word hope doesn't seem to help the people of yemen very much john if i can go to you has the west decided made its choice its much prefer to use its drones killing i said real or imagined elements of al qaeda and yemen and just ignore everything that the west says it believes about the arab revolutions the arab awakening because it seems like just an enormous amount of duplicity and we've seen the west in this part of the world duplicity is the first word that comes to mind. yes it's obvious that the americans most people and most generally in the west can't say that they prefer. the devil they don't know but it's equally player from their actions that if they have decided that sollars they has passed they can't find that alternative and so they're sticking with the devil they know or rather than try to do anything fundamental about it but

in many ways that may be an advantage for the yemeni people after all the so-called assistance that the west gave to the revolution in libya actually transformed it from a people's uprising into an internal colony of the western powers and i don't think anybody wants to see that happen to the yemeni revolution either so i think there's a hard and bloody road ahead for yemenis but they may end up being grateful that the indecision of the western powers and their inability to find an interlock that in yemen gives them the space to settle accounts with a solid that takes ship on their own on their own terms ok let's talk about saudi in a second here mohamed if i can go back to you let me go ahead jump in go ahead. yeah i know what your point is mr ambassador go ahead. yeah i don't know if anyone is found an interlocutor and i don't know if anyone thinks that ali abdullah saleh whatever he has done in the past really has

a political future in the country this is a delicate dance to try to get him replaced with a new government but there are many people interested in replacing him but there's no plea her spokesman it's not up to the outside world i think to choose the new person it's ok to not know how much i don't know that's already been real quick on head to head that that's true but when people use phrases like you know we there is no single spokesman we have no interlocutor well frankly what business is it of yours and there's no one spokesman you know i could. states there's no single voice in the united kingdom these are divided by political differences that's how it should be ok michael let me ask you well i mean let me ask you a question before we go to the break here i mean one of the things you know is a western media mainstream media will say it's the regime and protesters but really what's going on is that there's a lot of rivalries within the elite itself ok where you have different people who

have defected from the president that have paid position of power in the security forces in the military so this is more of a civil war at the top isn't it. just let me defer the answer for that first peter i would like just to point out a not from from ground experience in on the confrontation with the islamic store the extremists on my level of saddam has pushed to take all. of the past in or two or three months has shown that actually and the unit which had been trained by the americans did not take part in confronting those islamists it was the defected army and the people who have every concert of actually confronted the islamists in abyan you know i bill assad has got some units around nearly five to ten thousand and they're never at all confronted by the extremists in abyan so from from experience underground it shows that the people who are going to come these you also on the underground now that democrats are the people asking for

a civilian government and for democracy they're not going to be siding with a powder that's one of the mistakes which our friends in the letter said are. all coming in the people who are going to come there will never at all be siding with applied of islamists it is it is one of those fallacies which i think our friends in the states now realize the point is to make here is that our people the people in the west and in they have got to learn a new way of dealing with yemen with why always they want all the time we could deal with one person they have got to deal with institutions we are trying to build institutions and the west have got to learn to. get involved and address institutions of don't get in just autocrats or good turtles ruling that the countries of the middle east so building institutions is one of the ends of the revolution now in a man and a lot of people there on the ground who are democrats who are pro western in their mind and who are looking for the journalist community to make here to the top of that if you can build civil society during the civil war after

a short break we'll continue our discussion of party. and. the. very first verses of the bible that all human beings are created with son it all came in god's image and it doesn't say just jews or god just. sixty to seventy percent of what i did as a combat soldier in the occupied territories was a do with the turds doing what we call making our presence felt you go out should some birds who hear a knock on some doors run to the other corner and they don't know the house religion or nationalism not to students them have been a part of the problem they've been part of what leads to. bloodshed

if you want to bomb guys out and kill i fell in four hundred people in a month and you want to expect that this will have no effect and a feeling you have to be either extremely naive or it's from stupid you don't even exist if you're a jew a religious jew calling another jew i'm not i'm not a really good accounting. can. welcome back to crossfire computer lavelle to remind you we're talking about humans

