images and seeing from the streets of canada. trying to corporations the day. very warm welcome this is our tea coming to you live from our studios here in moscow top stories about this washington is charged to radians for an alleged plot to kill the saudi arabian ambassador to the u.s. it's claimed they tried to hire members of a mexican drug cartels are carrying out the attack accusations to iran dismissed as . russia and china strengthen their partnership to punish the economic and political dominance of the west deals with seven billion us dollars in energy trade and high tech industries have been signed as prime minister putin met the chinese leadership in beijing. and an israeli soldier captured by hamas five years ago

could soon be going home in the way the deal will see him swap over a thousand palestinian prisoners over supply proof all detainees will remain in israeli jails. next cross-talk guess whether the arab spring will be followed by an american autumn and whether protests can change the u.s. join the debate right now here on our feet but with more news and often are. lynn. can. start. to feel. lonely and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle call it what you wish

a major political tipping point or woodstock without music in respect to the occupy wall street demonstrations continue to find traction all across the u.s. can these days of rage be translated into meaningful political change. can the started. to cross like the occupy wall street movement i'm joined by jason del cando in philadelphia he's an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists in washington we have kevin zeese he's a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org and in los angeles we cross to tony katz he's a tea party organizer and a radio talk show host gentlemen cross-talk rules and effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but first marcia to walk us through what's been going on at wall street well events are still unfolding peter and the dismal statistics that reveal a floundering u.s.

economy the occupy wall street movement continues to gain momentum across the country and trying their fourth week the protests condemning corporate hurry government inefficiency and growing income inequality have even earned of president barack obama i think people are frustrated and you know the protesters are giving voice to a more broad based frustration about our financial system works. what started as a rally against america's corrupt democratic process has turned into an organized collective call for social justice that employs the same tactics as its ideological alternative the tea party movement experts say it is now a force to be reckoned with and unions and a growing number of democrats now expressing at least qualified support for the protesters occupy wall street is starting to look like an important event but might even eventually be seen as a turning point with the u.s.

unemployment rate hovering at nine point one percent and the growth rate just above one percent it is only reasonable that a populist movement should emerge to galvanize appropriate policy response but as president obama scrambles to pass his jobs bill and the labor department states that one hundred three thousand jobs were added in september the picture is still bleak fourteen million americans officially unemployed more than two million of them have given up looking atop the jobs crisis propelling the movement it's flagrant income inequality and post opposition analysis showing that middle class income has dropped by ten percent since the one nine hundred seventy s. while executive pay has increased four fold and that pays being driven further out by pure benchmarking all this means come re-election obama could be looking to preside over an economy teetering on recession set against the backdrop of a global economic meltdown a pretty frightening picture there peter thank you very much for that question right there tony i'm going to go to you because i always go to the person who got up early just for this program so i thank you for being here tell me what you think

is the spirit of the arab spring come to washington come to wall street or are the protesters just a bunch of anarchists. where's the difference the spirit of the arab spring is a violence violent action there's no way to look at the arab spring from the eyes of the protesters or the eyes of the people putting down the protesters to say that it wasn't violence it was extremely violent extremely bloody it still is just take a look at syria if occupy wall street actually wants to identify itself as van jones has tried to do as the are american autumn to go with the arab spring then yes indeed they're admitting the reality that they are in favor of a violent violent action it's something we should all be very wary of ok kevin people let me jump in your cloak a.j. security this is cross our crack i respond to that absolutely. first of all the occupy wall the of the occupy wall street social movement is nonviolence people have put out a declaration saying we we are committed nonviolence there's been no acts of

violence whatsoever in terms of the connections between occupy wall street and they are disagreeing there's a deep desire for a democracy that actually representative of the people actually spawns to the once in needs of everyday people that is what this social one is about and to clarify this social movement is targeting the word dominance right that is the key factor here corporate dominance and you say what is this corporate dominance look at some basic facts that has not in society not forty million people there out of what's not what's not the case tony it's not the case it's not the case when you have disclaimers on websites that say we want free college education we want to get paid even if we don't work those things are nothing to do with corporations those things have to do with a socialist or statist agenda you have to at least be honest the loads on the field and by the way when you allow yourselves when you allow yourself to be associated with van jones van jones is calling your calls for

a connection to an arab spring just like michael moore is you're allowing yourself to you know what you're saying that really is not serious because if you. are there's not hands. are los angeles there there's like fantasizing reality doesn't exist van jones is not part of the star of movement he's a he's a he's a democrat he believes in electing democrats the occupy movement is independent of both parties and the obama's the obama and the democrats are grazers they're going to be very sad to see that were we protesting them as well because we see them as part of the crony capitalist corrupt economy that has resulted in four hundred people have as much wealth as one hundred fifty four million not because they're smarter or work harder but because they are politically connected and essentially bribing through campaign donations the the tea party is not our alternative we don't see ourselves. when we started this six months ago we started organizing in washington d.c. six months ago for this before the occupy movement and wall street store we

