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following welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle call it what you wish a major political tipping point or would stop without music irrespective of the occupy wall street demonstrations continue to find traction all across the u.s. can these days of rage be translated into meaningful political change pls take the slim. to cross talk the occupy wall street movement i'm joined by jason del dando in philadelphia he's an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists in washington we have kevin zeese he's a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org and in los angeles we cross to tony katz he's a tea party organizer and a radio talk show host gentlemen cross-talk rules and effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but first musher to walk us through what's been going on at wall street elements are still unfolding here and the dismal something states

that reveal a floundering u.s. economy the occupy wall street movement continues to build momentum across the country and trying their fourth week that protest corporate greed government inefficiency and growing income inequality have even earned a president barack obama i think people are frustrated and. you know that the protesters or giving voice to a more broad based frustration about how our financial system works what started as a rally against america's corrupt democratic process has turned into an organized collective call for social justice that employs the same tactics as its ideological alternative the tea party movement experts say it is now a force to be reckoned with but unions in a growing number of democrats now expressing at least qualified support for the protesters occupy wall street is starting to look like an important event but might even to be seen as a turning point with the u.s.

unemployment rate hovering at nine point one percent and the growth rate just above one percent it is only reasonable that a populist movement should emerge to galvanize appropriate policy response but as president obama scrambles to pass his jobs bill and the labor department states that one hundred three thousand jobs were added in september the picture is still bleak fourteen million americans officially unemployed more than two million of them have given up looking that's not the jobs crisis propelling the movement is flagrant income inequality the washington post published an analysis showing that middle class income has dropped by ten percent since the one nine hundred seventy s. while executive pay has increased four fold and that pays being driven further out by clear benchmarking all this means coming election obama could be looking to preside over an economy teetering on recession set against the backdrop of a global economic meltdown a pretty frightening picture their future thank you very much for that question all right tony i'm going to go to you because i always go to the person who got up the

earliest for this program so i thank you for being here tell me what you think is the spirit of the arab spring come to washington come to wall street or are the protesters just a bunch of anarchists. where's the difference the spirit of the arab spring is a violence violent action there's no way to look at the arab spring from the eyes of the protesters or the eyes of the people putting down the protesters to say that it wasn't violence it was extremely violent extremely bloody it still is just take a look at syria if occupy wall street actually wants to identify itself as van jones has tried to do as the are american autumn to go with the arab spring then yes indeed they're admitting i would like the reality that they are in favor of a violence violent action it's something we should all be very wary of ok kevin people let me jump in your cloak a.j. security this is crossfire right i respond to that absolutely. first of all the occupy wall the of the occupy wall street social movement is nonviolence people

have put out a declaration saying we we are committed nonviolence there's been no acts of violence whatsoever and in terms of the connections between occupy wall street and they are spring there is a deep desire for democracy is actually representative of the people who actually sponsor to the once in needs of everyday people that is what this new social movement is about us and to clarify this social movement is targeting of the over dominance right that is the key factor here corporate dominance and you say well what is this corporate dominance we'll get some basic facts that's not in society not you know forty million people they're out of what's not what's not the case tony that this is not the case it's not the case when you have disclaimers on websites that say we want free college education we want to get paid even if we don't learn those things are nothing to do with corporations those things have to do with a socialist or statist agenda you have to at least the honest dialogue is on the field and by the way when you allow yourselves when you allow yourself to be associated with the van jones van jones is calling somebody calls for connections

with arab spring just like michael moore is you're allowing yourself to you know that was actually he's not serious and this is you have to respond there's not hence but i are los angeles girl so there's like fantasizing reality doesn't exist banjo's is not part of the star of movement he's a he's a he's a democrat he believes in electing democrats the occupy movement is independent of both parties if you're bomber's the obama and the democrats and grazers they're going to be very sad to see that where we protesting them as well because we see them as part of the crony capitalist corrupt economy that has resulted in four hundred people every as much right as one hundred fifty four million not because they're smarter or work harder but because they are politically connected and essentially bribing through a campaign donations the the tea party is not our alternative we don't see ourselves. when we started this six months ago we started organizing in washington d.c. six months ago for this before the occupy movement and wall street store we embraced

and supported the are going to wall street but we started earlier because we saw a need to find a way for citizens to develop our our goal is to shift the power of the people and the corporate rule corporate rule does affect the cost of college corporal doesn't put our students in the greatest debt they've ever been in they're paying a college that is equal the mortgage i first paid when i got a law school there they are coming into a job market that's absolutely terrible these kids are in the streets because they are being treated poorly by this economy this economy is corrupt except for the top one percent that's what we call us about ourselves the bottom ninety nine percent and in fact we have people from the ron paul movement that are fed our freedom plaza vent because they agree with us on crony capitalism corrupting the economy they agree with us that the empire economy of eleven hundred military bases and outposts around the world is not good for the united states it's not good for our national security it's not going for sure that it's not good for our economy we

