immunity where you have one large corporation control only until you sleep on radio stations television stations the cable outlet you know you told me that that sounds like democracy public opinion versus f.c.c. well against blues marching. through with archie it live from moscow our top stories the anti wall street protests that have grown in new york over the past few weeks are spreading to other major cities including washington thousands of americans are joining demonstrations against poverty and corporate greed as the country struggles to deal with the ongoing economic crisis. the key suspects in the killing of russian journalist on the new course there five years ago are to be formally charged with her murder investigators also say they found new accomplices her family are hopeful progress

in the case will see justice potentially serve. pushing the purpose instead of pulling out quickly america's probably afghan exit strategy overshadows the mission's tenth anniversary with a deadline expected to be missed the top u.s. military commander in afghanistan says the war will drag on beyond twenty fourteen . now with the arab world spending most of this year in turmoil peter lavelle asks his gas what challenges lie ahead for people in countries where regimes work talk about our debate show cross talk is up next. can. welcome to cross talk you know about what is the distance between the arab spring in arab democracy some people of the arab middle east have demonstrated they can

rid themselves of dictators but one of the challenges associated with the ballot box and is the west sincerely interested in seeing democracy take root in the arab world. can. start. to cross-talk arab democracy i'm joined by lisa dr in los angeles she's an award winning journalist with expertise in the middle east in boston we have your him may tell he is head of the charm hertzog center and on the faculty of ben gurion university and in seattle we cross to ramsey group he is editor in chief of the palestine chronicle all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want since you have to go first this morning for this program what is your opinion of the state of the democratic process in the arab world right now from tunisia egypt leave libya and then maybe looking a little bit about the struggles going on in yemen and syria. i don't know if

democratic is is the word that we should use. untired across the middle east but particularly in this case because it doesn't look like that's the way it's going to go i mean these things don't happen overnight revolutions on happened overnight and we're not going to see the exact results pan out overnight however these revolutions usually happen in three steps first as a popular uprising second the dictator is toppled and third there is an empty stage and an opportunity for a well organized well supported well funded groups to step right in and in all of the cases that we've seen in all the countries that have experienced an arab spring we are seeing an islamist influence hovering overhead and the groups that have been around for many years not giving the young people in these countries an opportunity to form a secular coalition to gather their constituents i mean it's been three decades in egypt for decades in libya that they have not been to the governing themselves they're new with this they don't have the experience and they're not having that be

the opportunity or the time to. organize and for the young people to really get themselves heard this was their movement and unfortunately we're watching as it unfolds and it might be a hijacking of the movement by these other islamist groups ok well we heard the word hijack really early in the program i thought we'd hear a little bit later what do you think about the state of the democratic process whether you know we're looking at obviously where there have been major changes in that's tunisia and then also egypt and libya but ari do you see this hijacking process is it too early to say. no i do believe that there might be not might be the is in fact some hijacking process taking place but the hijacking is not happening by the groups within these countries who are very much interested in having a real democratic process and the way the hijacking is happening by the us it's

happening by france happening by britain happening by the very forces that have supported the dictatorship in these countries for many years i mean who have propped up and allowed to rule over his people for all those years whose money whose support whose military funding wasn't at the u. us i know it was in south africa i know for a fact it wasn't trash it must have been the us it is infallible us so if there's any hijacking that's going to happen to think this country is back to the to the era where mubarak and khadafi and these men have ruled over the middle east the hijacking will happen from the us and other western allies however as i think the question itself after a kind of clues to the answer it's a democratic process it's a process it has a start and it's already started the question is will it yield the results that are intended by the revolutionaries and i think there is going to be a struggle and the struggle is under way right now to ensure that democracy in fact

becomes the real outcome the ultimate outcome of all of this ok your image i'm going to you in boston so we we have the word hijack we have we heard one say hijacked from within islam was mentioned and we have ramzi that is saying hijacked from without where do you stand there or is there a third way. well first i think it's too early to see all we are having this hijacking scenario no doubt one will your. watching or experiencing a decisive moment in the story of the mainly. societies and regimes in the middle east to. include transition phase or stage will take different spend or star in egypt is not libya. and libya is not and so on so for now as for the question of the.