embraced and supported the occupy wall street but we started earlier because we saw a need to find a way for citizens to develop our our goals the shift of power the people and the corporate rule corporate rule does affect the cost of college corporate rule doesn't put our star students in the greatest debt they've ever been in they're paying a college debt that is equal the mortgage i first paid when i got to law school there they are coming into a job market that's absolutely terrible these kids are in the streets because they are being treated poorly by this economy this economy is corrupt except for the top one percent that's what we cost of ourselves of on nine nine percent and in fact we have people from the ron paul movement that are fed our freedom plaza that because they agree with us on crony capitalism corrupting the economy they agree with us that the empire economy of eleven hundred military bases and outposts around the world is not good for the united states it's not good for our national security it's not going for sure that it's not good for our economy we need it was you have the power of corporations that's the issue right johnny jump in shoe go ahead jump

in the issue is that you are not opposed to crony capitalism and by the way who wouldn't who wouldn't be opposed to breaking the law and you're opposed to capitalism that's the progress not euros decide who people you're actually rather got they are and you think it should just be reading a lot about this is what you believe all right do you have a little holiday say the look in your own words let me let me get your suggestion and it would be much easier to go to jason here jay leno is allowed to do exactly the same stories aloud now that makes up stuff ok oh no he's going to go right next to him clearly i may say i'm not going to the problem hygiene and so on i love i love this concept of cross talk but it's not going to extremes are you jason or i mean if it's for or against capitalism but it's pretty fair to say that capitalism i guess if we can all understand in the same way is not working for a lot of people in the us. that's right not true. completely with that if you if you look at if you look at the american social system not just as an economic

system as a social system the one key factor here is that our system privileges profit before people get a privilege of profit before people if you look at basic basic statistics you have three and a half million people are homeless we have forty million people that are jobless he have nearly fifty million people without health care insurance you have another forty six million americans living below the poverty rates right and you look at the bank bailouts and million dollar bonuses and we have a political system a political system that is bought and sold by wall street right this is not necessarily about capitalism or non capitalism is about creating a different social system they say it's about capitalism or not capitalism is a false virus a false dichotomy instead it's a doc really it's going overseas within this country as well as around the world alone around the world that would that that includes people's voices that have been systematically more generalized and excluded from a wider discussion what do we want as everybody's people and it happens the capital so be it if it happens to be something else then so be that as well it's not about

one or the other is about creating something of a difference ok can go there exactly what we're in the bill battle of here is the participatory democracy versus concentrated wealth and it's not just in government it's in the economy it's in the media it's in a lot of major institutions and what we use we want to see power shift to the people want to talk about the democratized economy that does not mean a non capital economy means people having more control and more influence for example mean more employees own businesses more employer own co-ops those are still capitalist but they're beyond the big finance capitalism that we currently see this doesn't have a wall street we favor community banks so rather than money being sent to wall street is kept in our community where people are community you know the community kind of ward and discussed what's the the key word should investments go we talk about health care health care is something that is because of expense you. can't do it as an individual you know one one prescription could bankrupt you one one one

one treatment can bankrupt you and you need to have a group system that works and so what we are is evidence based we are not philosophically based capitalist any caps we look at what works and we advocate for what works and we have could people working on this and it's not just one person's idea we are practicing this the market size form of decision making in our own in our own ok you case where we go to the market together we go to the brink of going to tell you tony there's there is this claim out there that the u.s. government does more for big businesses and corporations bails them out but doesn't bail out the average american so is the government too friendly to corporations and not friendly enough to the average guy. let's take a look at the evidence evidence based as i believe kevin was saying the tea party movement isn't in favor of the bailouts i created websites before obama took office saying no bailouts created videos on the subject there's no such thing as too big to fail you can't go against the free market to save the free market that is a myth you can't spend your way into prosperity as for kevin's idea about evidence

let's talk about the democrats and the occupy wall street movement the d. triple c. the democratic congressional campaign committee has a page on its website a petition to get signatures in favor of occupy wall street you think you're running away from the democrats the democrats are co-opting you they own you they want to be watching this want to reassure you and they are more and more every single day own has nothing to do with you and others are from those on the track and your audience is what is really honest because they have your religion and it was clearly on the our energy and time goes into the only system capitalism is the only system on the face of the earth that allows people to live to the moments of their happiness nothing else works is a right gentlemen a legendary this is a crazy desire to go sure you shall hereafter the jury will continue our discussion on the campaign against wall street straight r.t. . if.

you can. please discoveries buzy. communicate with. test yourself and become free. see what nature can give you on auntie. please. please.

