you're watching artillery kept out of our main headlines cheering the killing of one man while ignoring the deaths of thousands of civilians in libya alice points out the problems of the u.s. media's approach to gadhafi is demise says libya's new rulers also stay quiet on how they're going to rebuild infrastructure destroyed by civil war and intense bombs. plans on saving the euro risk as a crucial meeting of european finance ministers is cancelled ahead of wednesday's e.u. summit is cast doubt over the prospects of a solution being crowned a deepening debt crisis. or a south clash with hundreds of anti demonstrators in a us city of oakland grounds took to the streets to protest the arrests the forcible removal of tents riot squads to gas and bullets and rounds.

and a new study says the u.s. used the secret uranium based weapons in iraq posing congenital illnesses and increases and uncertain this and civilians airports around the new generation of arms was employed by american forces in the taurus battle from new jersey seven years ago. well next cross-talk debate they will have el asks his guests what kind of country libya will become gadhafi own that they too will you. wealthy british style. guide to tirelessly. markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the cause a report on r.t.

. can. start. following the welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle in a spacious beginnings libya's national transitional council has announced the country's liberation from the get go off the dictatorship what kind of country libya will now become is anything but clear would be ruled under islamic law and will the rule of law prevail in the wake of gadhafi is killing and his national unity in illusion with so many factions vying for power. can. start. to draw stock libya's future i'm joined by daniel serwer in washington he's a professor e.o. lecturer at johns hopkins school of advanced international studies also in washington we have paul corning he is a foreign correspondent for the globe and mail and in new york we go to ted rall he

is a journalist political cartoonist and author of the anti-american manifesto all right gentlemen this is cross talk news you can jump in anytime you want to me very much encourage it but first what are libya's prospects moving forward well you as you mentioned in the beginning the road ahead of libya is anything but clear and i dare say it is all because of the close city to play city which has a company and the death of moammar gadhafi as well as the entire league and campaign as the media continues to chew over the coolest details of the deposed leader steps we're taking back to the history of libya's ties with the west. which revealed the democracy and humanitarianism were really on the agenda from a time when gadhafi was branded the mad dog of the middle east to a period when his relations with the west warms and all of the alleged sins were absolved by pricey defense of oil deals this is what senator mccain had to say about libya only two years ago ties between the united states. was true in recent years and not long after libya had established partnerships with

a whole slew of western leaders the libyans rose in defiance of kids off israel and the west flashed the responsibility to protect card and launched a major mission in support of the uprising seven months later the mission is complete the manhunt for qaddafi drawing to a close by these very very balls that the west has helped to arm we came we saw god. now there's much talk about the future that faces libya where there will be able to preserve its domestic unity elect a government that can show itself to be different from the barbarity which has marked the rebels' recent actions and finally avoid being doled out to foreign stakeholders there are very many competing elements within the t.n.c. and different political philosophies i hope those have played out in the democratic way otherwise the alternative is some ghastly descent into war many say it was the hate for qaddafi which coalesced libya's fractious forces perhaps it was for the fear of seeing the country apart but then to see chairman stefan

a village i will promise on sunday tonight will be under the law of sharia and we'll just have to see how conducive to democracy well let's talk about democracy first i'd like to go to ted ted what kind of democracy could you possibly make in libya it is just offered a civil war like this it hardly has any state institutions whatsoever. well obviously anybody who claims to be able to predict the future of this new regime it would just be me telling lies and making up stories but that said you know this is going to be a for medical challenge we're not even really sure if democracy is what the t.n.c. has in mind now that they've taken power and certainly they're precut off the origins suggest that it's not necessarily in the cards but certainly even if they do they are serious about forming a coalition of all the various factions and tribes and political factions that predated the existed during the forty two year reign of more market there's no

telling where this is going to go it is just so hard to cobble together such of vast country and i think a lot of people are unaware of exactly how big libya is and how fractured it is it's not going to be an exact parallel to iraq but i think we can see certain parallels ok how does a country like libya that really has me have really many state functions i mean it's it was all based on one man and his family for forty two years i mean don't they have to work on state building before they start building democracy or can you build a democracy without its you know. no i don't think you can and i think perhaps there's a tendency in. the media and outside observer to kind of see democracy is something that gets installed or built almost overnight in our societies in transition even in the twenty first century that's. called arduous process and at this stage libya needs sort of civic civil society peace.