meanings of this transition phase i would say that the most important challenge here is of course to the egyptian society or arab society in general. we challenge is coming through dis new political map we are having a completely different political map in tunisia in egypt and the beginning of this in of course. the uprising in libya. second will come very soon. this struggle between the different political parties will get to the question of phrasing a new constitution it's very this is a huge euro if i could jump in here and say i mean also there's another dynamic that's in play here is how much is the old regime want to hang on in it in a different guise a different party in that we see that very much in egypt right now we've seen

a lot of scuffles going on right now so at least if i can go to you i mean you know you see this the mubarak porker two point zero coming in because you know the military is extremely powerful in egypt extremely close to the united states still and the the united states would probably like to see that ally relate ally relationship stay there and so the regime and the postman party cuisine is just mubarak without this head. but there's a there's a problem here where you have yes the military on one hand but how about this big constituency of eighty five million people who are incompatible revolutionary mode they have no means of moving forward and seeing this next chapter there are not able to go on and do the nation building as we had all we talked about back in february and at the beginning of their movement that they will have to spend the next few years obviously the next few months of the you know in long term at least

another decade in nation building mode and they haven't been able to do that and in the meantime. groups such as with muslim brotherhood they have the they've won over the people because they've been around for years they've done things for the people they put up soup kitchens and schools and libraries and they've pander to their constituency which is usually the lower socio and i cannot make the groups and you know that's why revolution starts because of poverty it's because of unemployment people do not go to bed at night thinking about democracy and about you know these lofty ideals and they don't also go to bed thinking about sharia law but they do go to bed thinking about is how they're going to put bread on the table the next day how they're going to feed a family how they're going to use their education that they've received and there's no jobs i mean these are the real concerns of the people and whether or not they're going to be heard in the next chapter of islamic mean i'd rather egyptian government i doubt it because there are extremists influences are too strong and

the united states well i mean this is you know it's easy to see these in the stream live at least as it is and it is in these remains are going to soup kitchens and libraries. so we look at the muslim brotherhood the muslim brotherhood of yesterday . ramsey go ahead you know let me just say something i think this is a very consistent thing if you are of the arabs and this is a very typical kind of right wing american view about this mainstream america really protests and then a little bit know that let me let me just let me just finish my thought out here and then you can jump in but i have to finish ramsey i have to finish my thought know people do go to bed people do go to bed thinking about democracy and arabs do go to bed thinking about freedom and their rights to express themselves and to have their own the present that is the parliaments the think about it they have earned it they worry about it the whole revolution for it say it's not about the money about poverty per se libya by the way libya in particular is one of the has the

highest national g.n.p. in the entire continent of africa yet this still went through a process that yielded almost fifty thousand deaths obviously democracy does have a price freedom does have a price and they will do anything to to to get it now this guy who will cleary about the muslim the muslim brotherhood's opening opening kitchen me in a soup kitchens and all of that and this is how the one hearts and minds just that's all archaic thinking that is still perpetuity for some reason the muslim brotherhood have been around for over eighty years and they have been a solid and consistent aquaculture jumpy million years the argument in the last year is going on in boston you've only spoken once in this program go ahead sir. well i feel we should think about the role of the political islam and especially of muslim brotherhood in this stage out of the box of the previous stage which was the

stage of authoritarian regimes supported by the west and all this now it's not that the west or other countries are not interested in sometime involved in what is going on in egypt of course and other places but the most important thing is there the challenge today is not only to not only islamist parties it's a huge challenge for the political islam. parties especially the muslim brotherhood now see what happened since the beginning of this year in egypt the muslim brotherhood and serves have been split into several camps so they come for the first time to the place that it's not one monolithic muslim brotherhood it's by far more complex so the point here that i would like to make is that we should think in a different concept about the role of the political islam in this stage and i don't think that political islam or most pacifically the muslim brotherhood are about to

hijack the revolution in egypt. all right joe we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion of arab democracy state. can you. see. that. on. a very warm welcome to you this is your news today the protesters on hold since they have. essentially it's a good chance to choose since it's a good book except the status of the human experiments given. to weeks you proclaim this rap music would expose the military trying to censor local economies and it's

