yeah. right now at three thirty pm here in the russian capital with all your headlines now the u.s. charges two iranians with allegedly plotting to kill the saudi arabian ambassador to washington as part of a major terror attack american officials say they are committed to holding iran accountable but toronto rejects the accusations calling them a joke. the russian crimea is meeting the chinese leader in beijing on a visit to boost cooperation to balance out the financial and political dominance of the west on the first day a lot of sort of important agreements on pensions. and israel

strike a long awaited prisoner swap deal that will see jewish soldier gilad schalit freed in exchange for over one thousand palestinians charlatan being held captive for the past five. or seven year sentence for ukraine's former prime minister for alleged abuse of power linked to gas contracts with russia sparks public outrage and harsh criticism all the way from moscow to the u.s. and even. ok from the headlines here and i'll see straight into crosstalk next it's a pivot and he's asking his a cross-talk guests whether the arab spring will be followed by an american one and where the protests can change the u.s. you can join the debate show right now we're not. please. liz.

can. start. blowing welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle call it what you wish a major political tipping point or would stop without music it was suspected the occupy wall street demonstrations continue to find traction all across the u.s. can these days of rage be translated into meaningful political change. in the streets. to cross talk the occupy wall street movement i'm joined by jason del cando in philadelphia is an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists in washington we have kevin zeese he's a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org and in los angeles we cross to tony katz he's a tea party organizer and

a radio talk show host gentleman cross talk reason if i could means you can jump in anytime you want but first marcia to walk us through what's been going on at wall street the immense are still unfolding theater and the dismal statistics that reveal a floundering u.s. economy the occupy wall street movement continues to gain momentum across the country and trying their fourth week the protests condemning corporate greed government inefficiency and growing income inequality have even earned a president barack obama i think people are frustrated and you know the protesters are giving voice to a more broad based frustration about our financial system works. what started as a rally against america's corrupt democratic process has turned into an organized collective call for social justice that employs the same tactics as its ideological alternative the tea party movement experts say it is now a force to be reckoned with but unions and

a growing number of democrats now expressing at least qualified support for the protesters occupy wall street is starting to look like an important event but might even eventually be seen as a turning point with the u.s. unemployment rate hovering at nine point one percent and the growth rate just above one percent it is only reasonable that a populist movement should emerge to galvanize appropriate policy response but as president obama scrambles to pass his jobs bill and the labor department states that one hundred three thousand jobs were added in september the picture is still bleak fourteen million americans officially unemployed more than two million of them have given up looking at top the jobs crisis propelling the movement is flagrant income inequality the washington post published an analysis showing that middle class income has dropped by ten percent since the one nine hundred seventy s. while executive pay has increased four fold and that pay is being driven further up by pure benchmarking all this means come re-election obama could be looking to

preside over an economy teetering on recession set against the backdrop of a global economic meltdown a pretty frightening picture there peter thank you very much for that question right there tony i'm going to go to you because i was going to personally got up early yesterday's program so i thank you for being here tell me what you think is the spirit of the arab spring come to washington come to wall street or the protesters just a bunch of anarchists. where's the difference the spirit of the arab spring is a violence violent action there's no way to look at the arab spring from the eyes of the protestors of the eyes of the people putting down the protesters to say that it was in violence it was extremely violent extremely bloody it still is just take a look at syria if occupy wall street actually wants to identify itself as van jones has tried to do as the are american autumn to go with the arab spring then yes indeed there is meeting of like the reality that they are in favor of a violence violent action it's something we should all be very wary of ok kevin and

a lot of people let me jump in your book a.j. so you're hearing this is across our crack i respond to that absolutely. first of all the occupy wall the other the occupy wall street social movement is nonviolence people have put out a declaration saying we are committed nonviolence there's been no acts of violence whatsoever in terms of the connections between occupy wall street and the arab spring there is a deep desire for democracy is actually representative of the people actually spawns to the once in needs of everyday people that is what this is social is a balance and to clarify this social movement is targeting of the dominance right that is the key factor here corporate dominance and you say what is this corporate dominance look at some basic facts that's not in society you have forty million people there out of what's not what's not the case. it's not the case it's not the case when you have disclaimers on websites that say we want free college education we want to get paid even if we don't work those things are nothing to do with

corporations those things have to do with a socialist or statist agenda you have to at least be honest dialogue on the field and by the way when you allow yourselves when you allow yourself to be associated with the van jones then jones is calling the calls for a connection to abstaining just like michael moore is you're allowing yourself. to deal with the truth he's not serious because you have to respond there's not hands but i are los angeles girl so there's like fantasizing reality doesn't exist banjo's is not part of the star movement he's a he's a he's a democrat he believes in electing democrats the occupy movement is independent of both parties and if you're bombers obama and the democrats and bracers they're going to be very sad to see that were we protesting them as well because we see them as part of the crony capitalist corrupt economy that has resulted in four hundred people have used much wealth as one hundred fifty four million not because they're smarter or work harder but because they are politically connected and

