from the headlines. whether the arab spring will be followed by an american one and where the protests can change the us you can join the debate show right now. anything.

below in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle call it what you wish a major political tipping point or woodstock without music in respect of the occupy wall street demonstrations continue to find traction all across the u.s. can these days of rage be translated into meaningful political change. to cross-talk the occupy wall street movement i'm joined by jason del dando in philadelphia he's an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists in washington we have kevin zeese he's a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org and in los angeles we cross to tony katz he's a tea party organizer and a radio talk show host gentleman cross talk rose in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but first marcia to walk us through what's been going on at wall street well events are still unfolding peter and the dismal statistics that

reveal a floundering u.s. economy the occupy wall street movement continues to gain momentum across the country and trying their fourth week the protests condemning corporate greed government inefficiency and growing income inequality have even earned the endorsement of president barack obama i think people are frustrated and. the protestors are giving voice to a more broad based frustration. about our financial system what started as a rally against america's corrupt democratic process has turned into an organized collective called for social justice that employs the same tactics as its ideological alternative the tea party movement experts say it is now a force to be reckoned with with unions and a growing number of democrats now expressing at least qualified support for the protesters occupy wall street is starting to look like an important event but might even eventually be seen as a turning point with the u.s.

unemployment rate hovering at nine point one percent and the growth rate just above one percent it is only reasonable that a populist movement should emerge to galvanize appropriate policy response but as president obama scrambles to pass his jobs bill and the labor department states that one hundred thirty thousand jobs were added in september the picture is still bleak fourteen million americans officially unemployed more than two million of them have given up looking atop the jobs crisis propelling the movement is flagrant income inequality the washington post published an analysis showing that middle class income has dropped by ten percent since the one nine hundred seventy s. while executive pay has increased four fold and that pay is being driven further by pure benchmarking all this means come re-election obama could be looking to preside over an economy teetering on recession set against the backdrop of a global economic meltdown a pretty frightening picture there peter thank you very much for that russia all right tony i'm going to go to you because i always go to the person who got up

early is for this program so i thank you for being here tell me what you think is the spirit of the arab spring come to washington come to wall street or are the protesters just a bunch of anarchists. where is the difference the spirit of the arab spring is a violent violent action there's no way to look at the arab spring from the eyes of the protestors or the eyes of the people putting down the protesters to say that it wasn't violence it was extremely violent extremely bloody it still is just take a look at syria if occupy wall street actually wants to identify itself as van jones has tried to do as the our american autumn to go with the arab spring then yes indeed they're admitting like the reality that they are in favor of a violent violent action it's something we should all be very wary of ok kevin a lot of people let me jump in here jason this is cross can i respond to that absolutely. first of all the occupy or the of the occupy wall street social movement is nonviolence people have put out

a declaration saying we we are committed nonviolence there's been no acts of violence whatsoever in terms of the connection between occupy wall street and they are spring there is a deep desire for democracy that actually representative of the people actually spawns to the once in needs of everyday people that is what this is about and to clarify this social movement is targeting of the corporate dominance right that is the key factor here corporate dominance and you say well what is this corporate dominance we'll get some basic facts that's not in society you have forty million people there are what's not what's not the case tony it's not the case it's not the case when you have disclaimers on websites that say we want free college education we want to get paid even if we don't work those things are nothing to do with corporations those things have to do with a socialist a statist agenda you have to at least be honest about well it's not on the field and by the way when you allow yourselves when you allow yourself to be associated

with van jones van jones is calling the calls for a connection to an arab spring just like michael moore is you're allowing yourself . to the truth is not free speech and this is you have to respond there's not hence there are los angeles girls there's like fantasizing reality doesn't exist van jones is not part of the star movement he's a he's a he's a democrat he believes in electing democrats the occupy movement is independent of both parties the obama's the obama and the democrats embrace as they're going to be very sad to see that were we protesting them as well because we see them as part of the crony capitalist corrupt economy that has resulted in four hundred people have as much wealth as one hundred fifty four million not because they're smarter or work harder but because they are politically connected and essentially bribing through campaign donations the the tea party is not our alternative we don't see ourselves. when we started this six months ago we started organizing in washington d.c. six months ago for this before the occupy movement and wall street store we embraced

and supported the occupy wall street but we started earlier because we saw a need to find a way for citizens to develop our our goal is to shift the power of the people and corporate rule corporate rule does affect the cost of college corporate rule doesn't put our students in the greatest debt they've ever been in they're paying a college debt that is equal the mortgage i first paid when i got to law school there they had coming into a job market that's absolutely terrible these kids are in the streets because they are being treated poorly by this economy this economy is corrupt except for the top one percent that's what he calls the ourselves the bottom ninety nine percent and in fact we have people from the ron paul movement that are fed our freedom plaza that because they agree with us on crony capitalism corrupting the economy they agree with us that the empire economy of eleven hundred military bases and outposts around the world is not good for the united states it's not good for our national security it's not going for sure that it's not good for our economy we need to