on changelings us financial templates the responsibility to maintain our confidence in markets and. wants to be seems way to balance its risks to keep the nations close to sing a song like look close. to fail circle a box again feel a little like think is us crash and imminent. is it close to the complacent thing streets behind for sports mail just programs increase the total economy. brought our hero. we hear it because our country outs that's. the god promised them this is the land belongs to us. we'll if they are still going to be thinking that they are god's chosen people will

believe that god is. ok is that for you guys this is for you. this is all right. this is my. case. welcome back to talk a little too much we're talking about democratic transitions in the arab world. you

can. see. ok ramsey and i to go back to you in seattle i suppose really but it gets down to what i hear in the mainstream all the time is that islam and democracy and arabs are just three things that just can't get along but it's kind of interesting isn't it that the muslims and arabs in this tight part of the world just been denied democracy for forever they've never had a chance at it and so yeah everyone comes out batting saying it's all antithetical i mean as it hasn't why should we just give arabs and muslims a lot of arabs or muslims a chance of having building their own democratic societies instead of being told if it's extremist or not extremist or moderate enough or state is there now for outside influence enough i mean it's very early days still. exactly peter but good for them it's really not too early because what really worries them is not about the relationship between islam and democracy this issue is being resolved

based on the internal mics and electric's of this very society's single day there are debates everywhere in the arab world and arabic t.v. stations about secularism in islam how is this relating to women how is it relating to. the economy with these things do not really matter to the very people who come and infuse this war islamic elements what worries them are two things first they are worried about this menace this islamic terrorist menace that has they have exaggerated they have created to some extent and exaggerated and they cannot get over it frankly and it's just really not part of our society we do not think about al qaeda day and night it's just not part of our goal sure i was inside and no knowledge is. a hold on the other point i have here is that is that the other thing that was in israel and this is a major major issue they didn't bring it up sometimes straightforward but this is what it is they are worried that if the muslim brotherhood in egypt take over the

market and the world renegotiate camp david if you know in fact let's go over it all together so they are worried about their ally israel they are worried a bit over this foreign policy interest but they are not at all worried about the needs and the desires and the interest of the people but they wouldn't come forward and say that it is this is this is in fact what is happening lisa you want to jump in go right ahead lisa go ahead no that's absolutely absolutely untrue it's about terrorism it's about extremism has nothing to do with israel it has nothing to do with the u.s. it has everything to do with the people of these countries who went out onto the streets who risked their lives who are continuing to risk their lives it's about the daughters and the sisters but just just the other day i read a report about. well they're about the. other than this is if you cared about them if you need your head and listen listening in to hear him because he has had this question why resist and what the answer is western p.s.a. flow is that humanity has so much about these people and why did you fund military

regime why did you fund the military regime in egypt and you funded also school run through genes in the middle east for so many years why did you give the egyptian army one point three million dollars a year for what see for the daughters and sons of egypt you really care about them that much that you would be arming the very people who have been have been posing as as the defenders of the egyptians but in reality they have been in a crash course with the egyptian people ok jarome i want to go to you know i want to go to boston here israel was brought up here and i want i don't want to talk about directly about israel because we don't want arab democracy here but there are people who would say and you might call them cynics is that the only thing the west is particularly interested in is in democratic change in the arab world is make sure their progress turn that's what they want they don't really care about anything else because ramses pointed out for decades dictators were supported because they were friends of the west so no matter what the outcome is that it's not about democracy it's about western influence still go ahead. well this is one

perspective the western influence or. part or by this. huge transformation but i would say actually two point here the one is that at the very beginning of the uprising in egypt tunisia the places he saw it was not on the actually on the table it was not an issue israel it started. later on we have. disagreements about. saving gas to israel. after the whole debate within egypt about the can they get now i would like to say here. i think something that is important to this discussion we should look at various perspective you're a it's not that one party in egypt including the muslim brotherhood will gain at

