it seems to me just like in the transition in st the i remember the sports field just programs in greece where the tools economy. on the back and what you are to do is look at the top stories the u.s. charges to reyes with allegedly plotting to kill the saudi arabian ambassador to washington as part of a major terror attack on american officials say they are committed to holding iran accountable but iran rejects the escalations calling them a joke. abbas and israel struck a long awaited prisoner swap deal that will see george soldier go actually freed in exchange for over a thousand palestinians charlie has been held captive for five years. a seven year

sentence for ukraine's former prime minister for alleged abuse of power linked to gas contracts with russia sparks public outrage harsh criticism from moscow the u.s. and e.u. . the russian premier is meeting the chinese leader in beijing on a visit to boost cooperation and balance out the financial and political dominance of the west the first days of the more prudent retreat set up for an agreement on energy talks and. the headlines coming your way peter lavelle's cross talk show where he asks his guests whether the arab spring will be followed by an american one and whether protests can change the u.s. joined a debate show right now on r t. clay. live . in

the studio. to. blow in welcome across town peter lavelle call it what you wish a major political tipping point or woodstock without music a respected the occupy wall street demonstrations continue to find traction all across the u.s. can these days of rage be translated into meaningful political change. can. start. to cross talk the occupy wall street movement i'm joined by jason del dando in philadelphia is an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists in washington we have kevin zeese he's a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org and in los angeles recross attorney cats he's a tea party organizer and

a radio talk show hosts gentlemen cross-talk rules and if it means you can jump in anytime you want but first musher to walk us through what's been going on at wall street well events are still unfolding peter and the dismal statistics that reveal a floundering u.s. economy the occupy wall street movement continues to gain momentum across the country and trying their fourth week of protests condemning corporate hurried government inefficiency and growing income inequality have even our own door cement of president barack obama i think people are frustrated and you know the protesters are giving voice to a more broad based frustration about our financial system works. what started as a rally against america's corrupt democratic process has turned into an organized collective call for social justice that employs the same tactics as its ideological alternative the tea party movement experts say it is now a force to be reckoned with if unions and

a growing number of democrats now expressing at least qualified support full of protesters occupy wall street is starting to look like an important event but might even eventually be seen as a turning point with the u.s. unemployment rate hovering at nine point one percent and the growth rate just above one percent it is only reasonable that a populist movement should emerge to galvanize appropriate policy response but as president obama scrambles to pass his jobs bill and the labor department states their hundred three thousand jobs were added in september the picture is still bleak fourteen million americans officially unemployed more than two million of them have given up looking atop the jobs crisis propelling the movement is flagrant income inequality the washington post published an analysis showing that middle class income has dropped by ten percent since the one nine hundred seventy s. while executive pay has increased four fold and that pay is being driven further out by pure benchmarking all this means come re-election obama could be looking to

preside over an economy teetering on recession set against the backdrop of a global economic meltdown a pretty frightening picture their future thank you very much for that question all right tony i'm going to go to you because i was going to the person who got up early just at this program so i thank you for being here tell me what you think is the spirit of the arab spring come to washington come to wall street or are the protesters just a bunch of anarchists. where's the difference the spirit of the arab spring is a violence violence action there's no way to look at the arab spring from the eyes of the protesters or the eyes of the people putting down the protesters to say that it wasn't violence it was extremely violent extremely bloody it still is just take a look at syria if occupy wall street actually wants to identify itself as van jones has tried to do as the are american autumn to go with the arab spring then yes indeed they're admitting i would like the reality that they are in favor of a violent violent action it's something we should all be very wary of ok kevin and