mum. slum. slug can see the sofa in. the same. welcome back to crossfire i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the protests against wall street. mum keep the slowest so. ok jason i can go back to you on your website i notice you have a phrase here let your life's goal is to change the world without taking power is this what this movement is doing as well as i can recall. well i'm not entirely

sure about that first of all that phrase i borrowed that from another political author but i think of john holloway that phrase is popular about five years ago in terms of my political beliefs yes i do think that is an appropriate way to go about political change the words can change the world without reason scribing certain power structures now i'm not here to speak for everyone within this movement but i do think that is a fairly common sentiment to one degree or another with within this movements can change the world out they can power in other words can change society can change the economics change the culture and change our way of life without reason scribing particular power structures ok kevin i mean a lot of people look at this movement here and it's very interesting but without any really strong organization how is it going to really achieve what it wants to do i mean there are so many different goals out there and what it seems to be even more than you think also is just huge discontent but it is certain point you have to organize and get behind certain policies and just move it move ahead in it and i mean either you make a choice of being a little party or you know be the left wing of the root of the democratic party i

mean like the analog of the tea party what i'm saying is a well the sentiments are out there but where is your traction where do you ultimately come to get some kind of critical mass. we're not going there are cells be co-opted like the tea party was we're not going to let a club for growth candidates not call themselves tea party candidates as some of the republican i've done to the tea party but we do agree with what tony said the democrats are trying to co-opt us and we are fighting prevent that we are very clearly independent we're telling you we were saying that van jones does not speak for us he's not part of us electing democrats is not our goal we are starting to form organizations and this is would be a long term effort our goal is quite clear shift power of the people and corporate rule if people can understand what those words mean and they need to study english will work closely and the corporate rule ship our the people and what we're doing is developing organization around issues that are affected by that every issue is affected by quarterly because it's and it's ensconced themself in all aspects of our allies and we have a lot to untangle there and you know where we're doing it we have committees on fifteen different issues that are coming out of their polls are we discussed in our

in our sample has been discussed online discussed with other occupy movements were going to be able to and they should there's a moment that we see as a long term effort independent of both parties criticizing both parties independent media to develop to support us and in the long run if we need to we will create independent electoral directions that challenge both parties but we're not ready for that yet so at this stage we are building and of a movement that will challenge both parties and telling the democrats to stay out they see a lot of energy with us they see a lot of strength of us they have no energy they have no strength they've turned off most americans as other republicans they want to try to capture energy we're not let them do it we're going to stay independent ok tony do you see this movement is an analog ideologically different obviously and a different tone on the other end of the spectrum to what the tea party is. well first of all to kevin's point i only hope your object what the democrats are trying to do and the co-opting there is no doubt that when you know the movement started those first few days in september the whole nonviolent conversation was absolutely

true and you could see them talking about it it's the people who have decided to jump on board who have those loudest voices van jones michael moore roseanne barr now and a couple others pushing extremely violent rhetoric and that's what people are seeing those are good for you if you're rejecting those people i'm absolutely thrilled that you're rejecting those people when you like originally was and are talking about bringing back the good team and some people to reeducation attorneys knows that health care is evil otherwise she's a comedian isn't she analogous jason you could say the arab spring go ahead jump in i was right there for as i believe those are metaphors that i believe those of metaphors bring that audience in is not an adversary saying she was there that i carried guns on the president ok so they're really thinking about to take a shot to kill a team so you really believe that they're actually asking is take back the guillotine do you really believe that of course he said no he was a large that you can't write of course not what i mean i can see him to see who

agreed with her you know what i'm saying she is who as i said she secretly she has said yes she's a comedian that begins even for a while jon stewart's against these rules and our comedians ok i get to if you take it very literal here the people who are coming down so you know he's a nazi i'm saying that he will have you want to teach english people ok can i go about that i just didn't care if it was national tim tim what was not funny is people bringing guns to presidential events that's not funny and that was not that was not rhetoric that was reality and the rhetoric of those he entered a guilty or even rich is rhetoric we are if you look at our front page of october two thousand and one or we have a nonviolence person just anyone who recommends well if we were we've already thrown people out of our of our. camera because they were discussing you know fighting back in the police came to arrest. we're not interested in that kind of approach we've thrown those kind of people out we are nonviolent we're going non law is the only way the challenges are you the government has so many weapons and we'd be outgunned if we took any approach and we lose a civilian by the american people we're taking