need it was who've the power of corporations that's the issue right tony jump in issue go ahead jump in the issue is that you're not opposed to crony capitalism and by the way who wouldn't who wouldn't be opposed to breaking the law you're opposed to capitalism that's the progress not euros and i drew people you're actually wrong about they are and you think it should just be your having to learn about this is what you believe all right do you believe all they say to look in your own words there i mean let me just suggest the chance would be much easier but i'm going to go to jason here jay let's always allow you to stay same time he's allowed now that makes up stuff ok oh no he's going to go right next to include him in the same nonsense the problem so i love i love this concept of cross talk but it's not going to extremes are you jason or i mean if it's for or against capitalism but it's pretty fair to say that capitalism i guess that we can all understand in the same way is not working for a lot of people in the us. that's right it's not true i completely agree with that

if you if you look at if you look at the american social system not just as an economic system as a social system the one key factor here is that our system privileges profit before people get a privilege of profit before people will have basic basic statistics you have three and a half million people are homeless fourteen million people that are jobless we have nearly fifty million people without health care insurance you have another thirty six million americans living below the poverty rates right then you look at the bank bailouts billion dollar bonuses and we have a political system a political system that is bought and sold by wall street right this is not necessarily about capitalism or non capitalism is about creating a different social system they say it's about capital we're not capitalism as a force of virus a false dichotomy instead it's about creating a vehicle you never see within this country as well as around the world alone around the world that we that includes people's voices that have been systematically more generalized and excluded from a wider discussion what do we want as everybody's people and it happened because it

was so be it and it happens to be something else then so be that as well it's not about one or the other is that creating something the difference ok can go there exactly right when the bill battle over here is the participatory democracy versus concentrated wealth and it's not just in government it's in the economy it's in the media it's in a lot of major touche and what we use we want to see power shift to the people want to talk about a democratized economy that does not mean a non careful economy means people having more control and more influence for example mean more employees own businesses more employer own co-ops those are still capitalist but they're beyond the big finance capitalism that we currently see there's the middle wall street we favor community banks so rather than money being sent to wall street is kept in our community where the people the community you know the community the board and discuss what's the the key word should investments go we talk about health care health care is something that is because of expense you. can't do it as an individual you know one one prescription could bankrupt you

one one one one treatment can bankrupt you you need to have a group system that works and so what we are is evidence based we are not philosophically based capitalist any caps we look at what works and we advocate for what works and we have could people working on this and it's not just one person's idea we are practicing the market size form of decision making in our own in our own ok if you're patient we go to the get together we go to the brink of what is going to tell you tony there's there is this claim out there that the u.s. government does more for big businesses and corporations bails them out but doesn't bail out the average american so is the government too friendly to corporations and not friendly enough to be average guy. let's take a look at the evidence evidence based as i believe kevin was saying the tea party movement isn't in favor of the bailout so i created websites before obama took office saying no bailouts created videos on the subject there's no such thing as too big to fail you can't go against the free market to save the free market that is a mess we can't spend your way into prosperity as for kevin's idea about evidence let's

talk about the democrats and the occupy wall street movement the d. triple c. the democratic congressional campaign committee has a page on its website a petition to get signatures in favor of occupy wall street you think you're running away from the democrats the democrats are co-opting you they own you they want to be watching this want to reassure you and they are more and more every single day own has nothing to do with the from the track and you only have the reason i want to because they see our energy they have speculated on the our energy and i'm going to say to the only system capitalism is the only system on the face of the earth that allows people to live to the moments of their happiness nothing else works he's a right gentlemen james harris is a great easy to go to assure yourself to the jury will continue our discussion on the campaign against wall street straight or to. keep.

a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the polls since they have. eaten kids a good chance to try to get books three times to be human experiments to get people to see weeks you will see this. bill. the globe is allegedly trying to censor the local economy and its arcane claims that us financial temple is a little research clambering to maintain our confidence in markets and things not to wants to be seems way to mullins's recess logicians close to collapsing in some time alone for close touch and some fail circlet but again feel level because us

crash seven en mass killing team seriously cause it just isn't enough and three feet from sweden just programs increase the total economy. ok. the.