quagmire. q. ok john i'd like to go back to you the gulf cooperation countries are going to have a lot of people put a lot of faith in what they can do in good negotiating an end to the crisis and and yemen but i mean saudi arabia isn't the biggest friend of the arab spring the arab awakening whatever term you like and there are reports that the saudis are arming this regime and we have to remember that the united states trains and gave technical assistance and who else who knows what else to this regime after the attack on the u.s.s. cole back in two thousand so here's a regime that is very sophisticated quote unquote in dealing with anti-terrorism and you have saudi arabia giving at least tacit support maybe a whole lot more but doesn't bode well for any kind of democratic values and institutions and civil society i would say in yemen does it. well no i think if we

are assessing the stance of the saudi arabian regime we have to start with the fact that it was the key instrument in crushing the bahraini revolution system to the bahraini ruling class to the extent that they physically eradicated the pro round about where the protests were taking place and continue their own their own population and they did this with the full knowledge and assistance of the united states the gulf cooperation council is emerging as the locus of counter revolution in the middle east that is of internment opponent of the arab revolutions it will either by or crush the revolutions where where it can and so i think looking for help from this direction is profoundly misguided ok david if i go you get how do you how do you see the the position of the united states and its allies in the gulf in dealing with is he doing the right thing and is doing too much too little or should be doing something different. ok let me say first of all i don't think we're in a civil war fortunately there's a lot of violence but it hasn't collapsed into

a civil war i agree with mohamed there we need to deal with institutions and help build it up and we've tried that over the years the united states has a dilemma. it's not clear which way to go and mainly our effort has been to try to find an agreement among the parties and there are people don't sell the yemenis sure there are very many people in the middle and the government hooting the vice president the foreign minister who's here in the united states other ministers are working very mr mr ambassador i mean the fact of the matter is the fact of the matter is the vice president of yemen has no power whatsoever and he hasn't been delegated any powers whatsoever i mean it's a fig leaf here ok i mean the fact of the fact of the matter is that point is you know if they're just back to the matter is the president wants to make sure his. children his sons remain in some kind of power position in yemen that's the

negotiating point and it's not his departure it's not his family's control of yemen in the future that's what it's about isn't it well these are not the only people who want to be or in the government there are the family general a lot more there are many people to deal with and you've got to find a way forward and the opposition i think is now more united is trying hard so don't sell the yemenis short there are intelligent people in there there are this is a very difficult situation but it is not hopeless mommy do you think there should be a western intervention into yemen like we see in. libya and what the saber rattling we've heard about possibly going into syria would you want that to happen. just one point i think the saudis have got to realize well i mean the case in yemen is different from from from bahrain and then we just want to remind the world we have received one million refugees from from somalia and it is. as if

civil war god forbid breaks in yemen are the saudis prepared to receive a million suffer if it is into their country into some borders which went disputed til ten years ago so that the should be a good reminder for our brothers in saudi arabia to take a positive stance towards preventing yemen from falling into chaos and anarchy then as regards your your point just in mind what was the point. what was your question you asked me the question i asked you so you think there should be a western military intervention into yemen because i mean look i mean look i mean we've already brought up in the program here the west won't do any for the people anything for the people of bahrain it did apparently do something for the people of libya will see that it was a good idea in the longer term well what about your country what about you and would you like to see no fly zone for example ok ok peter let me just compare and contrast libya and yemen yes we would like to see and not fly zone but we don't

want any aircraft to be actually in the air hitting you know people or you know some sports in the ground we just want and not flies on like it was once i mean you cannot have a no fly zone without military force i'm sorry it's impossible not to i don't know they had it in iraq they headed to iraq come on. peter just what i meant we don't know no. no no no that's simply wrong let me. jump in let's remember let's remember what the no fly zone in iraq meant no fly zone in iraq but destruction of rebel forces in the course with them are. right. in the south it meant the attack on the kurds in the north after the first gulf war it was a preparation for sanctions it became the preparation for the for the military intervention in iraq so please please please do not let's play