socially bing through campaign donations the new tea party is not our alternative we don't see ourselves. when we started this six months ago we started organizing in washington d.c. six months ago for this before the occupy movement and wall street store we embraced and supported the are going to wall street but we started earlier because we saw a need to find a way for citizens to develop our our goal is to shift the power of the people and corporate rule corporate rule does affect the cost of college corporate rule doesn't put our students in the greatest debt they've ever been in they're paying college that is equal the mortgage i first paid when i got to law school there they had coming into a job market that's absolutely terrible these kids are in the streets because they are being treated poorly by this economy this economy is corrupt except for the top one percent that's what he calls the ourselves the nine nine percent and in fact we have people from the ron paul movement that are fed our freedom plaza that because they agree with us on crony capitalism corrupting the economy they agree with us that the empire economy of eleven hundred military bases and outposts around the

world is not good for the united states it's not good for our national security it's not good for sure that it's not good for our economy we need it was who've the power of corporations that's the issue right tony jumpin issue go ahead jump in the issue is that you're not opposed to crony capitalism and by the way who wouldn't who wouldn't be opposed to breaking the law you're opposed to capitalism that's the progress not euros denied through people you're actually wrong about they are and you think it should just be reading a lot about this is what you believe all right the only fellow they say the look on their own or in the new economy to just a suggestion because they see the air blowing they go to jason here jay leno is alive you may see the same stories aloud now that makes up stuff ok oh you know he's going to go right on the name calling and they say i'm not going to the problem hijack and so on i love i love just concept of cross talk but it's not going to extremes are you and jason here i mean it's a for or against capitalism but it's pretty fair to say that capitalism i guess we

can all understand in the same way is not working for a lot of people in the us. that's right it's not true. complete with that if you if you look at if you look at the american social system not just as an economic system as a social system the one key factor here is that our system privileges profit before people get a privilege of profit before people if you look at basic basic statistics you have three and a half million people are homeless fourteen million people that are jobless you have nearly fifty million people without health care insurance you have another forty six million americans living below the poverty rates right and you look at the bank bailouts million dollar bonuses and we have a political system a political system that is bought and sold by wall street's all right this is not necessarily about capitalism or non capitalism is about creating a different social system they say it's about capitalism or not capitalism is a force of virus a false dichotomy instead it's about creativity it's going overseas and within this

country as well as around the world as well as around the world that would that includes people's voices that have been systematically more generalized and excluded from the wider discussion what do we want as everybody's people and it happens the capital so be it and it happens to be something else then so be that as well it's not about one or the other is about creating something equally difference ok can engage i did exactly right what were in the bill that all of here is the participatory democracy versus concentrated wealth is not just the government it's in the economy it's in the media it's in a lot of majors or touche and what we do is we want to see power shift to the people want to talk about a democratized economy that does not mean any non-capital economy it means people having more control and more influence for example being more employees own businesses more employee own co-ops those are still capitalist but they're beyond the big finance capitalism that we currently see there is the middle wall street we favor community banks so rather than money being sent to wall street is kept in our community where the people the community or the community bank can have ward and

discuss what's the that you worship investments go we talk about health care health care is something that is because of expense you. can't do it as an individual you know one one prescription could bankrupt you one one one one treatment can bankrupt you you need to have a group system that works and so what we are is evidence based we are not philosophically based capitalist any caps we look at what works and we advocate for what works and we have people working on this and it's not just one person's idea we are practicing this the market size form of decision making in our own in our own ok if you're patient we go to the market together we go to the brink of me going to tell me here tony there is there is this claim out there that the u.s. government does more for big businesses and corporations bails them out but doesn't bail out the average american so is the government too friendly to corporations and not friendly enough to the average guy. let's take a look at the evidence evidence based as i believe kevin was saying the tea party movement isn't in favor of the bailout so i created websites before obama took

office saying no bailouts created videos on the subject there's no such thing as too big to fail you can't go against the free market to save the free market that is a myth you can't spend your way into prosperity as for kevin's idea about evidence let's talk about the democrats and the occupy wall street movement the d. triple c. the democratic congressional campaign committee has a page on its website a petition to get signatures in favor of occupy wall street you think you're running away from the democrats the democrats are co-opting you they own you they want to be watching this right to reassure you and they are more and more every single day own has nothing to do with we ask you another program as a track and you want the result i want us because they see our energy they want as little as i see our energy and time with the things of the only system capitalism is the only system on the face of the earth that allows people to live to the moments of their happiness nothing else works is a right gentlemen i'll jump in and this is a crazy desire to go sure you shall hereafter the actual race will continue our

discussion on the campaign against wall street state party. you. want. to make sure i'm discovering species. communicate with. just yourself and become three. see what nature can give you nothing.