and you. want to. welcome back to crossfire computer lavelle remind you we're talking about the protest against wall street. ok jason i go back to you on your website i notice you have a phrase here let your life's goal is to change the world without taking power is this what this movement is doing as well is that their goal well i'm not entirely sure about that first of all that phrase i borrowed that from another political author but i think of john holloway that phrase is popular about five hundred years

ago in terms of my clinical beliefs yes i do think that is an appropriate way to go about political change the words can change the world without reason scribing certain power structures now i'm not here to speak for everyone within this movement but i do think that is a fairly common sentiment to one degree or another with within this movements can change or well without taking power in other words can change society and change the economics change the culture and change our way of life with our real scribing particular power structures ok kevin i mean a lot of people look at this movement here and it's very interesting but without any really strong organization how is it going to really achieve what it wants to do i mean there's so many different goals out there and what needs seems to be even more than you can also just huge discontent but it is certain point you have to organize and get behind certain policies and just move it move ahead in an enemy that either you make a choice again or a little party or you know be the left wing of the root of the democratic party i mean like the analog of a of the tea party what i'm saying is a well the sentiments are out there but where is your traction where do you ultimately come to get some kind of critical mass. we're not to be co-opted like

the tea party was were not to let a club for growth candidates now call themselves tea party candidates and some of the republican and under the tea party but we do agree with what tony said the democrats are trying to co-opt us and we are fighting prevent that we are very clearly independent we're telling you we were saying that van jones does not speak for us he's not part of us electing democrats is not our goal we are starting to form organizations and this is really a long term effort our goal is quite clear shift power of the people and corporate rule that people can understand what those words mean and they need to study english a little more closely and corporate rule ship our people and what we're doing is developing organization around issues that are affected by that every issues affecting because it's and it's ensconced and self in all aspects of our allies and we have a lot to untangle there and you know where we're doing it we have committees on fifteen different issues that are coming over the coals are you we discussed in our in our sample is that discussed online discussed with other occupy movements we're going to go there's a movement that we see as

a long term effort independent of both parties criticizing both parties independent media to develop to support us and in the long run if we need to we will create independent electoral organizations that challenge both parties but we're not ready for that yet so at this stage we are building and if and when they will challenge both parties and telling the democrats to stay out they see a lot of energy with us they see a lot of strength of us they have no energy they have no strength they've turned off most americans as other republicans they want to try to capture our energy we're not to let them do it we're going to stay independent ok tony do you see the this movement is an analog ideologically different obviously and a different on the other end of the spectrum to what the tea party is. well first of all to kevin's point i only hope you are jack what the democrats are trying to do and the co-opting there is no doubt that when you know the movement started those first few days in september the whole nonviolent conversation was absolutely true and you could see them talking about it it's the people who have decided to jump on board who have those loudest voices van jones michael moore roseanne barr

now and a couple others pushing extremely violent rhetoric and that's what people are see those are good for you if you're rejecting those people i'm absolutely sure the you're rejecting those people when you like originally was and are talking about bringing back the good team and some people to reeducation attorneys knows that health care is a concrete model she's a comedian is. analogous jason to john kerry and to the arab spring go ahead jump in i was right there for as i believe those are metaphors that i believe those of metaphors bring that audience in is not on how to sincerely say she does appear to be there but i carry guns on a president ok so they're really thinking about to take up the guillotine do you believe that they're actually asking us to take back the guillotine do you really believe that of course he answered no he was who are you doing with that you can't write of course not but i mean i can see him now start see who agreed with her you know what i'm saying she had who was i said she secretly she said yes she said to me and back again with him for

a while jon stewart's again these are comedians ok if you take you take it very literally here the people who are coming down to say oh he's a nazi i'm saying that you will have your own and he loves people way can i go rant about that i just didn't care if it was national tim tim what was not funny is people bringing guns to presidential events that's not funny and that was not that was not rhetoric that was reality any rhetoric of the energy bill teen or even the rich is rhetoric we are if you look at our front page of october two thousand and eight or we have a nonviolence plus trust and he was who recommends well if we were we've already thrown people out of our of our. candidate because they were discussing you know for the back of the police came to rest. we're not interested in that kind of approach we've thrown those kind of people out we are nonviolent we don't know it was the only way to challenge is that your government has so many weapons and we'd be outgunned if we took a new approach and we lose a servant of the american people we're taking a nonviolent approach to push for people gaining power we studied how this is occurred to go the einsteins didn't read about nonviolence and how regimes change

that's the model we're using we're seeking that you know you can really injections violence if you really just as violent that was violent gyptian egypt. was my baraka you may divide you want if i make one more point you keep pushing egypt being was violent egypt was mubarak and his thugs people defend themselves against that but they also were the violence came from was the regime in power they were going on the highways saying no no no right no way saying no to that i jason i want to just simply go back to jason philadelphia jason and to tell me where you are your thoughts on the coverage of this movement in the united states now because well maybe a small number of tea partiers show up today to get huge coverage expression like on fox but when you have hundreds and thousands of people it seems the coverage is very different or is very dismissive do you agree or disagree with that. well first of all there are a million ways to cover any story. and much of the media at least at the very beginning much of the media was focused on alex the hippie dippie kids it's the