elude the power of corporations that's the issue right tony jump in shoe jumping the issue is that you are not opposed to crony capitalism and by the way who wouldn't who wouldn't be opposed to breaking the law you're opposed to capitalism that's the progress not heroes and i do know people and you're absolutely right about there are and you think it should just be having a lot about this is what you believe all right do you get a little they say the look in your own words let me let me go to jason jack shit because j.c. they are going to go to jason here jay leno is allowed to exist a same time he's a loud mouth that makes up stuff ok you know he's going to let all the name calling him a way of nonsense the problem so i love i love this concept of cross talk but it's not going to extremes are you jason err i mean if it's for or against capitalism but it's pretty fair to say that capitalism i guess if we can all understand in the same way is not working. for a lot of people in the us. that's right not true. completely with that if you if

you look at if you look at the american social system not just as an economic system as a social system the one key factor here is that our system privileges profit before people again a privilege of profit before people if you look at basic basic statistics you have three and a half million people are homeless forty million people that are jobless have nearly fifty million people without health care insurance you have another forty six million americans that are living below the poverty rates right when you look at the bank bailouts million dollar bonuses and we have a political system a political system that is bought and sold by wall street right this is not necessarily about capitalism or non capitalism is about creating a different social system they say it's about capitalism or not capitalism is a false virus a false dichotomy instead it's about creating the economy number sation within this country as well as around the world as well as around the world that would that that includes people's voices that have been systematically more generalized in excluded from a wider discussion what do we want as everybody's people and it happens to be

capital so be it if it happens to be something else then so be that as well it's not about one or the other is about creating something the difference ok can go there is actually what we're in the bill battle of here is participatory democracy versus concentrated wealth is not just in government it's in the economy it's in the media it's in a lot of major institutions and what we do is we want to see power shift to the people want to talk about a democratized economy that does not mean the non careful economy means people having more control and more influence for example mean more employees own businesses more employer own co-ops those are still capitalist but they're beyond the big finance capitalism that we currently see this doesn't have a wall street we favor community banks so rather the money being sent to wall street is kept in our community where the people in the community know the community bank to the board and discuss what's the the key where should investments go we talk about health care care health. is something that is because of it's expense you can't do it as an individual you know one one prescription could

bankrupt you one one one one treatment can bankrupt you you need to have a group system that works and so what we are is evidence based we are not philosophically based capitalist any caps we look at what works and we advocate for what works and we have people working on this and it's not just one person's idea we are practicing this the market size form of decision making in our own in our own ok if you're patient we go to the get together we go to the break i want to go to tony here tony there is there is this claim out there that the u.s. government does more for big businesses and corporations bails them out but doesn't bail out the average american so is the government too friendly to corporations and not friendly enough to the average guy. let's take a look at the evidence evidence based as i believe kevin was saying the tea party movement isn't in favor of the bailout so i created websites before obama took office saying no bailouts created videos on the subject there's no such thing as too big to fail you can't go against the free market to save the free market that is a myth you can't spend your way into prosperity as for kevin's idea about evidence

let's talk about the democrats and the occupy wall street movement the d. triple c. the democratic congressional campaign committee has a page on its website a petition to get signatures in favor of occupy wall street you think you're running away from the democrats the democrats are co-opting you they own you they want to be watching this on the issue of you and they are more and more every single day own has nothing to do when i was living there from hell is on a track and you don't want to lose i want us because they have your energy and you have speculated on the our energy and time little things are the only system capitalism is the only system on the face of the earth that allows people to live to the moments of their happiness nothing else works is a right gentlemen i want to jump in and this is where a desire to go ashore here to tell you after the jury will continue our discussion on the campaign against wall street stay r.t. . if you.