the luck. of the lists . slumped on. the muck. sluggish the slowest some of the some of the balkan magic crosstalk i'm peter lavelle to imagine we're talking about a protest against wall street the mother can

see. ok jason i can go back to you on your website i notice you have a phrase here let your life's goal is to change the world without taking power is this what this movement is doing as well as how terrible. well i'm not entirely sure about that first of all that phrase i borrowed that from another political author i think of john holloway that phrase is popular about five hundred years ago in terms of my political beliefs yes i do think that is an appropriate way to go about political change the words can change the world without real scribing certain power structures and i'm not here to speak for everyone within this movement but i do think that is a fairly common sentiment to one degree or another with within this movements and change the world out taking power in other words can change society and change the economics change the culture and change our way of life without reason scribing particular power structures ok kevin i mean a lot of people look at this movement here and it's very interesting but without

any really strong organization how it's going to really achieve what it wants to do i mean there's so many different goals out there seems to be more than anything else is just huge discontent but it is certain point you have to organize and get behind certain policies and just move it move ahead and i mean either you make a choice of being a little party or you know be the left wing of the root of the democratic party i mean like the analog of the tea party what i'm saying is that the sentiments are out there but where is your traction where do you ultimately come to get some kind of critical mass. we're not going there are cells be co-opted like the tea party was we're not going to let a club for growth candidates now call themselves tea party candidates that's what the republican and under the tea party but we do agree with what tony said the democrats are trying to co-opt us and we are fighting to prevent that we are very clearly independent we're telling it we were saying that van jones does not speak for us he's not part of us electing democrats is not our goal we are starting to form organizations and this is really a long term effort our goal is quite clear shift power of the people and corporate rule and people can understand what those words mean that they need to study

english a little more closely and corporate rule ship our people and what we're doing is developing organization around issues that are affected by that every issue is affected by court because there's and it's ensconced in self in all aspects of our allies and we have a lot to untangle there and you know where we're doing it we have committees on fifteen different issues that are coming out of their polls very we discussed in our in our assemblies then discussed online discuss with other occupy movement we're going to double down day shamisen when we see as a long term effort independent of both parties criticizing both parties independently to develop to support us and in the long run if we need to we will create independent electoral orders ations that challenge both parties but we're not ready for that yet so at this stage we are building and in moving that will challenge both parties and telling the democrats to stay out they see a lot of energy with us they see a lot of strength of us they have no energy they have no strength they've turned off most americans as other republicans they want to try to capture our energy we're not let them do it we're going to stay independent ok tony do you see this

movement is an analog ideologically different obviously in a different time on the other end of the spectrum to what the tea party is. well first of all to kevin's point i only hope you reject what the democrats are trying to do and the co-opting there's no doubt that when you know the movement started those first few days in september the whole nonviolent conversation was absolutely true and you could see them talking about it it's the people who have decided this is jump on board who have those loudest voices van jones michael moore roseanne barr now and a couple others pushing extremely violent rhetoric and that's what people are see those are good for you if you're rejecting those people i'm absolutely a little bit earlier in rejecting those people when you michael reagan was and are talking about bringing back the good team and some people to reeducation sure he knows that health care is a completely out of which he's a comedian is. analogous just encourage him to the arab spring hedge jumping i was right there for as i believe those are metaphors that i believe those of metaphors bring back obviously it is not and how to sincerely saying just to be there to hear

that our guns are president ok so there really thing you've got to take it out to guillotine so you really believe that they're actually asking us take back the guillotine and you really believe that of course he answered no he was you are you believe that you peter great of course not but i mean i think you could you see him start see who agree with her you know what i'm saying she had who as i said she secretly she said yes she said i'm reading that the king was in for a while jon stewart's a few days and are comedians ok i get to if you take it very literal here the people who are coming down to say oh he's a nazi i'm saying that he will have you want to use english people away can i go rant about that i just didn't care if it was not tim tim what was not funny is people bringing guns to presidential events that's not funny and that was not that was not rhetoric that was reality and the rhetoric of those he entered a guilty in or even rich is rhetoric we are if you look at our front page of october two thousand and four we have a nonviolence plus just anyone who recommends voluntary work we've already thrown

people out of our of our. camera because they were discussing you know for the back of the police came to rest. we're not interested in their kind of approach we've thrown those kind of people out we are nonviolent with the non laws the only way the challenges are yet the government has so many weapons and we'd be outgunned it's are going to approach and we lose a simply and of the american people we're taking a nonviolent approach to push for people gaining power we studied how this is occurred and go the einsteins to read about nonviolence and how regimes change that's the model we're using we're seeking that you know you can really injections violence you can really egyptians violent that was violent gyptian egypt. was my baraka you may be my do you mind if i make it one more point you keep pushing egypt was while in egypt was mubarak and his thugs people defend themselves against their but that was where the violence came from was the regime in power that was going on well let me say on their way saying no to that i jason i want to just a little bit i don't think about you jason philadelphia jason are you could tell me