white guys this and that if you go down there actually the occupy wall street movement is a little very less i'm obviously people think that's the first thing they realize second and then you're saying oh there's no clear message yet there's a very clear message right there's a very clear message that corporate dominance corporate rule must end and we must try to figure out a way to reinstill our democracy that is responsive to the what's in these everyday people it's pretty clear if you look at the actual movement they the knesset is the movement itself the action is the message and only takes a few seconds sit down actually analyze what that movie is about what that action is about it's about occupying space at wall street what is wall street watching is the epicenter of the corporate world again is the epicenter of the whole world both symbolically as well as literally that is why people are there indefinitely as about reclaiming that space is that enough is enough space with alternative practice is very true says jesus yes that is the message that's very it's very it's very the message of the message and the other thing the other you know i'm going to tell you that our media i've been actually pleasantly surprised by the corporate

media coverage when we start our coverage two thousand live in doubt or we emphasize the independent media and if you look at our media pages a lot of them and i mean the covering us we also so that everybody who comes has to consider themselves the media because we believe in markets are as media we teach people how to use their social networks to become a newspaper or magazine we teach because i use their i phones to become a t.v. station and do live streaming so we are trying to build that from the bottom of a new kind of media but we've been very pleasantly surprised by the media coverage you see from the corporate media something we did not expect and i think what they're one of the media guys who talk to me that got this i mentioned my surprised he said well we're all facing the same grounds for us as everyone else's we're part of the ninety nine percent of media shrinking. jobs are being cut. insurance and retirement plans are green. they're being held back they feel like they're under financial stress as well and that's what's uniting this movement and really i would welcome the tea party come and discuss this with us because we're not we don't see ourselves as antagonistic we all are suffering the same economic

insecurity anger at the corruption of washington anger at the corruption you have and they are your view based on well you. know well you know what is there so you can discuss on an evidence based on what is generally in this region and evidence based way not your shouting style but an evidence based way what really can well i will say to you have seen me with i have i like i told him the way i to have raised prices on a can actual man now if we want to talk about evidence based and you want to talk about what you're doing to occupy wall street if you take a look from the outside looking in it looks like a bunch of people who don't care about the lands who are willing to abuse the businesses around them and decade on police cars that's the evidence base that's going to use our hospitals not students get a job that's ridiculous tracery degree that's far that is centrally i'm not going to do what's right in this altering language and you see in india that's the kind of the social interest lawyer and it's always the small stuff and shrink that cad is why your shrink you have in your heart is not going anywhere if that's what

you're talking about here to visit so i can say i'm a softening or i was getting a word in edgewise it's kind of silly in the republican party to party to be part of what you're talking about or engage in the conversations about what you're talking about you have to at least be honest about what you're about you're not going to get the tea party to favor i concept where everyone gets paid for doing nothing we don't accept that as a value we believe in capitalism we believe in the free market don't receive you know what i'm hearing that government shouldn't get what you are and wall street should get a chance and you should keep playing jason jumpin jason go ahead for well first of all first of all do we actually live in a free market society the last time i looked as though there's very rich is corporations the riches banks on the face of the planet they're getting bailouts so it's communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor we do not live in a free market society that's a myth right and sort of we've never lived there is one of the some reports and studies of there's always privilege of the rich all right tony do you agree or disagree with that. i do i agree with the conversation about class warfare of

course not do i believe that people should go out walking away with women he might do to me i believe in crony capitalism and breaking the law of course not do i believe that corporations employ millions of people and give them a better way of life yes i do ok jason i want to go to you we're almost out of time here is this really a test of democracy in the united states because we talk about capitalism but it's about participation isn't it yes one hundred percent i would say although is this movement is a rejection of corporate dominance it's also an embrace of direct democracy people have a deep political desire to actually participate and democratic decision making processes it's about directed moxy and that reclaiming our democracy redefining our democracy re practicing our democracy in a way that a response of to each of our wants needs and desires ok and we can only let me give you the last twenty seconds go ahead the problem there is that we are not a direct democracy in the founding fathers knew better we're a constitutional republic that way we don't have not ruled we can change unless i

change in that's an educator system of unoccupied james is this you guys got to figure that one out all right gentlemen we've run the now very severe into the interest you very much to have run out of time many thanks my guess again in philadelphia washington and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember rastafarians. kitty. wealthy british scientists such.

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