the beginnings of economic renaissance democracy maybe of peace and it may be slowly growing peace that starts early but that there is no likelihood of an immediate democracy any more than there's a likelihood of an immediately functioning economy this is going to take a long time progress is going to be slow it will be fitful there will be set backs the nightmare scenarios exist as well ok well that doesn't sound very optimistic daniel if i can go to you what do you think about building a democratic state with respecting the rights of all with this alleged it looks very clear from the video that speech has been put on the you tube and elsewhere of the murder of khadafi i mean this is the national transition council getting off to a good footing there. i'm much more hopeful than my colleagues are i've been in libya i've talked with the libyans then i can accept another dictator . i don't think there's any reason why they should accept another dictator it is

a long hard arduous road to democracy but they've laid out a road map in their constitutional framework document the it's much clearer than what had been laid out in tunisia which just successfully held its first elections it's much clearer than what has been laid out in egypt the current leadership has made it clear that it will not run for a future office and frankly libya has vast resources not only the oil gas in the ground but the money in western banks to duffy is going to finance the next regime in libya so there are no guarantees here let me be clear this is a long and arduous road but i think there's a good chance that libya can go down that road it should do it carefully it should do it slowly it shouldn't rush anything but you know the

killing of colorfully from westernised was extremely brutal and murderous and legal as well probably a dream traditional lot for you wanted your leader is all you want is in the legal . i don't think that you can i don't think you can hold or the transitional council responsible for what was brutal. murder and made in fact be a war crime but i mean let's let's be clear here this is this is the end of a conflict and it's pretty clear that. there are lots of the fighting factions who are only barely within the chain of command so i mean i think to focus on without defending what. seems to be a murder and a war crime but to simon how to paint the entire transitional effort with that it's unfortunate it's terrible. in the murder of child care so i would also it's

probably quite convenient isn't it if i go to you ted i mean i guess we won't hear a lot about lockerbie we won't hear a lot about rendition and we won't hear about other things that the bush administration and obama administration had to do with the war on terror but the passage of it's apples and oranges are mainly going to go to this is going to read it will say it's ok let's not forget the role of the united states in this in what essentially was the murder of khadafi after all this was a drop of american drone plane that attacked his convoy alongside a french wall warplane and that piece to it so really this was a joint french nato u.s. murder the fact that he was technically alive that he got out as he scrambled out of his convoy hardly negates the role of the united states in his murder and he would not have been murdered had that airstrike not occurred so this is this is a this goes part and parcel to the assassination of osama bin laden in pakistan you

know the obama administration's enemies have a way of just being disappeared and dumped into anonymous graves and obviously you can't help but ask yourself if there are not a bunch of inconvenient questions that would be asked at a war crimes trial at the hague that perhaps the big powers would rather not see asked what do you think about the poet you could probably be here to do these crimes trial ok paul first and then you can follow her statement and you are tara cleo you one you posed that sort of thing rhetorical all you want you could say you know i doubt he'd still be in power if there hadn't been a united nations security council mandate i mean but but what you're trying to do what you're trying to do is hang on what you're trying to do is so. the entire process by stringing together a bunch of things and saying you know. obama administration is somehow responsible for the deaths of all these people and you can make that argument but

you're not going to find any support for going on it again you know you want to jump in there but i mean a drone plane is not a so i think i think this argument about this calling of of the killing of. the the the military action against his convoy is murder is just nonsense it's not murder in anybody's terms i be glad to see that you don't but don't throw this into the trains are designed you know if you can still drones are designed to kill the nation there was no to clear are designed to limit people and they are military was not at war with libya it was an assassination the use it is like a foreign leader who could have been captured alive. if you want to respond to that and you know. i beg to differ i'll beg to differ on that subject i just don't think there's any sign that there's a war crime involved here i don't think it's murder i think it's it's part of an

ugly process that we call war the murder was in the ambulance so far as i can tell by young libyan and you know maybe he should be he should be held responsible for that but i just don't think that the attack on the convoy is go after the selfish never the big time and i i don't believe anybody will ever prosecuted that way. all right gentlemen we're going to short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if you want.