where you are your thoughts on the coverage of this movement in the united states now because maybe a small number of tea partiers show up today to get huge coverage expected like on fox but when you have hundreds and thousands of people it seems the coverage is very different or is very dismissive do you agree or disagree with that. well first of all there are a million ways to cover any story. much of the media at least at the very beginning much of the media was focused on oh it's the hippie dippie it's the white guys this and that if you go down there actually the occupy wall street movement is a little very less some obvious that people think that's the first thing they realize second then you are saying oh there's no clear message yet there's a very clear message right there's a very clear message that corporate dominance corporate rule must end and we must try to figure out a way to reinstill our democracy that is responsive to the wants and needs everyday people it's pretty clear if you look at the actual movement and the knesset is the movement itself the action is the message it only takes a few seconds sit down actually analyze what that movie is about what that action

is about it's about occupying space at wall street what is wall street watching is the epicenter of the corporate world again is the epicenter of the cold war both symbolically as well as a literally that is why people are there indefinitely it's about reclaiming that space is that in the present space with alternative practice is very true is jesus yes that is the message that's very it's very it's very the message of the message and the other thing the other you know i'm going to tell you that on the video i've been actually pleasantly surprised by the corporate media coverage and we start over two thousand live and or we emphasize the independent media and if you look at our media pages a lot of and i mean a covering us we also so that everybody who comes as they consider themselves the media because we believe in democracy as we do we teach people how to use their social networks to become a newspaper or magazine we teach because i use their i phones to become a t.v. station and do live streaming so we are trying to build that from the bottom up a new kind of media but we've been very pleasantly surprised by the media coverage to see from the corporate media something we did not expect and i think what they

are and what one of the media guys who talk to me that about this i mentioned my surprise he said well we're all facing the same kind of stress as everyone else's we're part of the ninety nine percent of media is shrinking. jobs are being cut. insurance and retirement plans are green. they're being held back they feel like they're under financial stress as well and that's what's uniting this movement and really i would welcome the tea party come and discuss this with us because we're not we don't see ourselves into our news that we all are suffering the same economic insecurity anger at the corruption of washington anger at the corruption you have in the larger you know very well based on well you want to do with the you know what i'm saying is that i would discuss an evidence based on what is generated as we did an evidence based way and not your shouting style but an evidence based way what really can well say not for you that's. the way i did so i had to show you raised right on a can actual man now if we want to talk about evidence based and you want to talk about what you're doing to occupy wall street if you take

a look from the outside looking in it looks like a bunch of people who don't care about the land who are willing to abuse the businesses around them and deficit on police cars that's the evidence base that's going to use our hospitals not streets get a job that's ridiculous tracery that you that that is saying let's send the we are not going to do what's right in this whole thing language and. that's the kind of the soldiers' lives is why it's always the. big cat is why your shrink you have in your party is not going anywhere if that's what you're talking about if you visit so i've been saying all responded and no one's getting a word in edgewise it's kind of silly in the republican party to be part of what you're talking about or engage in the conversations about what you're talking about you have to at least be honest about what you're about you're not going to get the tea party to favor a concept where everyone gets paid for doing nothing we don't accept that as a value we believe in capitalism we believe in the free market don't receive kito when you're saying that government shouldn't get what you are a wall street journal said you should keep let us in jumpin jason go ahead well for

well first of all first of all do we actually live in a free market society last time i looked as though it was that you were just corporations in the richest banks on the face of the planet they were getting bailouts so it's communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor we do not live in a free market society that's a myth right and sort of we've never live in the middle of this already free market was always privilege of the rich all right tony do you agree or disagree with that . i do i agree with the conversation about class warfare of course not do i believe that people should go execute away their women really my dear i believe in crony capitalism and breaking the law of course not do i believe that corporations employ millions of people and give them a better way of life yes i do ok jason i want to go to you we're almost out of time here is this really a test of democracy in the united states because we talk about capitalism but it's about participation isn't it yes one hundred percent i would say although is this movement is a rejection of corporate dominance it's also an embrace of direct democracy he will

have a deep political desire to actually participate and democratic decision making process it's about directive moxy and the reclaiming our democracy redefining our democracy re practicing our democracy in a way that a response to each of our wants needs and desires ok and we tony let me give you the last twenty seconds go ahead the problem there is that we are not a direct democracy in the founding fathers knew better we're a constitutional republic that way we don't have mob rule we can change. but it was a success to have an occupy changes you guys got to figure that one out all right gentlemen we've run of the now very severe educational sake you very much we will run out of time many thanks to my guest today in philadelphia washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time remember. any.

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