a nonviolent approach to push for people gaining power we've studied how this is occurred and go the einsteins do we have our nonviolence and how regimes change that's the model we're using we're seeking that you know you can really injections violence you can really just violence that was violent gyptian in egypt and it was my camera if you mind even if i could make one more point you keep pushing egypt being was violent egypt was mubarak and his thugs people defend themselves against that but they also were the violence came from was the regime in power there was a young woman sitting on the nail right on the way saying no to that i jason i want to just recently about jason philadelphia jason i have to tell me where you are your thoughts on the coverage of this movement in the united states now because well maybe a small number of tea partiers show up there you get huge coverage a expression like on fox but when you have hundreds and thousands of people it seems the coverage is very different or is very dismissive do you agree or disagree with that. well first of all there are a million ways to cover any story. and much of the media at least at the very

beginning much of the media was focused on the hippie dippie kids it's the right guys this and that if you go down there actually the occupy wall street movement is a little very less knowledge is that people think that's the first thing they realize second and then you are saying uh there's no clear message yet there's a very clear message right there's a very clear message that corporate dominance corporate rule must end and we must try to figure out a way to reinstill our democracy that is responsive to the wants and needs everyday people it's pretty clear if you look at the actual movement they the message is the movement itself the action is the message and only takes a few seconds sit down actually analyze what that movie is about what that action is about it's about occupying space at wall street what is wall street watching is the epicenter of the corporate world again is the epicenter of the whole world both symbolically as well as literally that is why people are there indefinitely as about reclaiming that space is that in the business space with alternative practice is very true yes that is the message that's very it's very it's

a very good message that the message and the other thing the other thing i want to tell you about i mean i've been actually pleasantly surprised by the corporate media coverage and we start to over two thousand live in doubt or we emphasize the independent media and if you look at our media pages a lot of the media covering us we also see that everybody who comes as a consider themselves the media because we believe in democracy we teach people how to use their social networks to become a newspaper or magazine we teach because i use their i phones to become a t.v. station and do live streaming so we are trying to build that from the bottom of a new kind of media but we've been very pleasantly surprised by the media coverage you see from the corporate media something we did not expect and i think what they're one of the media guys who are talking about this i mentioned my surprise but he said well we're all facing the same crowd stresses everyone else's we're part of the ninety nine percent of media shrinking. jobs are being cut. insurance and retirement plans are green. they're being held back they feel like they're under financial stress as well and that's what's uniting this movement and

really i would welcome the tea party come and discuss this with us because we're not we don't see ourselves as antagonistic we all are suffering the same economic insecurity anger at the corruption of washington anger at the corruption you have been there do you have years based on well you know i was there with the and when i was there so i would discuss an evidence based on what is there a risk you did an evidence based way not your shouting style but an evidence based way what really could well this is not for you that's not. the way i try to tell you what is raised so i shall make a natural man now if we want to talk about evidence based and you want to talk about what you're doing to occupy wall street if you take a look from the outside looking in it looks like a bunch of people who don't care about the lands who are willing to abuse this is around them and deficit on police cars that's the evidence base that's not us are not the guys not streets get a job that's ridiculous tracery did last far that is centrally i'm not exactly what's happened this whole thing language and you see in india and africa and it's

only inches wide and it's always the smart stop and shrink big cat is why your shrink you have in your heart is not going anywhere if that's what you're talking about it's too busy trying to say are you talking or i was getting a word in edgewise it's kind of silly in the republican party the tea party to be part of what you're talking about or engage in the conversations about what you're talking about you have to at least be honest about what you're about you're not going to get the tea party to favor a concept where everyone gets paid for doing nothing we don't accept that as a value we believe in capitalism we believe in the free market don't receive kito when you're saying that government shouldn't get what you are a wall street choice and you should keep playing jason jumpin jason go ahead or for the first of all first of all do we actually live in a free market society the last time i looked as though it was that you were just corporations of the richest banks on the face of the planet they were getting bailouts so it's communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor we do not live in a free market society that's a myth right once again we've never lived there has been some reporting on the

status of the dear always privilege the rich the rich only do you agree or disagree with that. a draw i agree with the conversation about class warfare of course not do i believe that people should know where you're going to agree on that i believe in crony capitalism and breaking the law of course not do i believe that corporations employ millions of people and give them a better way of life yes i do ok jason i want to go to you we're almost out of time here is this really a test of democracy in the united states because we talk about capitalism but it's about participation isn't it yes one hundred percent i would say although is this movement is a rejection of corporate dominance it's also an embrace of direct democracy people have a deep political desire to actually participate and democratic decision making process yes it's about directive moxy and the reclaiming our democracy redefining our democracy re practicing our democracy and away the responses to each of our wants needs and desires ok and we can only let me give you the last twenty seconds go ahead. the problem there is that we are not

a direct democracy the founding fathers knew better we're a constitutional republic and that way we don't have mob rule we don't change and that's amazing success have been occupied again just as you guys got to figure out one out all right gentlemen we're running out very secure and to be natural sake you very much you will run out of time many thanks my guest today in philadelphia washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember. wealthy british scientists are. time to. market. scandal find out what's really happening to the global economy for

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