a lot of people let me jump in your compatriots in your hand this is cross our crack i respond to that absolutely. first of all the occupy wall the of the occupy wall street social movement is nonviolence people have put out a declaration saying we need to nonviolence there's been no acts of violence whatsoever in terms of the connections between occupy wall street and they are springing there's a deep desire for democracy that actually representative of the people actually spawns to the once in needs of everyday people that is what this the social one is about and to clarify this social movement is targeting of the corporate dominance right that is the key factor here corporate dominance and you say what is this corporate dominance we'll get some basic facts that's not in society we have forty million people there out of what's not what's not the case. it's not the case it's not the case when you have disclaimers on websites that say we want free college education we want to get paid even if we don't work those things are nothing to do

with corporations those things have to do with a socialist or statist agenda you have to at least be honest about well it's about in the field and by the way when you allow yourselves when you allow yourself to be associated with the van jones van jones is calling the calls for a connection to an arab spring just like michael moore is you're allowing yourself . to he's not really you and this is you have to respond there's not hence there are los angeles girls there's like fantasizing reality doesn't exist van jones is not part of the star of movement he's a he's a democrat he believes in elected democrats the occupy movement is independent of both parties and the obama's the obama and the democrats and raisers there will be very sad to see that were we protesting them as well because we see them as part of the crony capitalist corrupt economy that has resulted in four hundred people have you as much world as one hundred fifty four million not because they're smarter or work harder but because they are politically connected and essentially bribing

through campaign donations the the tea party is not our alternative we don't see ourselves. when we started this six months ago we started organizing in washington d.c. six months ago for this before the occupy movement and wall street store we embraced and supported the are going to wall street but we started earlier because we saw a need to find a way for citizens to develop power our goal is to shift the power of the people and the corporate rule corporate rule does affect the cost of college corporal doesn't put our students in the greatest debt they've ever been in they're paying a college debt that is equal the mortgage i first paid when i got to law school there they are coming into a job market that's absolutely terrible these kids are in the streets because they are being treated poorly by this economy this economy is corrupt except for the top one percent that's what he calls of ourselves the bottom nine percent and in fact we have people from the ron paul movement that are fed our freedom plaza vote because they agree with us on crony capitalism corrupting the economy they agree with us that the empire economy of eleven hundred military bases an outpost around

the world is not good for the united states it's not good for our national security it's not going for sure that it's not good for our economy we need at least move the power of corporations that's the issue right tony jump in sure go ahead jump in the issue is that you're not opposed to crony capitalism and by the way who wouldn't who wouldn't be opposed to breaking the law you're opposed to capitalism that's the progress now you're opposed to how do people you're actually wrong about what they are and you think it should just be reading a lot about this is what you believe all right because they say the look on your own words let me let me go to jason jensen yes because i see here doing very good jason here j. let's always allow you to make such a sense or is allowed now that makes up stuff ok oh no he's going to go right next to james give him a way of nonsense the problem i just saw i love i love this concept of cross talk but it's not going to extremes are you jason err i mean if it's a vote for or against capitalism but it's pretty fair to say that capitalism i

guess if we can all understand in the same way is not working for a lot of people in the us. that's right it's not true. i completely agree with that if you if you look at if you look at the american social system not just as an economic system as a social system the one key factor here is that our system privileges profit before people again a privilege of profit before people if you look at basic basic statistics you have three and a half million people are homeless we have fourteen million people that are jobless he have nearly fifty million people without health care insurance you have another forty six million americans living below the poverty rates and you look at the bank bailouts million dollar bonuses and we have a political system a political system that is bought and sold by wall street right this is not necessarily about capitalism or non capitalism is that a different social system they say it's about capitalism or not capitalism is a false virus or force the economy instead it's about creating the you're going over say sheen within this country as well as around the world alone around the

world that would that that includes people's voices that have been systematically more generalized and excluded from the larger discussion what do we want as everybody's people and it happens the capital so be it if it happens to be something else then so be that as well it's not about one or the other is that creating something of a difference ok can go to exactly right what we're in the here is the participatory democracy versus concentrated wealth and it's not just in government it's in the economy it's in the media it's in a lot of major institutions and what we use we want to see power shift to the people want to talk about a democratized economy that does not mean a non capital economy means people having more control and more influence for example mean more employees own businesses more employee own co-ops those are still capitalist but they're beyond the big finance capitalism that we currently see there is the middle wall street we favor community banks so rather than money being sent to wall street it's kept in our community where people have community you know