but i am less struck with the idea of australia you know they are no new zealand no wait until you see the little known series yeah if you want to have sex go and have sex. to. kill. you. feel obliged. to keep the sound of. the an. illegal.

welcome across town here a little too much we're talking about libya after gadhafi. led the k.k.k. the substance of the it. right i'm going to go to go back to paul in washington are the countries awash with arms right now is this a major concern for you as we see some kind of civil society state building going on because you know it's a lot easier to pick up a gun than let it go and plus with being so much done with so many people disenfranchised for so many decades they have power right now and the power in numbers and weapons this is going to take a long time to disarm this country if it's ever going to happen at all yeah no i think that's very true and i think those two elements to. this sort of the fact that everybody in libya is armed. the first one is as you say there's a you know unless people are are satisfied quickly and that's hard to do then it's very easy to bring dissatisfaction people put up with you know shortages of food

and water and electricity and all the rest of it in the middle of the uprising in the rebellion but very very quickly there will be there mans for normality and in the absence of normality in the absence of power in the absence of salaries in the absence of that sort of thing it will be very very easy to have sort of armed factions taking on each other trying to seize think that that's aspect one and that's dangerous enough the second one is a far more difficult. danger to. measure and that is good effie's arsenals included some very modern very sophisticated weaponry in particular thousands maybe as many as twenty thousand surface to air shoulder fired missiles and that of course is the is the. weapon of choice for any radical group anywhere any terrorist organization the ability to take down

civilian airliners and or military aircraft with these shoulder fired weapons is very dangerous. and nobody knows where they are already do you want to jump in there daniel. yes they did a i think it's very important to look at the record here and the record of the national transitional council is that it successfully made arms disappear from benghazi within a couple of months of the revolution there and the way it did that was to was to ensure people security i was in tripoli last month there were a lot of guns on the street but there were also some policemen and the situation was really settling down and went to a big celebration of martyrs square lots of women and children out in the evening for that celebration the way you get rid of the guns in the hands of the public is

to ensure security and i think the n.p.c. has there are a good record on that the question of this. is the most you know it's right on the all right tell you want to jump in there just because we saw the same exact situation in afghan. we saw the same exact situation in afghanistan where. everybody has weaponry certainly it's possible to build a civil society out of a heavily armed society the united states has eight guns for every man woman and child in it and yet you know the streets are not are not running with the blood so clearly it's possible but that said we are talking about it the the basic need for such law in order is one for the new libyan government and that if they can provide that then they're going to be able to move on to the next step which is rebuilding the economy and really building up a political civil society and maybe some form of representative democracy later comes later but you know afghanistan people are still waiting for a law and order ten years after the invasion that's the kind of thing that they

don't want to see in libya planned when do you think nato still has a role here i mean as a result of the united nations security council nine hundred seventy three chose to side in a civil war the national transitional council do you think that it is a national transition council and its current form gets in trouble that nato will continue to support it against the factions that could rise up in the next two weeks or months and libya is like we've all agreed this country is awash with weapons and there's a lot to fight for and one of them is oil. well you know i don't think so i don't actually think there's a nato role there and i think you'd be a mistake of nato thought there was one but i do think there's a role for libya's neighbors and for nations in the area i live is going to need lots of help there's no question that this country is rich and it has the resources to provide. excellent living in a fine economy for its people but that's not going to happen overnight and it's

going to be fundamentally important for other arab nations and european nations and america frankly to be there and be able to provide that kind of everything from technical support as you get oil fields running again to. to perhaps aid in setting up courts and civil society well you know there well you know women for house and you know the safety and trying to build nations around the world and can you give me one example where it works why would work in libya well you know there are places where it works and i'm not just talking about. if you look at places like east timor where frankly the australians took the lead it's slow it takes a long time people need to sort of dig in for a generation they need not to be seen is interfering they need to help you need to not do the kind of things like we've seen in haiti where i outside countries bail out every five years and leave another mess and i agree there it wasn't it if there