want to. see the picture and discover its beauty. communicate with the wind. test yourself and become free. see what nature can give you on on to. please. do so

so. lucky. lucky. slug the slowest so. the first say hello and welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to mind you were talking about the protest against wall street. mum can see. ok jason i can go back to you on your

website i notice you have a phrase here let your life's goal is to change the world without taking power is this what this movement is doing as well as that their goal. well i'm not entirely sure about that first of all that phrase i borrowed that from another political author but i think of john holloway that phrase is popular about five years ago in terms of my political beliefs yes i do think that is an appropriate way to go about political change the words to change the world without reason scribing certain power structures i'm not here to speak for everyone within this movement but i do think that is a fairly common sentiment to one degree or another with within this movements can change the world without taking power in other words to change society and change the economics change the culture to change our way of life without reason scribing particular power structures ok kevin i mean a lot of people look at this movement here and it's very interesting but without any really strong organization how it's going to really achieve what it wants to do i mean there are so many different goals out there and what seems to be more than anything else is just huge discontent but it is certain point you have to organize

and get behind certain policies and just move it move ahead and i mean either you make a choice of being a little party or you know be the left wing of the of the democratic party i mean like the analog of the tea party what i'm saying is that the sentiments are out there but where is your traction where do you ultimately come to get some kind of critical mass. we're not going to be co-opted like the tea party was were not to lead a club for growth candidates now call themselves tea party candidates that's what the republican and done to the tea party but we do agree with what tony said the democrats are trying to co-opt us and we are fighting prevent that we are very clearly independent we're telling that we were saying that van jones does not speak for us he's not part of us electing democrats is not our goal we are starting to form organizations and this is really a long term effort our goal is quite clear shift power of the people and corporate rule if people can understand what those words mean then they need to study english a little more closely and a corporate rule shift pair of people what we're doing is developing organization around issues that are affected by that every issues affected because it's and it's

ensconced and self in all aspects of our lives and we have a lot to untangle there and you know where we're doing it we have committees on fifteen different issues that are coming out of their polls will be discussed in our in our sample is then discussed online discussed with other occupy them as we're going to help foundation this movement that we see as a long term effort independent of both parties criticizing both parties independent media be developed to support us and in the long run if we need to we will create independent electoral orders ations that challenge both parties but we're not ready for that yet so at this stage we are building and in a van leeuwen that will challenge both parties and telling the democrats to stay out they see a lot of energy with us they see a lot of strength of us they have no energy they have no strength they've turned off most americans as other republicans they want to try to capture our energy we're not let them do it we're going to stay independent ok tony do you see the this movement is and the analog i mean ideologically different obviously in a different on the other end of the spectrum to what the tea party is. well first of all to kevin's point i only hope your object what the democrats are trying to do

and the co-opting there is no doubt that when you know the movement started those first few days in september the whole nonviolent conversation was absolutely true and you could see them talking about it it's the people who have decided to jump on board who have those loudest voices van jones michael moore roseanne barr now and a couple others pushing the extremely violent rhetoric and that's what people are see those are good for you if you're rejecting those people i'm absolutely sure the you're rejecting those people when you michael reagan was and are going to bring back the good team and send people to reeducation attorneys knows that health care is a comedian a lot of which he's a comedian is. analogous jason to jump to the arab spring go ahead jump in i was right there for as i believe those are metaphors that i believe those of metaphors bring that i didn't see in his not and had a serious saying they would be there but what are you going to do you present the evidence ok so they're really thinking about to take you back to guillotine do you really believe that they're actually asking us to take back the guillotine do you

really believe that of course yes or no he was you are you believe that you can't write of course not what i mean i can see him now start see who agreed with her no what i'm saying she had who was i said she. said yes she said to me even back to get in for a while jon stewart's again these are comedians ok i do you take it very literal here the people who are coming down so you know he's not saying i'm saying that he will have you want to he loves people away can i go hands about that i just didn't care if it was not tim tim what was not funny is people bringing guns to presidential events that's not funny and that was not that was not rhetoric that was reality and the rhetoric of those three enter the guillotine or even the rich is rhetoric we are if you look at our front page of october two thousand and four we have a nonviolence plus just anyone who recommends well if we were we've already thrown people out of our of our of our candidate because they were discussing you know for the back of the police came to rest. we're not interested in that kind of approach we've thrown those kind of people out we are nonviolent with the not

a lot of the only way to challenge is that the government has so many weapons and we'd be outgunned if we took any approach and we lose a simply that of the american people we're taking a nonviolent approach to push for people gaining power we've studied how this is occurred if you go to the einstein is to read about nonviolence and how regimes change that's the model we're using we're seeking that you know you can really egyptians violence you can really just as violent that was violent gyptian egypt. was in my garden you may do you mind you mind if i make one more point you keep pushing egypt being well it was a violent egypt was mubarak and his thugs people defend themselves against that but that was where the violence came from was the regime in power that was going on what i will say on their way saying no to that i jason i want to just recently about i knew about you jason philadelphia jason to tell me where you are your thoughts on the coverage of this movement in the united states now because when maybe a small number of tea partiers show up they get huge coverage expression like on fox but when you have hundreds and thousands of people it seems the coverage is