a no fly zone in iraq as if this was some neutral cover which assisted the opposition to saddam hussein it ignored. the letter what happens after is something different what happened what happened letter is different i'm comparing the not fly zone which was enclosed in iraq what happened in libya and libya do you and you know what is allusion was not not not flies on it was also to protect civilians on the ground we don't want protection of the civilians we are underground we think that we have got the revolution is have lot more power then the gene to confront it on the ground with just what is that they're going to intervene with no other plans but with helicopters as it is happening they have been gone by out of the out have which is only thirty forty kilometers north of samarra and there are more than three hundred people killed there what do you mean yes i would like to see not fly zone but i would not like to see what you know not what not just did in libya there were actually leading the forces there were hitting guys on the ground we don't

want them to. go last i don't actually know. we just want them to prevent them but he has a long time to put him through from flying and hitting people like john guy he would have everybody who starts down this road where that was the kurds in iraq or whether it was the a.n.c. in libya everybody who starts down the road of saying we just want so much and no further from the imperial powers we don't want this we only want that they end up being pressed prisoners of these powers they end up being over the resources their country and the control of their government powers in the west and john john that's a far fetched thing we are do we want them to starve you know it's not enough lies on the floor of the flies on this is one time to start out an embargo on on weapon you know in part in yemen we want to see their assets frozen when they see. all right good to see any sanctions you. guys on david he's been very patient go mr abbas really like i really think we need to get to the fundamental issue what are

we trying to do in yemen and what are the young anymore trying to do what they're trying to do is in a difficult situation get a negotiated peaceful solution do we want a civil war or a war of one side to conquer the other i don't think yemenis want that they will i don't think the opposition wants that they want to get together a change of government but done by a peaceful resolution among the different parties. you know how much is that possible but we have. we have seen we have seen what happened you know we have got this you know this is the initiative it was about to be implemented and the forces can just to stop the doj from its implementation they're happy and ready to get the country into a diversion of a civil war so we know that so we want as we have said we want to be treated the same way we have never seen the real pleasure of underage until now as a religion i mean that to say that unfortunately even for david i'm sorry for for

peter our friends in russia had been killed two weeks three weeks ago or sending you know weapons to some or this is something we're also seeing is the building is a bomb and i am not a spokesperson for the russian government however and the reason was because i let me finish it you brought it up there's a lot of people in the world that are very very skeptical now of the united nations using these resolutions a no fly zone one day and then you like boots on the ground the second day ok there's a lot of people the majority of the people of the world are very concerned about how western powers violate the sovereignty of other countries could you would you like to comment on that john well. the this this is the thing i mean nobody can say that it couldn't start with exactly these kind of phrases in libya and you end up what you end up with you end up with the former colonial powers in north africa france and britain with sarkozy and cameron bragging about how they've helped the revolution in libya despite the chaos around them they have to get in and get out

quickly for anything worse happen to them and the very last thing i agree with mohammed about this the yemenis do have the power to settle accounts with the seller to take the ship and that's the key principle here is the people who do the fighting get to do the running of the country afterwards we've seen it again and again if it's one hundred first airborne or u.s. a.f. or the aria of the french air force they get to control the country afterwards. the yemenis themselves like this like the tunisians whatever the political differences amongst them they're the people who get through the liberating and they're the people who got to run their country afterwards mr masters. let me go to david here david where do we have a one minute left here let's get i'm going to give you a hypothetical you are suited to the country if the country were to collapse what would be the implications for the region and maybe keeping in mind here go ahead well i think there's magic in one reason there may be large numbers of refugees trying to go to saudi arabia but i don't expect their country to collapse and those

long term serious problems but i think the yemenis despite the fact that there are elements on both sides they don't really want a solution or stopping the fighting except on their terms and i still believe the yemenis can reach a peaceful change of government. will have to turn over power ok mohamed i'm going to give you the last word what is your appeal to international public opinion go ahead get the last word let me just i want to say one sentence which. appeared. to the chairman of the human rights council it says without intervention yemen will explode and the explosion will spill over into the neighboring region and international trade routes action must be taken now to prevent the classes from spreading and becoming beyond repair all right we're going to end on that note many thanks to my guest today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules.