top stories from international america's former top. is the only halfway to reaching the goals of no idea how to end the mission successfully with comments coming sadly ten years over washington launched its bloody country. forces launched the biggest assault. civilians flee in panic saying conditions are desperate for those inside the colonel's last remaining strongholds. and growing street protests in the u.s. capital is thousand expressed fury of the tax dollars used to bolster the big

business activists say are fed up with breaking work bonus and flow into the pockets of already wealthy bankers. but the arab world spending most of this last year in turmoil people of. next what challenges lie for people the countries where their regimes have been toppled cross-talk coming right up. wealthy british scientists. know that. markets finance scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in these kinds of reports on r.t. . can. still.

welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle what is the distance between the arab spring in arab democracy some people of the arab middle east have demonstrated they can rid themselves of dictators but one of the challenges associated with the ballot box and is the west sincerely interested in seeing democracy take root in the arab world. can. start. to cross-talk arab democracy i'm joined by lisa daftari in los angeles she's an award winning journalist with expertise in the middle east in boston we have your him may tell he is head of the charm hertzog center and on the faculty of ben gurion university and in seattle we cross to ramsey beirut he is editor in chief of the palestine chronicle all right folks the crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want lisa since you have to go first this morning for

this program what is your opinion of the state of the democratic process in the arab world right now from tunisia egypt leave libya and then maybe looking a little bit about the struggles going on in yemen and syria. i don't know if democratic is is the word that we should use in untired across the middle east particularly in this case because it doesn't look at that's the way it's going to go i mean these things don't happen overnight revolutions don't happen overnight and we're not going to see the exact results pan out overnight however these revolutions usually happen in three steps first as a popular uprising second the dictator is talk all and third there is an empty stage an opportunity for a well organized well supported well funded groups to step right in and in all of the cases that we've seen in all the countries that have experienced an arab spring we are seeing an islamist influence hovering overhead and groups that have been

around for many years not giving the young people in these countries an opportunity to form a secular coalition to gather their constituents i mean it's been three decades in egypt for decades in libya but they have not been to the governing themselves they're new with this they don't have the experience and they're not having that be the opportunity or the time to. organize and for the young people to really get themselves heard this was their movement and unfortunately we're watching as it unfolds and it might be a hijacking of the movement by these other islamist groups ok ramsey we heard the word hijacked really early in the program i thought we were hearing a little bit later what do you think about the state of the democratic process i mean you know we're looking at obviously where there has been major changes in that's tunisia and that's also egypt and libya but ari do you see this hijacking process is it too early to say. no i do believe that there might be not might be the is in fact some hijacking process

taking place but the hijacking is not happening by the groups within these countries who are very much interested in having a real democratic process and the way the hijacking is happening by the us it's have been by france happening by britain it's happening by the very forces that have supported the dictatorship in these countries for many years i mean who have. and allows personal guard to rule over his people for all those years whose money who support whose military funding wasn't the u. us i know it was in south africa i know for a thousand it wasn't trash it must have been the us it is infallibly us so if there is any hijacking that's going to have been to take this country's back to the to the era where mobarak and khadafi and these men have ruled over the middle east the hijacking will happen from the us and other western allies however as i think the question itself after kind of clues to the answer it's a democratic process it's

a process it has a start and it already started the question is will it heal the results that are intended by the revolutionaries and i think there is going to be a struggle in the struggle is underway right now to ensure that the markers in fact becomes the real outcome the ultimate outcome of all of this ok you're a man i go to you in past and so we we have the word hijack we have we heard one hijacked from within islam was mentioned and we have ramzi that is saying hijacked from without where do you stand there or is there a third way. well first i think that it's too early to see all we are having this hijacking scenario no doubt. you're watching or experiencing a decisive moment in the story of the mainly. societies and regimes in the middle east to the into. a transition phase or

stage will take a different span of time egypt is not libya. is not the iman and so on so for now as for the question of. the meanings of this transition phase i would say that the most important challenge here is of course to the egyptian society or arab society in general. first the challenges coming through this new political mess we are having a completely different political neck in tunisia in egypt and the beginning of this in of course. the uprising in libya. second it will come very soon. this struggle between the different political parties will get to the

question or phrasing and you can still it's really this is a huge. if i may jump in here and say i mean but also there's another dynamic that's in play here is how much is the old regime want to hang on in it in a different guise a different party in that we see that very much in egypt right now we've seen a lot of scuffles going on right now so at least if i still go to you i mean you know you see this the mubarak supporters are two point zero coming in because you know the military is extremely powerful in egypt extremely close to the united states still and be the united states would probably like to see that ally relate ally relationship stay there and so the regime of the post mubarak regime is just mubarak without its head. right but there's a little problem here where you have yes with military on one hand but how about this big constituency of eighty five million people who are incompatible revolutionary mode they have no means of moving forward and seeing this next

chapter they have are not able to go on and do the nation building as we had all we talked about back in february and at the beginning of their movement but they will have to spend the next few years obviously the next few months with god you know in long term at least another decade in in mission building mode and they haven't been able to do that and in the meantime. groups such as muslim brotherhood big have movie they've won over the people because they've been around for years they've done things for the people they've put up soup kitchens and schools and libraries and they've pander to their constituency which is usually the lower socio and i cannot make groups and you know that's why revolution starts because of poverty it's because of unemployment people do not go to bed at night thinking about democracy and about you know these lofty ideals and they don't also go to bed thinking about sharia law what they do go to bed thinking about is how they're going to put bread on the table the next day how they're going to feed a family how they're going to use their education that they've received and there's

no jobs i mean these are the real concerns of the people and whether or not they're going to be heard in the next chapter of islamic rather egyptian government i doubt it because their extremist influences are too strong and the united states well i mean this again gina is easy it is extremely intrusive only she says it is it is in the stream of the soup kitchens and libraries. so we look at the muslim brotherhood the muslim brotherhood yesterday. ramsey go ahead you know let me just say something i think this is a very consistent in your view of the arabs and this is a very typical kind of right wing american view of this mainstream america really pretty and then a little bit know that let me let me just let me just finish my thought on how you and then you can jump in but i have to finish ramsey i had to finish my thought know people do go to bed people do go to bed thinking about democracy and arabs do go to bed thinking about freedom and their rights to express themselves and to have

the only presenters at the parliaments the think about it they have earned it they worry about it the horrible lucian for it sick it's not about the money about poverty per se libya by the way libya in particular is one of the has the highest national g.n.p. in the entire continent of africa yet this still went through a process that yielded almost fifty thousand deaths obviously democracy does have a price freedom does have a price and they would do anything to to to get this guy who you know will carry the muslim the muslim brotherhood's opening opening kitchen you know soup kitchens and all of that and this is how they won hearts and minds just this old archaic thinking that is still purple choice for some reason the muslim brotherhood have been around for over eighty years and they have been a solid and a consistent aquaculture jumpy a million years the are the monastery is going on in bastard you've only spoken

once of this program go ahead sir. well i think we should think about the role of the political islam and especially of the muslim brotherhood in this stage out of the box of the previous stage which was the stage of authoritarian regime supported by the west and all this now it's not that the west or other countries are not interested in sometime involved in what is going on in egypt of course and other places but the most important thing is that the challenge today is not only to normally islamist parties it's a huge challenge for the political islam. parties especially the muslim brotherhood now see what happened since the beginning of this year in egypt the muslim brotherhood themselves have been split into several camps so they come for the first time to the place that it's not one monolithic muslim brotherhood it's by far

more complex so the point here that i would like to make is that we should think in a different. way about the role of the political islam in this stage and i don't think their political islam almost pacifically the muslim brotherhood are about to hijack the revolution in egypt. all right i'm going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on arab democracy state park. the you can see. the it's. a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the polls saying they are. essentials

a good excuse to get the status of the human experiment to explode when. we pursue a businessman who knows what it knows is let me try some small local economies and it's on changelings us financial to the responsibility to maintain our confidence in markets and not want to be seems way mullins's with cheapie missions close to see the subprime loans close splits and fail circulate sinkin sealable cycling as the us crash seven smashed ceiling. to the classes in absence of such programs increase the total economy.

just so. can i say. welcome back i'm curious about your mind you were talking about democratic transitions in the arab world. can.

say. ok we're going to go back to you in seattle i suppose really what it gets down to what i hear in the mainstream all the time is that islam and democracy and arabs are just three things that just can't get along but it's kind of interesting isn't it did the muslims and arabs in this not part of the world has just been denied democracy for forever they've never had a chance at it and so you know everyone comes out batting saying it's all antithetical i mean as it hasn't. should we just give arabs and muslims a lot of arabs or muslims a chance of having building their own democratic societies instead of being told if it's extremist or not extremist or moderate enough or state is to now for outside influence enough i mean it's very early days still. exactly peter but for them it's really not too early because what's really worries them is not about the relationship between islam and democracy this issue is being resolved based on

the internal dynamics and electrics of this very societies though there are debates everywhere in the arab world and arabic t.v. stations about secularism in islam how is this relating to women how is it relating to. the economy but these things do not really matter to the very people who come and infuses who are islamic elements what what is there are two things first they are worried about this menace this islamic terrorist menace that has they have exaggerated they have created to some extent and exaggerated and they cannot get over it frankly and it's just really not part of our society we do not think about their day and night is just not part of our culture i was inside and no knowledge is just a hold on the other point i have here is that is that the other thing that was in israel and this is a major major issue didn't bring it up sometimes straightforward but this is what

it is they are worried that if the muslim brotherhood in egypt take over the market and the world renegotiate camp david if you know in fact let's go over it all together so they are worried about their ally israel they are worried a bit about this foreign policy interest but they are not at all worried about the needs and the desires and the interests of the people but they wouldn't come straight forward and say that it is this is this is in fact what is happening lisa you want to jump in go right ahead lisa go ahead no that's absolutely absolutely untrue it's about terrorism it's about extremism and has nothing to do with israel it has nothing to do with us and has everything to do with the people of these countries who went out onto the streets who risked their lives who are continuing to risk their lives it's about the daughters and the sisters but just just the other day i read a report about the judges who are in wheelchairs where about the. other than this is if you cared about them if you need your head and listen listening in to hear him but this half of this question was asked and what they answered the question p.

is a fluke is that humanity has so much about these people and why did you fund military regime why did you fund the military regime in egypt and who funded all sorts of queer up three games in the middle east for so many years why did you give the egyptian army one point three million dollars a year for what see for the daughters and sons of egypt you really care about them that much that you would be arming the very people who have been have been posing as as the defenders of the egyptians but in reality they have been in a crashing course with the egyptian people ok your i want to go to you know i was going to post in here israel was brought up here and i want i don't want to talk about directly by israel because what i might arab democracy here but there are people that would say and you might call them cynics is that the only thing the west is particularly interested in is in democratic change in the arab world is make sure their progress that's what they want they don't really care about anything else because ramses pointed out for decades dictators were supported because they were friends of the west so no matter what the outcome is that it's

not about democracy it's about western influence still ahead. well this is one perspective the western influence or. this part or by this. huge transformation but i would say actually two point here the one is that at the very beginning of the uprising in egypt tunisia other places israel was not on the actually on the table it was not an issue israel it started. later on we have. disagreements about. saving gas to israel. after the whole debate within egypt about the can they get now i would like to say here. i think something that is important to this discussion we should look at various perspectives here a it's not that one party in egypt including the muslim brotherhood will gain at

the end of the day the one hundred percent they won't get from the cake so yes the army most probably will transfer power to an elected government but they will play a significant role behind the scenes this is obvious to the egyptian army really connected with the united states with the peace with israel so i think that concerning the peace treaty your commitments to the peace in general i do not predict. this commitment but three and this is the most important change is that an elected government in egypt surfing the voices of criticism an end here and resentment against israel's policy and this would bring to the table much more aggressive egyptian policy told israel without risking. neglecting commitment their general commitment to the peace with israel so

let me let me run through. on this one because it's an interesting point and interesting point here i think again you know western powers have been so involved in the region and people would call it a neo colonial experiment it's coming to an end are this is really what's at issue here is that these countries that are going through this transition whatever that transition we want to call it is going to have eventually their own foreign policies and this is something that really shakes up the work we haven't seen that in the post-war period go ahead. we know very well through so many public opinion polls that have been taken in recent years how do our ups actually feel about about israel about us foreign policy about the completion of iraq about all of these things we know for a fact how they feel and we know that if these these future governments in the group presenting the opinion of the masses then we know that there is going to be

a problem here for the u.s. it is going to be a very serious problem for israel as well and this is why this is why there's a major game underway here and which the u.s. and nato are trying to hijack the arab revolution to ensure that the outcomes are as if you go and as likable to us foreign policy as possible and they are not as as as mentioned too aggressive towards israel i think the outcome of this game will determine a real deal but from what i see especially especially in egypt and in tunisia it's going to be a democracy for the people and by the people and it's not about bread and it's not about food it's about the size of the egyptian people how they really will have these themselves and their relationship in value it's not at all lisa. jump in. that's that's completely that completely wishful thinking what we have said from the beginning and the arab spring is that we have not seen it with being an anti-american movement or an anti israel movement we didn't see american flags

being burned on the street we didn't see israeli flags being burned on the street and that was a very positive sign that this is a grassroots movement it's about nationalism and you know what as soon as those whatever to government takes form in the next stage they will use exactly those sentiments be anti-american sentiment be anti israel sentiment to rally the people around the flag it was done in iran three thirty years ago it will be done again if the smartest move the government can do to rally and unite the people the common goal at this point with the people is nation building the common goal of the new government will be anti israel anti us anti west sentiments mark my words your him when he says well democracy is very scary for you isn't it. you reply to that lisa i was saying this is what democracy real democracy is very scary for people like lisa because you are going to produce what you would perceive as anti american but by the way are we not anti americans egyptians are not anti americans egyptians are anti the very policy that the us has instituted in their country they want to see

that change change those policies and believe me you will see egyptians not being anti americans it's all ok you're in a fight if i go back to you in boston it is what it will be as this group continues here we're talking about independent foreign policies in our i mean would not be better for what some people call mystic we call the peace process between the palestinians and israel because israel would have more of a stake in making a peace with the palestinians and then you take the issue off the table well i understood from you that this world is not the issue here in this program so just what do you see what i mean really i mean it is very clear we don't make it very clear here is that it lisa is saying you know it's going to be anti-american and it's going to be anti israel but if israel has this moment this opportunity can make a peace process real then they get their security in the house people's interest rate i mean and and that shows if these countries would have have a genuine foreign policies that are independent where people would actually support

their government in having a peace process itself all through the region go ahead. ok so first i would say that i don't think that. the elected government will automatically reflect. i would say an aggressive and blunt foreign policy toward the united states i think they would be much more criticizing of the american policy and especially more criticizing of israel but the more important theme here is also that when we raise the issue of israel israel is not like you know a remote player so heavily depends on what israel will do or perceive about the arab spring or more specifically about him egyptian. government who would live to maybe rephrase articles in the camp david agreement now in israel we have a right wing coalition this right right wing coalition do not interested at this

point in progress in the peace process with the palestinians especially because for . the arab spring presents a threat they see they are of supreme court process of them across this nation as a huge threat coming in the direction of israel and they trying to defuse this fred just by. buying some time. this manipulative pull see there. is basically. doing with the american administration here and we thought there was. going to jump in here we've run out of time here we'll see what happens when the arabs go to the ballot box many thanks to my guest today in boston los angeles and in seattle and thanks to our viewers for watching us the marchese next time and remember our struggles.