very different or it's very dismissive do you agree or disagree with that. well first of all there are a million ways to cover any story. and much of the media at least at the very beginning much of the media was focused on oh it's the hippie dippie kids it's the white guys this and that if you go down there actually the occupy wall street movement is a little very less so modest than people think that's the first thing they realize second and then you are saying oh there's no clear message yet there's a very clear message right there's a very clear message that corporate dominance corporate rule must end and we must try to figure out a way to reinstill our democracy that is responsive to the wants and needs everyday people it's pretty clear if you look at the actual movement they then message is the movement itself the action is the message and only takes a few seconds sit down actually analyze what that movie is about what that action is about it's about occupying space at wall street what is wall street wall street is the epicenter of the corporate world again is the epicenter of the corporal both symbolically as well as literally that is why people are there indefinitely as

about reclaiming that space is that enough is enough space with alternative practice is very true yes that is the message that's very it's very it's very the message that the message and the other thing the other thing i want to tell you that i mean i've been actually pleasantly surprised by the corporate media coverage and we start to over two thousand live in doubt or we emphasize the independent media and if you look at our media page of a lot of independent media covering us we also so that everybody who comes has to consider themselves the media because we believe in democratized media we teach people how to use their social networks to become a newspaper or magazine we teach because i use their i phones to become a t.v. station to do live streaming so we are trying to build that from the bottom up a new kind of media but we've been very pleasantly surprised by the media coverage you see from the corporate media something we did not expect and i think what they're why one of the media guys who talk to me that about this i mentioned my surprise about it he said well we're all facing the same kind of stresses everyone else's we're part of the ninety nine percent of media is shrinking. jobs are being

cut. insurance and retirement plans or break. they're being held back they feel like they're under financial stress as well and that's what's uniting this movement and really i would welcome the tea party come and discuss this with us because we're not we don't see ourselves antagonistic we all are suffering the same economic insecurity anger at the corruption of washington anger at the corruption you have been there do you know very well based on well you know one of the we're going to do what i want is that i would discuss an evidence based on what is generally regarded an evidence based way not in your shouting style but an evidence based way what really could well see not only led. the way i had to show you raised and i can actually man now if we want to talk about evidence based and you want to talk about what you're doing to occupy wall street if you take a look from the outside looking in it looks like a bunch of people who don't care about the land who are willing to abuse the businesses around them and deficit on police cars that's the evidence base that's not the guys not streams get

a job that's ridiculous straight ridiculous that is saying in the assembly i'm not going to get you out of this whole thing language and makes you an idiot and that's the kind of the soldiers' lives is why it's a. bit kav is why your shrink you have in your party is not going anywhere if that's what you're talking about it to because it's all i've been saying all resulted in no one's getting a word in edgewise it's kind of silly in the republican party to be part of what you're talking about or engage in the conversations about what you're talking about you have to at least be honest about what you're about you're not going to get the tea party to favor a concept where everyone gets paid for doing nothing we don't accept that as a value we believe in capitalism we believe in the free market don't want to see you know what i'm hearing that government shouldn't get what you are and wall street. and you should keep playing jason jumpin jason go ahead well well first of all first of all do we actually live in a free market society the last time i looked as though it was that you were just corporations of the richest banks on the face of the planet they were getting

bailouts so it's communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor we do not live in a free market society that's a myth right and sort of we've never living under the sun reports in the society those are the dear always privilege of the rich all right tony do you agree or disagree with that. do i agree with the conversation about class warfare of course not do i believe that people should go out walking away or that he might do i mean i believe in crony capitalism and breaking the law of course not do i believe that corporations employ millions of people and give them a better way of life yes i do ok jason i want to go to where almost out of time is this really a test of democracy in the united states because we've talked about capitalism but it's about participation isn't it yes one hundred percent i would say although is this movement is a rejection of corporate dominance it's also an embrace of direct democracy people have a deeper political desire to actually participate and democratic decision making process it's about direct democracy and that reclaiming our democracy redefining

our democracy practicing our democracy in a way that a response of to each of our wants needs and desires ok and we tony let me give you the last twenty seconds go ahead the problem there is that we are not a direct democracy in the founding fathers knew better we're a constitutional republic that way we don't have mob rule we can change unless i change in that's a measure of unoccupied dangerousness you guys got to figure that one out all right gentlemen we've run out on our very severe abuse for sake you very much but we have run out of time many thanks to my guest today in philadelphia washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember. you.

washington the charge to iranians for an alleged plot to kill the saudi ambassador to the u.s. . to balance the scales prime minister putin meets the chinese leadership in beijing as the country's. five years ago going home was along the way to deal will see him swap over a palestinian prison. live from the heart of moscow with me welcome to the program washington says.