the end of the day the one hundred percent they won't get from the cake so yes the army most probably will transfer power to an elected government but they will play a significant role behind the scenes this is obvious to the egyptian army is actually connected with the united states with the peace with israel so i think that concerning the peace treaty or commitments to the peace in general i do not predict. lapse of the this commitment but three and this is the most important change is that an elected government in egypt we surf the voices of criticism and endure and resentment against israel's policy and this would bring to the table much more aggressive egyptian policy told israel without risking only collecting commitment their general commitment to the peace with israel so let

me let me run through. on this one because it's an interesting point out an interesting point here i think again you know western powers have been so involved in the region and move people would call it a neo colonial experiment it's coming to an end are this is really what's at issue here is that these countries that are going through this transition whatever that transition we want to call it is going to have eventually their own foreign policies and this is something that really shakes up the work we haven't seen that in the post-war period go ahead. we know very well through so many public opinion polls that have been taken in recent years how do our ups actually feel about about israel about us foreign policy of education of iraq about all of these things we know for a fact how they feel and we know that if these these future governments indeed the be presenting the opinion of the masses then we know that there is going to be a problem here for the u.s. it is going to be

a very serious problem for israel as well and this is why this is why there's a major game underway here in which the u.s. and nato are trying to hijack the arab revolution to ensure that the outcomes are as if you go and as likable to us foreign policy as possible and they are not as as you as mention too aggressive towards israel i think the outcome of this game will determine a great deal but from what i see especially especially in egypt and in tunisia it's going to be a democracy for the people and by the people and it's not about bread and it's not about food it's about the life of the egyptian people has really we'll have these themselves and the relationship in the region it's not at all least. i jump in. that's that's completely not completely wishful thinking what we have said from the beginning of the arab spring is that we have not seen it being an anti-american movement or an anti israel movement we didn't see american flags being burned on the street we didn't see israeli flags being burned on the street and i was

a very positive sign that this is a grassroots movement it's about nationalism and you know what we're as soon as those whatever the government takes for in the next stage they will use exactly those sentiments the anti-american sentiment be anti israel sentiment to rally the people around the flag it was done in iran three thirty years ago it will be done again if the smartest move the government can do to rally and unite the people the common goal at this point with the people with nation building the common goal of the new government or the anti israel anti us anti west sentiments mark my words your him when he says well democracy is very scary for you isn't it. you were replying to that lisa i was saying this is why democracy real democracy is very scary for people like lisa because you are going to produce what you would perceive as anti american but by the way they are we are not anti americans egyptians are not anti americans egyptians are anti the very policy that the us has instituted in

their country they want to see that change change those policies and believe me you will see egyptians not being at the americans that's all ok you're about to find go back to you and pastor it is what it. is this group continues here we're talking about independent foreign policies and i mean would not be better for what some people call mistake we call the peace process between the palestinians and israel because israel would have more of a stake in making a peace with the palestinians and then you take the issue off the cable. well understood from you that this world is not the issue here in this program so just about whether what i'm saying is i want to let me really make this very clear where i make it very clear here is that at lease is saying you know it's going to be anti-american and it's going to be anti israel but israel has this moment this opportunity to make a peace process real then they get their security in the palestinians going through an eight i mean and and that shows that these countries would have to have a genuine foreign policies that are independent where people would actually support

their government in having a peace process itself all through the region go ahead. ok so first i would say that i don't think that. the an elected government will automatically reflect. i would say an aggressive. foreign policy toward the united states i think there will be much more criticizing of the american policy and especially more criticizing of israel but the more important thing here is also that when we raise the issue of israel israel is not like you know a remote player so heavily depends on what israel will do or perceive about the arab spring or more specifically about an egyptian. government who would live to maybe rephrase because in the camp david agreement now in israel and we have a right wing coalition this right right wing coalition do not interested at this

point in progress in the peace process with the palestinians especially because for . the arab spring presents a threat they see they are of supreme court process of them across this nation. a huge threat coming in the direction of israel and they trying to defuse this threat just by. buying some time food this peeved policy that. is basically. we have the american administration here and we thought it was ok i'm going to jump in here we've run out of time here we'll see what happens when the arabs go to the ballot box many thanks to my guest today in boston los angeles and in seattle and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember last august.