was nobody i seriously it is it would be you know twenty rigs in the words doesn't work there are plenty of examples where doesn't work but there's no point being just sort of miserably pessimistic either you can look at the place where he has worked why should be pessimistic there's so much oil there go ahead ted i mean it's worth fighting hard to. it's it's well it's hard to go run being pessimistic you're usually right when you are so it's worked out for me for a long time. unfortunately you know i think that you know going back to the original question i think that the nato coalition would not hold together for that for a mission that would involve siding with one faction in a civil war it's one thing to to do what they did at this point to try to see to let the t.n.c. seize power essentially replaying what happened in the fall of two thousand and one in afghanistan when the when nato essentially served as the defacto air force for the northern alliance which allowed the northern alliance to seize kabul and take

over the country this is exactly what they did in two in two thousand and eleven in libya but we're not going to see that seems easy that's linear that's something that the french and the italians and the americans can get behind but once the spoil for the oil starts it's going to be a whole different matter ok let's bring up another issue that a lot of people talk about is not easy answers all right. you can imagine i want to talk about these lawmakers a card that everyone likes to bring up. in connection style kind of except maybe you'll go ahead. i think the interesting thing about the state building process in libya is that it's being led by libyans who haven't passed for nato help who will accept some help from the europeans for america countries from the united states but they are the ones designing is their pushing program and to me this makes an enormous difference it seems to me with libyans in the lead you have a much better chance for success than if this were an external intervention ok i

mean well how do you feel about the members like me how long will that last economically ok well i was i'd like to look at really the transition council itself because i mean there's still a lot of really murky figures there i mean people that are don't have very good attitudes towards the american cia because of rendition ties alleged ties to al qaeda and what you know will be the flavoring of islam in the country it moves forward i mean we heard on sunday they know there's going to be a lot of peppering of that maybe that's just to keep people on board but i mean is this building a democracy or you know these people going to be elected i mean where is the vetting process here i mean khadafi is gone fine but where do we go from here ok what do you think about that. the very process is called the elections in a revolution you don't want the very to be kind of. in a revolution or in a revolution there is no there is no election whoever strongest and manage to kills their opponents is the de facto leader so whether if these people are ruffins or

not worst the libyan people are stuck with them the real question is going to happen in the next stage economically you know libya is a rich country if and when it can extract its high valued crude oil out and put it if it doesn't have the capital to do it themselves which it doesn't seem like they will they are going to need to rely on foreign oil concerns but then leave the french and the italians who have most of the concessions and got involved it's actually as a quid pro quo in this conflict so that's where the cunt where the problem of its foreign exploitation influence comments comes into play as we saw in iraq going back to the one nine hundred twenty s. and that if the thing is that as long as libyans are in charge things night be ok but libyans aren't going to be in charge if they can't control their own resources but he needs it so far. you know i mean. you know so

far the libyan people with plenty of mistakes in plenty of difficulties to a very long summer is this sort of a ragtag bunch of fighters got themselves organized and got themselves together and you're quite correct with the lie that he is a clan of data to support right because well as well apt absolutely absolutely and and just as the american revolution had a lot of outside support too you can try and smear the libyan air first before it gets under way but the reality. for the libyan efforts so far the libyan people have handled this very well i think they've got an even chance of continuing to handle it well. it's it's premature to prejudge the i think i think history is a very i think i think it's history shows it shows a lot of reason to be worried i mean you can't really take over another country with foreign assistance and then claim that you have full power look at the

northern alliance in afghanistan to tajik dominated factions took over but they've never been able to close the deal the same thing happens and now with shia dominated iraq installed by the united states you know history shows that really in civil war you have to let the factions the the indigenous factions fight things out to a conclusion and that did not happen here there was a lot of foreign interference and so we don't know if the benghazi based rebels can govern this country and bring in and form some form of coalition that will be able to govern and gentlemen we've run out of hair there's little people just started in libya many thanks my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are key so you next time remember crosstalk rules.

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