the community bank kind of ward and discussed what's the the key word should investments go we talk about health care health care is something that is because of expense you. can't do it as an individual you know one one prescription could bankrupt you one one one one treatment can bankrupt you you need to have a group system that works and so what we are is evidence based we are not to us obviously based capitalist any caps we look at what works and we advocate for what works and we have people working on this and it's not just one person's idea we are practicing this the market size form of decision making in our own in our own look at the page where we go to the market to get are we going to bring the money going to tell here tony there is there is this claim out there that the u.s. government does more for big businesses and corporations bails them out but doesn't bail out the average american so is the government too friendly to corporations and not friendly enough to the average guy. let's take a look at the evidence evidence based as i believe kevin was saying the tea party movement isn't in favor of the bailout so i created websites before obama took

office saying no bailouts created videos on the subject there's no such thing as too big to fail you can't go against the free market save the free market that is a myth you can't spend your way into prosperity as for kevin's idea about evidence let's talk about the democrats and the occupy wall street movement the d. triple c. the democratic congressional campaign committee has a page on its website a petition to get signatures in favor of occupy wall street you think you're running away from the democrats the democrats are co-opting you they own you they want to be your own desire to reassure you and they are more and more every single day own has no way to i want to ask you another from those on the track in the audience was really want us because they fear origin and you asked me who is on the our energy and time magazine the only system capitalism is the only system on the face of the earth that allows people to live to the moments of their happiness nothing else works is a right gentlemen i'll jump in here and this is a crazy desire to go to assure yourself to ensure it will continue our discussion

on the campaign against wall street state authorities. to take. it seriously and discover its p.c. . communicate with. test yourself and become free. see what nature can give you on alt. the longest big game hunting history. he was trying to stall and they didn't know.

what sprung the traps they laid for him. on the radio we have the surge squawks around the. always from the always missing. one shot turns. out the global drug industry's godfather became the most want to trophy the world's patsy hunter's. great times and parties. welcome back to crossfire computor lavelle to mind you were talking about the protest against wall street. q.

ok jason i go back to you on on your website i noticed you have a phrase the earlier life goal was to change the world without taking power is this what this movement is doing as well is that their goal. well i'm not entirely sure about that first of all that phrase i borrowed that from another political author by the of john holloway that phrase is popular about five hundred years ago in terms of my political beliefs yes i do think that is an appropriate way to go about political change the words can change the world without real scribing certain power structures and i'm not here to speak for everyone within this movement but i do think that is a fairly common sentiment to one degree or another with within this movements can change the world without taking power in other words can change society and change the economics change the culture and change our way of life without reason scribing particular power structures ok kevin i mean a lot of people look at this movement here and it's very interesting but without any really strong organization how it's going to really achieve what it wants to do

i mean there are so many different goals out there seems to be even more than you think also just huge discontent but it is certain point you have to organize and get behind certain policies and just move it move ahead and i mean either you make a choice of being a little party or you know be the left wing of the root of the democratic party i mean like the analog of the tea party what i'm saying is that the sentiments are out there but where is your traction where do you ultimately come to get some kind of critical mass. we're not going to be co-opted like the tea party was were not to let a club for growth candidates not call themselves tea party candidates that's what a republican and done to the tea party but we do agree with what tony said the democrats are trying to co-opt us and we are fighting prevent that we are very clearly independent we're telling you we were saying that van jones does not speak for us he's not part of us electing democrats is not our goal we are starting to form organizations and this is really a long term effort our goal is quite clear shift power of the people and corporate rule and people can understand what those words mean they need to study english a little more closely and corporate rule shift power the people and what we're

doing is developing organization around issues that are affected by that every issues affected by court rule because it's and it's ensconced and self in all aspects of our allies and we have a lot to untangle there and you know where we're doing it we have committees on fifteen different issues that are coming out of their polls will be discussed in our in our symbolised and discussed online discussed with other occupy movement we're going to double foundation this movement that we see as a long term effort independent of both parties criticizing both parties and independent media to develop to support us and in the long run if we need to we will create independent electoral organizations that challenge both parties but we're not ready for that yet so at this stage we are building and in moving that will challenge both parties and tell you democrats to stay out they see a lot of energy with us they see a lot of strength of us they have no energy they have no strength they've turned off most americans as other republicans they want to try to capture energy we're not let them do it we're going to stay independent ok tell me do you see the this movement is an analog i mean ideologically different obviously in a different time on the other end of the spectrum to what the tea party is. well

first of all to kevin's point i only hope you're reject what the democrats are trying to do and the co-opting there is no doubt that when you know the movement started those first few days in september the whole nonviolent conversation was absolutely true and you could see them talking about it it's the people who have decided to jump on board who have those loudest voices van jones michael moore roseanne barr now and a couple others pushing extremely violent rhetoric and that's what people are see those are good for you if you're rejecting those people i'm absolutely a little bit earlier in rejecting those people when you michael reagan was and are talking about bringing back the good team and some people to reeducation he's knows that health care is a community a lot of which he's a comedian is. analogous jason clay jumping to the arab spring go ahead jump in i was right there for as i believe those are metaphors that i believe those of metaphors bring to our audience it is not on how to say i was saying was there be there or here i carry guns and president ok so they're really thinking about to

take out the guillotine so you really believe that they're actually asking us to take back and you'll see do you really believe that of course he answered no he was you are you really was not you peter of course not we need i think you can see into this see who agree with her no what i'm saying she had who was i say she's sick hillary has said yes she's a comedian back to get in for a while jon stewart's again these are comedians ok i do to if you take it very literally here the people who are coming down to say well these are not saying that you will have your own reason most people away can i go around about that i just didn't care if it was nationally tim tim was not funny is people bringing guns to presidential events that's not funny and that was not that was not rhetoric that was reality any rhetoric about free energy guilty or eating the rich is rhetoric we are if you look at our front page of our car over two thousand and eight or we have a non violent place just anyone who recommends voluntary work we've already thrown people out of our of our of our camera because they were discussing you know

fighting back in the police came to rest. we're not interested in their kind of approach we've thrown those kind of people out we are nonviolent within not a lot of the only way to challenges that you know the government has so many weapons and we'd be outgunned every they're going to approach and we lose a civilian of the american people we're taking a nonviolent approach to push for people gaining power we studied how this is occurred and go to the einstein student read about nonviolence and how regimes change that's the model we're using we're seeking that you know you can really injections violence you can really just as violent that was violently gyptian in egypt and it was my gorica you know if i do you mind if i make one more point you keep pushing egypt was violent egypt was mubarak and his thugs people defend themselves against that but they also were the violence came from was the regime in power that was going on what i always say on there always saying no to that i jason i want to jason was saying that you jason philadelphia jason are you could tell me where you are your thoughts on the coverage of this movement in the united states

now because well maybe a small number of tea partiers show up today they get huge coverage of the expression like on fox but when you have hundreds and thousands of people it seems the coverage is very different or is very dismissive do you agree or disagree with that. well first of all there are a million ways to cover any story. and much of the media at least at the very beginning much of the media was focused on the hippie dippie it's the white guys this and that if you go down there actually the occupy wall street movement is a little very less of knowledge is that people think that's the first thing they realize second and then you are saying oh there's no clear message yes there's a very clear message right there's a very clear message that corporate dominance corporate rule must and we must try to figure out a way to reinstill our democracy that is responsive to the wants and needs every day people it's pretty clear if you look at the actual movement the the knesset is the movement itself the action is the message it only takes a few seconds sit down actually analyze what that movement is about what that action is about it's about occupying space at wall street what is wall street

watching is the epicenter of the corporate world again is the epicenter of the some volley as well as literally that is why people are there indefinitely as well reclaiming that space is that enough is enough space with alternative practice is very true is jesus i guess the only message that's very it's very it's very the message of the message and the other thing the other thing i want to tell you about i mean i've been actually pleasantly surprised by the corporate media coverage and we start to over two thousand live in doubt or we emphasize the independent media and if you look at our media page of a lot of the media covering us we also say that everybody who comes has to consider themselves the media because we believe in democratize we do we teach people how to use their social networks to become a newspaper or magazine we teach because i use their i phones to become a t.v. station to do live streaming so we are trying to build that from the bottom of a new kind of media but we've been very pleasantly surprised by the media coverage to see from the corporate media something we did not expect and i think what they're one of the media guys who taught me that got this i mentioned my surprised

he said that well we're all facing the same kind of stresses everyone else's we're part of the ninety nine percent of media is shrinking. jobs are being cut. insurance and retirement plans are green. they're being held back they feel like they're under financial stress as well and that's what's uniting this movement and really i would welcome the tea party come and discuss this with us because we're not we don't see ourselves antagonistic we all are suffering the same economic insecurity anger at the corruption of washington anger at the corruption you have in our do you know very based on well you know one of the you know well you know i was there so he would discuss an evidence base and when i was doing this we did an evidence based way not your shouting style but an evidence based way what really can well this is not what you have seen i will die while i'm talking the way i did so i had to show you how it is raised going to make an actual man and now if we want to talk about evidence based and you want to talk about what you're doing to occupy wall street if you take a look from the outside looking in it looks like a bunch of people who don't care about the land who are willing to abuse the

business is around them and deficit on police cars that's the evidence base that's going to use our hospitals in the street and get a job that's ridiculous tracery that you that that is centrally i'm not going to get it right it is all things i didn't think you did that's the kind of the soldiers' lives is why it's always the. big cat is why your shrink you have in your heart is not going anywhere if that's what you're talking about here too because it's all i've been saying all respond in really is getting a word in edgewise it's kind of silly in the republican party to be part of what you're talking about engage in the conversations about what you're talking about you have to at least be honest about what you're about you're not going to get the tea party to favor a concept where everyone gets paid for doing nothing we don't accept that as a value we believe in capitalism we believe in the free market nobody sees keno when hearing that government shouldn't get what you are and wall street said you should keep let jason jump and jason go ahead go for well first of all first of all

do we actually live in a free market society last time i looked as though it was there you were just corporations are the richest banks on the face of the planet they're getting bailouts so it's communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor we do not live in a free market society that's a myth right and sort of if we've never lived in the know this already reporting the story this hour with the privilege of the rich all right tony do you agree or disagree with that. i do i agree with the conversation about class warfare of course not do i believe that people should know that you know where you are going to be my dear i believe in crony capitalism and breaking the law of course not do i believe that corporations employ millions of people and give them a better way of life yes i do ok jason i want to go to you we're almost out of time is this really a test of democracy in the united states because we talk about capitalism but it's about participation isn't it yes one hundred percent i would say although is this movement is a rejection of corporate dominance it's also an embrace of direct democracy people have a deeper political desire to actually participate and democratic decision making

process seems it's about directed knoxy about reclaiming our democracy read the farming our democracy re practicing our democracy in a way that a response of each of our wants needs and desires ok and you tony let me give you the last twenty seconds go ahead the problem there is that we are not a direct democracy in the founding fathers knew better we're a constitutional republic that way we don't have model rules we can change l.s.i. change again but in the face of the system have been occupied again just as you guys got to figure out when out all right gentlemen would run on the now very severe edge of the interstate you very much we will run out of time many thanks my guess again philadelphia washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember rastafarians. can.

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